Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go
semi-discrete. Need a couple long timers so I am looking at the old
CD4060, hoping to find some in TSSOP stock.

For 5V it states the frequency as 23kHz +/-10%. But the usual formula is
f=1/(2.2*Rx*Cx) and that comes to about 45kHz. I can't imagine these
things to have more than a few ten pF in internal capacitances so this
doesn't compute. Look at the 4th page (page 3-161):

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4060b.pdf

Any ideas why?

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 20:48:27 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:


Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go
semi-discrete. Need a couple long timers so I am looking at the old
CD4060, hoping to find some in TSSOP stock.

For 5V it states the frequency as 23kHz +/-10%. But the usual formula is
f=1/(2.2*Rx*Cx) and that comes to about 45kHz. I can't imagine these
things to have more than a few ten pF in internal capacitances so this
doesn't compute. Look at the 4th page (page 3-161):

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4060b.pdf

Any ideas why?


---
If you're looking for a timer, then you shouldn't be concerned about
frequency, you should be concerned about how long it takes for the
counter's outputs to get to where you want them to be after a reset,
and T ~ 2.2RxCx will give you that, I think.


Guess I'll just hook one up and check it out.

John Fields wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 20:48:27 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:


Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go
semi-discrete. Need a couple long timers so I am looking at the old CD4060,
hoping to find some in TSSOP stock.

For 5V it states the frequency as 23kHz +/-10%. But the usual formula is
f=1/(2.2*Rx*Cx) and that comes to about 45kHz. I can't imagine these things
to have more than a few ten pF in internal capacitances so this doesn't
compute. Look at the 4th page (page 3-161):

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4060b.pdf

Any ideas why?


---
If you're looking for a timer, then you shouldn't be concerned about
frequency, you should be concerned about how long it takes for the
counter's outputs to get to where you want them to be after a reset,
and T ~ 2.2RxCx will give you that, I think.


Guess I'll just hook one up and check it out.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

John Fields wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 20:48:27 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:


Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go
semi-discrete. Need a couple long timers so I am looking at the old
CD4060, hoping to find some in TSSOP stock.

For 5V it states the frequency as 23kHz +/-10%. But the usual formula is
f=1/(2.2*Rx*Cx) and that comes to about 45kHz. I can't imagine these
things to have more than a few ten pF in internal capacitances so this
doesn't compute. Look at the 4th page (page 3-161):

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4060b.pdf

Any ideas why?


---
If you're looking for a timer, then you shouldn't be concerned about
frequency, you should be concerned about how long it takes for the
counter's outputs to get to where you want them to be after a reset,
and T ~ 2.2RxCx will give you that, I think.


Guess I'll just hook one up and check it out.

Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go

semi-discrete. Need a couple long timers so I am looking at the old
CD4060, hoping to find some in TSSOP stock.

For 5V it states the frequency as 23kHz +/-10%. But the usual formula
is f=1/(2.2*Rx*Cx) and that comes to about 45kHz. I can't imagine
these things to have more than a few ten pF in internal capacitances
so this doesn't compute. Look at the 4th page (page 3-161):

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4060b.pdf

Any ideas why?

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 22:04:25 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:


John Fields wrote:


On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 20:48:27 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:



Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go
semi-discrete. Need a couple long timers so I am looking at the old
CD4060, hoping to find some in TSSOP stock.

For 5V it states the frequency as 23kHz +/-10%. But the usual formula is
f=1/(2.2*Rx*Cx) and that comes to about 45kHz. I can't imagine these
things to have more than a few ten pF in internal capacitances so this
doesn't compute. Look at the 4th page (page 3-161):

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4060b.pdf

Any ideas why?


---
If you're looking for a timer, then you shouldn't be concerned about
frequency, you should be concerned about how long it takes for the
counter's outputs to get to where you want them to be after a reset,
and T ~ 2.2RxCx will give you that, I think.



Guess I'll just hook one up and check it out.


---
Excellent!

Reality is the best test, no?


Sure is. But there is always that weird aftertaste when you test a part

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Jfbsh.2597$O02.300@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...

