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Science Forum Index » Bio Evolution Forum » What is the evolutionary explanation of consciousness?
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| Stephen |
 Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:25 pm |
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| Why do we have a conscience? |
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| r norman |
| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:33 am |
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On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:25:14 -0500 (EST), "Stephen"
<stephen63@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: Why do we have a conscience?
Are you asking about consciousness (as in the subject line) or about a
conscience (in the body)? |
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| John Wilkins |
| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:33 am |
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Stephen <stephen63@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: Why do we have a conscience?
We do? Do you have any clear data on this?
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious." |
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| DK |
| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:33 am |
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In article <ep3v6q$oce$1@darwin.ediacara.org>, "Stephen" <stephen63@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: Why do we have a conscience?
No one knows.
I think that if one adopts truly consistent reductionist position,
there is no room for an evolutionary significance of consciousness.
If it is all only an afterthought and the "I" and the feeling of being
in control are nothing but elaborate illusion, then consiousness
does not affect the material world and hence cannot be selected
for or against.
The same argument stands if one tries to narrow the issue by
claiming that consciousness is simply a funky side effect of very
complex biochemical networks of certain kind.
IMHO, there might be some room for evolutionary explanation of
consciousness if one assumes dualist stance (e.g. consciousness
is universal property of everything).
DK |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:33 am |
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Do you want to live in a society of sociopaths? why do we have shyness
or guilt??
to get people to conform to the rules of the group. we dont want chaos.
Stephen wrote:
> Why do we have a conscience? |
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| g |
| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:33 am |
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"Stephen" <stephen63@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ep3v6q$oce$1@darwin.ediacara.org...
Quote: Why do we have a conscience?
Good question for a four year old.
And here are some good answers for a four year old's mommy or daddy:
We just do, that's all.
You'll understand when you grow up.
And here's a good answer for a philosopher or a scientist:
I DON'T KNOW, but why do I get the feeling you think YOU do?
g |
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| Guy A Hoelzer |
| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:33 am |
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I have two answers for you, both of which I think are parts of the complex
truth.
1) We have a conscience because it keeps us from doing things we would later
regret as a consequence of natural selection at the individual level.
2) We have a conscience because it contributes to functioning of our social
organizations as a consequence of natural selection at the group level.
Guy
in article ep3v6q$oce$1@darwin.ediacara.org, Stephen at stephen63@gmail.com
wrote on 1/22/07 7:25 PM:
Quote: Why do we have a conscience?
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| John Edser |
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:38 am |
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Guy A Hoelzer <hoelzer@unr.edu>
Quote: I have two answers for you, both of which I think are parts of the complex
truth.
1) We have a conscience because it keeps us from doing things we would
later
regret as a consequence of natural selection at the individual level.
JE:-
The term "individual level" has to be corrected to "fertile individual
level" simply because genes within infertile individuals cannot be passed on
to another individual until the one they are within becomes fertile.
Quote: 2) We have a conscience because it contributes to functioning of our
social
organizations as a consequence of natural selection at the group level.
JE:-
What do you mean?
1) Selection BY the group acting on just fertile individuals (the Baldwin
effect) where the group is not acting as a _selectee_ just a _selector_.
2) Selection OF the group (i.e. the group does act as a selectee and not
just a selector) by default comparison of the fitness of groups in which
each group fitness is:
i) just the sum of the fitness of each fertile individual which
comprises any one group.
ii) not just the sum of the fitness of each individual which
comprises any one group.
??
Regards,
John Edser
Independent Researcher
edser@ozemail.com.au |
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| John Wilkins |
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:38 am |
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r norman <r_s_norman@_comcast.net> wrote:
Quote: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:25:14 -0500 (EST), "Stephen"
stephen63@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do we have a conscience?
Are you asking about consciousness (as in the subject line) or about a
conscience (in the body)?
