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Science Forum Index » Engineering - Joining (Welding) Forum » Tig wleder, new vs used, miller vs lincoln
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| Too_Many_Tools |
 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:45 pm |
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Guest
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Well, I am a guy who likes to cover my bets....in almost all cases it
is cheaper for me to fix things than to have the manufacturer do it.
While the touch panels are cheaper for the manufacturer to make and
sell, it you ever have to repair one it is much more expensive to
replace than a switch or a pot. You say you never will...well welding
splatter or a unintended dent can render your welder inoperable in a
moment.
As a rule the more the electronics, the less likely it will be running
years from now. The reason why transformer based welders last "forever"
is that there is little to go wrong and when it does, you can fix it
yourself (i.e. a fan or switch goes out).
Now on TIG welders where you do need more electronics to get the job
done, the same is true. The transformer based welders while costing
more to manufacture have less to go wrong. The down side is that they
are heavy and consume more power. The inverters are lighter, use less
power and are very expensive to fix. Many inverters are sold before
their warranties end by users so they are not stuck with the repair
costs..think of it as "flippng welders"...which can easily cost more
than a new welder....aka as "throwaway welders".
So as they say...choose your poison.
In my case, I chose to buy a late model SD180 to hedge my bet since for
a home welder it would see infrequent use and I wanted to keep the
overall cost (initial buy in, depreciation, repairs) low and
portability and power usage was not a significant factor.
I had purchased my SD180 assuming that Miller would support it...and
the pulser story says otherwise. I have heard that they have
discontinued some of its components...we'll see if and when I need
repairs in the future if that is true.
The SD200 with builtin pulser means that if and when the welder needs
repair, you will be at the mercy of Miller, their sporadic support
system and their world famous "gouge the customer till he bleeds"
repair costs.
As an example I considered a number of used Miller 250 Synchrowave
welders (excellent welders when they work) with "minor" problems...and
after I got the repair estimates from Miller...WOW...quickly decided
against buying them. It is very easy to spend more on fixing a Miller
welder that has a "few problems" than to buy a new unit. Coincidence? I
think not. It is apparent to me that Miller (and I suspect their
competitors also) are using excessive repair costs to motivate the
public to buy new product. I would keep this in mind if you are offered
a "good deal" in an used welder...be sure to know the complete cost
including repairs before signing that check.
I look forward to hearing other opinions.
Good luck with the search.
TMT
Rozamo wrote:
Quote: Thanks for all the replies, I will be slightly more specific now,
although the replies have made my decision more difficult, now I am
thinking about portability (I had been loking at transformers only).
I have been looking at the Syncrowave 200 and as many of you have
pointed out it is nice to know that they are including the pulser
capabilities on the new models (certainly a pulser will help until I
have the appropiate technique). My concern is with all the electronics
involved, are this machines reliable or is it better to have knobs as
the old ones.
The other machine I have been looking at is a Lincoln Square Wave 300,
which they don't make any more. The school that I went to have one and
it is a really nice machine, pulser included. It looks more solid than
the Syncrowave but it is a lot heavier.
I haven't looked at inverters but they certainly look nice, the only
'but' with them is that the ones with AC capabilities are way more than
what I have to spend. I will do more research so these haven't been
discarded yet.
Any comments on these two models, any issues?
Thanks again,
Rodrigo |
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| Ignoramus9726 |
| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:22 pm |
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On 12 Jan 2007 11:45:36 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: As a rule the more the electronics, the less likely it will be running
years from now. The reason why transformer based welders last "forever"
is that there is little to go wrong and when it does, you can fix it
yourself (i.e. a fan or switch goes out).
Now on TIG welders where you do need more electronics to get the job
done, the same is true. The transformer based welders while costing
more to manufacture have less to go wrong. The down side is that they
are heavy and consume more power.
they consume more power because the manufacturers are too cheap to put
in a separate transformer for logic circuitry and a contactor to
switch on the transformer when needed. (which is what I did with my
CyberTig). It is now quieter, cooler and consumes less power when not
actually welding.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
i |
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| Too_Many_Tools |
| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:21 pm |
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Guest
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Quote:
they consume more power because the manufacturers are too cheap to put
in a separate transformer for logic circuitry and a contactor to
switch on the transformer when needed. (which is what I did with my
CyberTig). It is now quieter, cooler and consumes less power when not
actually welding.
Wow Ig....that is a darn good idea!
I wish I had thought of it first.
For those of us with HIGH electrical costs, that is a mod definitely
worth doing since most welding time is setup with the welder being
idle.
Care to supply the details for the mod?
