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Science Forum Index » Language Translation Forum » What is wrong with these people?
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| Mike Lyle |
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:11 pm |
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Harlan Messinger wrote:
Quote: UC wrote:
[...]
First of all, I have never heard anyone 'prove' anything with
'vehemence'.
Perhaps the average German had never heard of anyone "bewiesen" anything
with "Heftigkeit". If the use of unusual wording in the original is
significant, it calls for the same in the translation.
I cannot even imagine what that could mean.
I can. I don't know if that was the intent of the original, but I can
imagine, for example, the guy who studied the activity of H. pylori in
the stomach proving with vehemence that that microbe, not hyperacidity,
really is the cause of many peptic ulcers.
Only dipping into this thread for amusement, I have to remark that one
can't indeed elegantly "prove vehemently" in English. I might
"demonstrate vehemently". I might "prove forcibly" (or perhaps I mean
"forcefully". Or perhaps they're equally valid but different.). I might
"announce a proof in violent terms". If whatever-it-was had been
universally accepted I might "prove shockingly"; but vehemence and such
belong to the expression, not to the proof.
(The bloke who revealed H.pylori as cause of such ulcers did indeed use
violence (_Heftigkeit_): like many medical researchers, he inflicted
the condition on himself by swallowing a beaker of the stuff. That
could have got him locked away for assault occasioning actual and
grievous bodily harm in any civilized court if he'd done it to somebody
else. I understand it was quite hard to keep it down.)
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Mike. |
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| Mike Lyle |
| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:26 pm |
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Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
[...]
Quote: Talking about its rarity isn't exactly relevant - how many people
actually use the word "ponder" in everyday speech?
¿Qué? I'm going to have to start reading these UC threads if they
throw up so many fascinating eccentricities. Are you just being
rhetorical, or is the unremarkable verb "ponder" _really_ rare in your
circles?
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Mike. |
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| Alan Crozier |
| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:59 pm |
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"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1167607616.134075.179080@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
[...]
Quote: Talking about its rarity isn't exactly relevant - how many people
actually use the word "ponder" in everyday speech?
¿Qué? I'm going to have to start reading these UC threads if they
throw up so many fascinating eccentricities. Are you just being
rhetorical, or is the unremarkable verb "ponder" _really_ rare in your
circles?
Yes, Mike,
I would say that, if you have grown up in Ireland, as both Einde and I
have, then the word "ponder" is not an active part of your vocabulary.
Alan |
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| UC |
| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:22 pm |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
Quote: Harlan Messinger wrote:
UC wrote:
[...]
First of all, I have never heard anyone 'prove' anything with
'vehemence'.
Perhaps the average German had never heard of anyone "bewiesen" anything
with "Heftigkeit". If the use of unusual wording in the original is
significant, it calls for the same in the translation.
I cannot even imagine what that could mean.
I can. I don't know if that was the intent of the original, but I can
imagine, for example, the guy who studied the activity of H. pylori in
the stomach proving with vehemence that that microbe, not hyperacidity,
really is the cause of many peptic ulcers.
Only dipping into this thread for amusement, I have to remark that one
can't indeed elegantly "prove vehemently" in English.
Thank you for your agreement.
Quote: I might
"demonstrate vehemently". I might "prove forcibly" (or perhaps I mean
"forcefully". Or perhaps they're equally valid but different.). I might
"announce a proof in violent terms". If whatever-it-was had been
universally accepted I might "prove shockingly"; but vehemence and such
belong to the expression, not to the proof.
Precisely.
Quote:
(The bloke who revealed H.pylori as cause of such ulcers did indeed use
violence (_Heftigkeit_): like many medical researchers, he inflicted
the condition on himself by swallowing a beaker of the stuff. That
could have got him locked away for assault occasioning actual and
grievous bodily harm in any civilized court if he'd done it to somebody
else. I understand it was quite hard to keep it down.)
--
Mike. |
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| Odysseus |
| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:47 am |
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In article <1167140023.409542.271510@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
"UC" <uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
Quote:
You 'undponderingly' make my point for me....
Not only is 'ponder' rarely used, the adjective 'unpondering' is
exceedingly rare, and 'unponderingly' seems to have been used only
ONCE, in this text by the academic (spit) West.
Aristophanes' Greek word _aperimerimnos_ seems to be similarly rare; the
instance in question, at line 135 of _Clouds_, is its sole attestation
from the Perseus corpus.
Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the word would have been
equally unfamiliar to contemporary Athenian theatre-goers (but formed
from equally recognizable elements) as "unponderingly" is to modern
readers of English, would that change your opinion of the translation's
aptness?
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Odysseus |
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| UC |
| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:31 am |
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Odysseus wrote:
Quote: In article <1167140023.409542.271510@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
"UC" <uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com> wrote:
snip
You 'undponderingly' make my point for me....
Not only is 'ponder' rarely used, the adjective 'unpondering' is
exceedingly rare, and 'unponderingly' seems to have been used only
ONCE, in this text by the academic (spit) West.
Aristophanes' Greek word _aperimerimnos_ seems to be similarly rare; the
instance in question, at line 135 of _Clouds_, is its sole attestation
from the Perseus corpus.
Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the word would have been
equally unfamiliar to contemporary Athenian theatre-goers (but formed
from equally recognizable elements) as "unponderingly" is to modern
readers of English, would that change your opinion of the translation's
aptness?
Not one whit. It seems to be beyond West's capabilities to create a
pompus, self-righteous 'voice' for his character. He attempts in one
word, what should be done by an entire style. That's what is so
infuriating about this episode. The character needs a voice, an
identity, and one ill-chosen word will simply not do, not at all.
Like many academics today, he has not a creative bone in his body. He
is inept and incompetent (at least in this vein). He should never make
another translation or write about translation ever again.
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