John Fields wrote:


On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 20:48:27 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:



Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go
semi-discrete. Need a couple long timers so I am looking at the old CD4060,
hoping to find some in TSSOP stock.

For 5V it states the frequency as 23kHz +/-10%. But the usual formula is
f=1/(2.2*Rx*Cx) and that comes to about 45kHz. I can't imagine these things
to have more than a few ten pF in internal capacitances so this doesn't
compute. Look at the 4th page (page 3-161):

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4060b.pdf

Any ideas why?


---
If you're looking for a timer, then you shouldn't be concerned about
frequency, you should be concerned about how long it takes for the
counter's outputs to get to where you want them to be after a reset,
and T ~ 2.2RxCx will give you that, I think.



Guess I'll just hook one up and check it out.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com


Looking at the datasheet on page 3-160, the chart says that the input
capacitance on any input is 5pf (typ) to 7.5pf (max). So that answers the
question about internal capacitances. However, the propagation delays vary over
about 2:1 range, which corresponds to the freq variation you questioned. Would
seem that the delays are the culprits here.

On 19/01/2007 Joerg wrote:


Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go



Why? What's wrong with an AtTiny13 running from its internal 128kHz
oscillator?

Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go
semi-discrete. Need a couple long timers so I am looking at the old
CD4060, hoping to find some in TSSOP stock.

For 5V it states the frequency as 23kHz +/-10%. But the usual formula is
f=1/(2.2*Rx*Cx) and that comes to about 45kHz. I can't imagine these
things to have more than a few ten pF in internal capacitances so this
doesn't compute. Look at the 4th page (page 3-161):

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4060b.pdf

Any ideas why?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:v8ash.2570$O02.2066@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...

Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go
semi-discrete. Need a couple long timers so I am looking at the old
CD4060, hoping to find some in TSSOP stock.

For 5V it states the frequency as 23kHz +/-10%. But the usual formula is
f=1/(2.2*Rx*Cx) and that comes to about 45kHz. I can't imagine these
things to have more than a few ten pF in internal capacitances so this
doesn't compute. Look at the 4th page (page 3-161):

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4060b.pdf

Any ideas why?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com


I know you might not like NXP..... but, for me that was quite painless.

http://www.standardics.nxp.com/products/hef/pdf/hef4060b.pdf

Page 3-160) Figure 12) on the TI Dirty Sheet shows your equation for the
'oscillator' frequency.

Page 5) Figure 4) on the Philips/NXP Data Sheet gives a similar equation.
They also give other useful information........ I like Philips and Siemens
for Data Sheets....

Anyway,

The 'Logic' diagram on the Philips Data Sheet, Page 3) Figure 3) might make
more sense. Notice that there are four flop flips before you get to O3. Flop
Flip 1 divides the 'oscillator' frequency by two before the rest of the
stuff sees it.

The TI Dirty Sheet is referring to a Clock Signal after Flop Flip 1. Fair
enough, the Philips Data Sheet might not specifically make that point but
the TI/Harris logic diagram hides it deeper.

Of course if I knew fuck about logic I would have been able to work it out
from the TI Dirty Sheet. But I don't.......

However, having looked at the two.... the TI Dirty Shit might show Flop Flip
1 connected as a Toggle (JK with inverted inputs which could be a D-type)
before the rest of the counters get to see it.

Genome wrote:

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:v8ash.2570$O02.2066@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...

Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go
semi-discrete. Need a couple long timers so I am looking at the old
CD4060, hoping to find some in TSSOP stock.

For 5V it states the frequency as 23kHz +/-10%. But the usual formula is
f=1/(2.2*Rx*Cx) and that comes to about 45kHz. I can't imagine these
things to have more than a few ten pF in internal capacitances so this
doesn't compute. Look at the 4th page (page 3-161):

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4060b.pdf

Any ideas why?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com


I know you might not like NXP..... but, for me that was quite painless.


Oh, I like them. What I don't like is their marketing "effort" and IMHO
their web site is crummy. Their specsmanship was always superb though.


http://www.standardics.nxp.com/products/hef/pdf/hef4060b.pdf

Page 3-160) Figure 12) on the TI Dirty Sheet shows your equation for the
'oscillator' frequency.