My guess is that you switch the primary side of the transformer and
have a remote switch at the electrode holder.
TMT
Ignoramus9726 wrote:
Quote: On 12 Jan 2007 11:45:36 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
As a rule the more the electronics, the less likely it will be running
years from now. The reason why transformer based welders last "forever"
is that there is little to go wrong and when it does, you can fix it
yourself (i.e. a fan or switch goes out).
Now on TIG welders where you do need more electronics to get the job
done, the same is true. The transformer based welders while costing
more to manufacture have less to go wrong. The down side is that they
are heavy and consume more power.
they consume more power because the manufacturers are too cheap to put
in a separate transformer for logic circuitry and a contactor to
switch on the transformer when needed. (which is what I did with my
CyberTig). It is now quieter, cooler and consumes less power when not
actually welding.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
i |
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| Ignoramus9726 |
| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:49 pm |
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Guest
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On 12 Jan 2007 16:21:31 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
they consume more power because the manufacturers are too cheap to put
in a separate transformer for logic circuitry and a contactor to
switch on the transformer when needed. (which is what I did with my
CyberTig). It is now quieter, cooler and consumes less power when not
actually welding.
Wow Ig....that is a darn good idea!
I wish I had thought of it first.
For those of us with HIGH electrical costs, that is a mod definitely
worth doing since most welding time is setup with the welder being
idle.
Care to supply the details for the mod?
It is very simple. The welder has one little transformer for supplying the
logic board, etc. (whish is a cubloc microcontroller, programmed in
BASIC, that I put in). When the logic board decides that it is time to
start welding, it turns on power to the main big transformer via
contactor on primary side.
I mainly did it for noise and heat reasons.
Quote: My guess is that you switch the primary side of the transformer and
have a remote switch at the electrode holder.
It is more than that, since tig has preflow delay, etc.
i
Quote: TMT
Ignoramus9726 wrote:
On 12 Jan 2007 11:45:36 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
As a rule the more the electronics, the less likely it will be running
years from now. The reason why transformer based welders last "forever"
is that there is little to go wrong and when it does, you can fix it
yourself (i.e. a fan or switch goes out).
Now on TIG welders where you do need more electronics to get the job
done, the same is true. The transformer based welders while costing
more to manufacture have less to go wrong. The down side is that they
are heavy and consume more power.
they consume more power because the manufacturers are too cheap to put
in a separate transformer for logic circuitry and a contactor to
switch on the transformer when needed. (which is what I did with my
CyberTig). It is now quieter, cooler and consumes less power when not
actually welding.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
i
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| Too_Many_Tools |
| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:34 am |
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Guest
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Thanks Ig....I have a number of welders which will be getting the Ig
Mod. ;<)
TMT
Ignoramus9726 wrote:
Quote: On 12 Jan 2007 16:21:31 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
they consume more power because the manufacturers are too cheap to put
in a separate transformer for logic circuitry and a contactor to
switch on the transformer when needed. (which is what I did with my
CyberTig). It is now quieter, cooler and consumes less power when not
actually welding.
Wow Ig....that is a darn good idea!
I wish I had thought of it first.
For those of us with HIGH electrical costs, that is a mod definitely
worth doing since most welding time is setup with the welder being
idle.
Care to supply the details for the mod?
It is very simple. The welder has one little transformer for supplying the
logic board, etc. (whish is a cubloc microcontroller, programmed in
BASIC, that I put in). When the logic board decides that it is time to
start welding, it turns on power to the main big transformer via
contactor on primary side.
I mainly did it for noise and heat reasons.
My guess is that you switch the primary side of the transformer and
have a remote switch at the electrode holder.
It is more than that, since tig has preflow delay, etc.
i
TMT
Ignoramus9726 wrote:
On 12 Jan 2007 11:45:36 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
As a rule the more the electronics, the less likely it will be running
years from now. The reason why transformer based welders last "forever"
is that there is little to go wrong and when it does, you can fix it
yourself (i.e. a fan or switch goes out).
Now on TIG welders where you do need more electronics to get the job
done, the same is true. The transformer based welders while costing
more to manufacture have less to go wrong. The down side is that they
are heavy and consume more power.
they consume more power because the manufacturers are too cheap to put
in a separate transformer for logic circuitry and a contactor to
switch on the transformer when needed. (which is what I did with my
CyberTig). It is now quieter, cooler and consumes less power when not
actually welding.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
i
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| Ignoramus2100 |
| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:09 pm |
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Guest
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On 12 Jan 2007 21:34:09 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: Thanks Ig....I have a number of welders which will be getting the Ig
Mod. ;<)
It made a big difference to me in terms of noise and general
unpleasantness. i am glad that you like it.
i
Quote: TMT
Ignoramus9726 wrote:
On 12 Jan 2007 16:21:31 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
they consume more power because the manufacturers are too cheap to put
in a separate transformer for logic circuitry and a contactor to
switch on the transformer when needed. (which is what I did with my
CyberTig). It is now quieter, cooler and consumes less power when not
actually welding.
Wow Ig....that is a darn good idea!
I wish I had thought of it first.
For those of us with HIGH electrical costs, that is a mod definitely
worth doing since most welding time is setup with the welder being
idle.
Care to supply the details for the mod?
It is very simple. The welder has one little transformer for supplying the
logic board, etc. (whish is a cubloc microcontroller, programmed in
BASIC, that I put in). When the logic board decides that it is time to
start welding, it turns on power to the main big transformer via
contactor on primary side.
I mainly did it for noise and heat reasons.
My guess is that you switch the primary side of the transformer and
have a remote switch at the electrode holder.
It is more than that, since tig has preflow delay, etc.
i
TMT
Ignoramus9726 wrote:
On 12 Jan 2007 11:45:36 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
As a rule the more the electronics, the less likely it will be running
years from now. The reason why transformer based welders last "forever"
is that there is little to go wrong and when it does, you can fix it
yourself (i.e. a fan or switch goes out).
Now on TIG welders where you do need more electronics to get the job
done, the same is true. The transformer based welders while costing
more to manufacture have less to go wrong. The down side is that they
are heavy and consume more power.
they consume more power because the manufacturers are too cheap to put
in a separate transformer for logic circuitry and a contactor to
switch on the transformer when needed. (which is what I did with my
CyberTig). It is now quieter, cooler and consumes less power when not
actually welding.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
i
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| Brent |
| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:25 pm |
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Guest
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Hey IG
As another suggestion Have you thought of adding in PF correction too?
if you already are switching the primary load on only when its loaded
then using the same primary contactor COULD switch in a PF correction
Capacitor bank and you'd get the lowered power use under power and
vestigial power use when idle?
Just a suggestion for you and TMT unless you already have PF correction
on the cybertig
I'm SURE you would have no problem finding a bunch of appropriate Coke
Can sized capacitors to do this with
Ignoramus9726 wrote:
Quote: On 12 Jan 2007 16:21:31 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
they consume more power because the manufacturers are too cheap to put
in a separate transformer for logic circuitry and a contactor to
switch on the transformer when needed. (which is what I did with my
CyberTig). It is now quieter, cooler and consumes less power when not
actually welding.
Wow Ig....that is a darn good idea!
I wish I had thought of it first.
For those of us with HIGH electrical costs, that is a mod definitely
worth doing since most welding time is setup with the welder being
idle.
Care to supply the details for the mod?
It is very simple. The welder has one little transformer for supplying the
logic board, etc. (whish is a cubloc microcontroller, programmed in
BASIC, that I put in). When the logic board decides that it is time to
start welding, it turns on power to the main big transformer via
contactor on primary side.
I mainly did it for noise and heat reasons.
My guess is that you switch the primary side of the transformer and
have a remote switch at the electrode holder.
It is more than that, since tig has preflow delay, etc.
i
TMT
Ignoramus9726 wrote:
On 12 Jan 2007 11:45:36 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
As a rule the more the electronics, the less likely it will be running
years from now. The reason why transformer based welders last "forever"
is that there is little to go wrong and when it does, you can fix it
yourself (i.e. a fan or switch goes out).
Now on TIG welders where you do need more electronics to get the job
done, the same is true. The transformer based welders while costing
more to manufacture have less to go wrong. The down side is that they
are heavy and consume more power.
they consume more power because the manufacturers are too cheap to put
in a separate transformer for logic circuitry and a contactor to
switch on the transformer when needed. (which is what I did with my
CyberTig). It is now quieter, cooler and consumes less power when not
actually welding.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
i
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| Ignoramus2100 |
| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:16 pm |
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Guest
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On 13 Jan 2007 13:25:16 -0800, Brent <b_philion@hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote: Hey IG
As another suggestion Have you thought of adding in PF correction too?
I have thought about it and decided against it. Besides everything, it
may mess with my phase converter.
Quote: if you already are switching the primary load on only when its loaded
then using the same primary contactor COULD switch in a PF correction
Capacitor bank and you'd get the lowered power use under power and
vestigial power use when idle?
That's the thing, it is almost never idle anymore. Either the main
transformer is turned off, or I am welding.
i |
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