Page 5) Figure 4) on the Philips/NXP Data Sheet gives a similar equation.
They also give other useful information........ I like Philips and
Siemens for Data Sheets....

Anyway,

The 'Logic' diagram on the Philips Data Sheet, Page 3) Figure 3) might
make more sense. Notice that there are four flop flips before you get to
O3. Flop Flip 1 divides the 'oscillator' frequency by two before the rest
of the stuff sees it.


One has to be really, really careful with that stuff. For example Moto/ON
often calls the first output Q4 while others call it Q3. That can really
throw people a curve when they discover that after the layout is done. We
used to have an "anger pad" for such situations. It hung on a wall and
read: In case of an upcoming temper trantrum take one sheet, crumple and
throw into a corner.


The TI Dirty Sheet is referring to a Clock Signal after Flop Flip 1. Fair
enough, the Philips Data Sheet might not specifically make that point but
the TI/Harris logic diagram hides it deeper.

Of course if I knew fuck about logic I would have been able to work it
out from the TI Dirty Sheet. But I don't.......

However, having looked at the two.... the TI Dirty Shit might show Flop
Flip 1 connected as a Toggle (JK with inverted inputs which could be a
D-type) before the rest of the counters get to see it.


They are basically all used as deviders feeding each other. Not the most
modern concept but for a slow timer it's often good enough.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:s9esh.62713$qO4.56356@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...

Genome wrote:


"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:v8ash.2570$O02.2066@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...


Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go
semi-discrete. Need a couple long timers so I am looking at the old
CD4060, hoping to find some in TSSOP stock.

For 5V it states the frequency as 23kHz +/-10%. But the usual formula is
f=1/(2.2*Rx*Cx) and that comes to about 45kHz. I can't imagine these
things to have more than a few ten pF in internal capacitances so this
doesn't compute. Look at the 4th page (page 3-161):

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4060b.pdf

Any ideas why?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com


I know you might not like NXP..... but, for me that was quite painless.


Oh, I like them. What I don't like is their marketing "effort" and IMHO
their web site is crummy. Their specsmanship was always superb though.



http://www.standardics.nxp.com/products/hef/pdf/hef4060b.pdf

Page 3-160) Figure 12) on the TI Dirty Sheet shows your equation for the
'oscillator' frequency.

Page 5) Figure 4) on the Philips/NXP Data Sheet gives a similar equation.
They also give other useful information........ I like Philips and
Siemens for Data Sheets....

Anyway,

The 'Logic' diagram on the Philips Data Sheet, Page 3) Figure 3) might
make more sense. Notice that there are four flop flips before you get to
O3. Flop Flip 1 divides the 'oscillator' frequency by two before the rest
of the stuff sees it.


One has to be really, really careful with that stuff. For example Moto/ON
often calls the first output Q4 while others call it Q3. That can really
throw people a curve when they discover that after the layout is done. We
used to have an "anger pad" for such situations. It hung on a wall and
read: In case of an upcoming temper trantrum take one sheet, crumple and
throw into a corner.



The TI Dirty Sheet is referring to a Clock Signal after Flop Flip 1. Fair
enough, the Philips Data Sheet might not specifically make that point but
the TI/Harris logic diagram hides it deeper.

Of course if I knew fuck about logic I would have been able to work it
out from the TI Dirty Sheet. But I don't.......

However, having looked at the two.... the TI Dirty Shit might show Flop
Flip 1 connected as a Toggle (JK with inverted inputs which could be a
D-type) before the rest of the counters get to see it.


They are basically all used as deviders feeding each other. Not the most
modern concept but for a slow timer it's often good enough.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com


Oh, alright then.

You asked..... the difference between about 45KHz and about 23KHz is about a
factor of two. It's quite possible that 2 is a digital divide by two
so..........

You absolute old patronising bastard you!

Your job interviews must last at least four hours whilst you blither on
about the good old days and a few terminal 'war stories'. Then, having bored
yourself, you'll forget my name as you ask your secretary to dial me a taxi.

Assuming I get through that load of shit and get the job you might just give
me a broken chair and back order a customised bercostat for delivery about
the time your Ronny James manages to lock you up a cupboard so they can sort
out the power supply pins on an LM324.

Your design reviews will be three hours of nodding at your extreme ability
to focus on where to place potentiostat1 on the PCB with a screaming desire
to get out, ignore your input and get the job sorted.

Then you'll probably visit three times a day to ask if any of the resistors
are a slight shade of blue because something went wrong when you used blue
resistors in 1965.

Genome wrote:

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:s9esh.62713$qO4.56356@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...

Genome wrote:


"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:v8ash.2570$O02.2066@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...


Ok, guys, another case where I have to ditch the uC idea and go
semi-discrete. Need a couple long timers so I am looking at the old
CD4060, hoping to find some in TSSOP stock.

For 5V it states the frequency as 23kHz +/-10%. But the usual formula
is f=1/(2.2*Rx*Cx) and that comes to about 45kHz. I can't imagine these
things to have more than a few ten pF in internal capacitances so this
doesn't compute. Look at the 4th page (page 3-161):

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4060b.pdf

Any ideas why?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com


I know you might not like NXP..... but, for me that was quite painless.


Oh, I like them. What I don't like is their marketing "effort" and IMHO
their web site is crummy. Their specsmanship was always superb though.



http://www.standardics.nxp.com/products/hef/pdf/hef4060b.pdf

Page 3-160) Figure 12) on the TI Dirty Sheet shows your equation for the
'oscillator' frequency.

Page 5) Figure 4) on the Philips/NXP Data Sheet gives a similar
equation. They also give other useful information........ I like Philips
and Siemens for Data Sheets....

Anyway,

The 'Logic' diagram on the Philips Data Sheet, Page 3) Figure 3) might
make more sense. Notice that there are four flop flips before you get to
O3. Flop Flip 1 divides the 'oscillator' frequency by two before the
rest of the stuff sees it.


One has to be really, really careful with that stuff. For example Moto/ON
often calls the first output Q4 while others call it Q3. That can really
throw people a curve when they discover that after the layout is done. We
used to have an "anger pad" for such situations. It hung on a wall and
read: In case of an upcoming temper trantrum take one sheet, crumple and
throw into a corner.



The TI Dirty Sheet is referring to a Clock Signal after Flop Flip 1.
Fair enough, the Philips Data Sheet might not specifically make that
point but the TI/Harris logic diagram hides it deeper.

Of course if I knew fuck about logic I would have been able to work it
out from the TI Dirty Sheet. But I don't.......

However, having looked at the two.... the TI Dirty Shit might show Flop
Flip 1 connected as a Toggle (JK with inverted inputs which could be a
D-type) before the rest of the counters get to see it.


They are basically all used as deviders feeding each other. Not the most
modern concept but for a slow timer it's often good enough.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com


Oh, alright then.

You asked..... the difference between about 45KHz and about 23KHz is
about a factor of two. It's quite possible that 2 is a digital divide by
two so..........


Ah, that's what you meant. Could, of course, be but what puzzled me was
the mention of both on the same datasheet. And they mentioned the
oscillator (sans dividers).


You absolute old patronising bastard you!

Your job interviews must last at least four hours whilst you blither on
about the good old days and a few terminal 'war stories'. Then, having
bored yourself, you'll forget my name as you ask your secretary to dial
me a taxi.


Actually, they could last an hour but I asked the people about their
stories. Mine I told later after I hired them ))


Assuming I get through that load of shit and get the job you might just
give me a broken chair and back order a customised bercostat for delivery
about the time your Ronny James manages to lock you up a cupboard so they
can sort out the power supply pins on an LM324.

Your design reviews will be three hours of nodding at your extreme
ability to focus on where to place potentiostat1 on the PCB with a
screaming desire to get out, ignore your input and get the job sorted.

Then you'll probably visit three times a day to ask if any of the
resistors are a slight shade of blue because something went wrong when
you used blue resistors in 1965.


Nah, that was ten years later and what happened was that RF turned a
capacitor from white ceramic into green glass. It was amazing.

So, dinner time and then I'll pour us a cold one...

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com