According to Shakespeare (and Hamlet) they are the same thing, and doth
make cowards of us all.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious." |
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| Nam Nguyen |
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:38 am |
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John Wilkins wrote:
Quote: Stephen <stephen63@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do we have a conscience?
We do?
Yes, we do. (Assuming we're talking about "consciousness"
and not "conscience".)
Quote: Do you have any clear data on this?
Yes: either your "We do?" question, or my "Yes" answer
is a clear data on consciousness. I mean for however
many billion years that have passed or will come to
pass, the entire universe could never come up with
a short question as yours or answer as mine, without
consciousness.
--
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What we call 'I' is just a swinging door which moves
when we inhale and exhale.
Shunryu Suzuki
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| Anon. |
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:38 am |
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John Wilkins wrote:
Quote: Stephen <stephen63@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do we have a conscience?
We do? Do you have any clear data on this?
Would he allow himself to lie to us?
Bob
--
Bob O'Hara
Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics
P.O. Box 68 (Gustaf Hällströmin katu 2b)
FIN-00014 University of Helsinki
Finland
Telephone: +358-9-191 51479
Mobile: +358 50 599 0540
Fax: +358-9-191 51400
WWW: http://www.RNI.Helsinki.FI/~boh/
Journal of Negative Results - EEB: http://www.jnr-eeb.org |
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| Guy A Hoelzer |
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:09 am |
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in article ep85ip$28s9$1@darwin.ediacara.org, John Edser at
edser@ozemail.com.au wrote on 1/24/07 9:38 AM:
Quote:
Guy A Hoelzer <hoelzer@unr.edu
I have two answers for you, both of which I think are parts of the complex
truth.
1) We have a conscience because it keeps us from doing things we would later
regret as a consequence of natural selection at the individual level.
JE:-
The term "individual level" has to be corrected to "fertile individual
level" simply because genes within infertile individuals cannot be passed on
to another individual until the one they are within becomes fertile.
I agree that offspring produced to function as tools, rather than as
potentially reproductive individuals are not direct players in the evolution
game. They would be like mitochondria in vertebrate males. We might
disagree about offspring with potentially fertile futures, but which do not
survive to maturity.
Quote: 2) We have a conscience because it contributes to functioning of our social
organizations as a consequence of natural selection at the group level.
JE:-
What do you mean?
1) Selection BY the group acting on just fertile individuals (the Baldwin
effect) where the group is not acting as a _selectee_ just a _selector_.
Not this.
Quote: 2) Selection OF the group (i.e. the group does act as a selectee and not
just a selector) by default comparison of the fitness of groups in which
each group fitness is:
i) just the sum of the fitness of each fertile individual which
comprises any one group.
Not this.
Quote: ii) not just the sum of the fitness of each individual which
comprises any one group.
This mechanism would be included in my meaning.
Guy |
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| r norman |
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:09 am |
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On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:38:34 -0500 (EST), j.wilkins1@uq.edu.au (John
Wilkins) wrote:
Quote: r norman <r_s_norman@_comcast.net> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:25:14 -0500 (EST), "Stephen"
stephen63@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do we have a conscience?
Are you asking about consciousness (as in the subject line) or about a
conscience (in the body)?
According to Shakespeare (and Hamlet) they are the same thing, and doth
make cowards of us all.
Unfortunately, the early folios were not peer reviewed before
publication so they can't be used as proper citations. |
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| John Edser |
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:09 am |
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Nam Nguyen namducnguyen@shaw.ca wrote:-
Quote: John Wilkins wrote:
snip
Do you have any clear data on this?
Yes: either your "We do?" question, or my "Yes" answer
is a clear data on consciousness. I mean for however
many billion years that have passed or will come to
pass, the entire universe could never come up with
a short question as yours or answer as mine, without
JE:-
Well argued Nam Nguyen. IMHO this provides the only possible RATIONAL
answer. All others simply enter the black hole of Epimenides Paradox from
which no sense can emerge proving them to be just 100% self contradictory.
In normal parlance absolute self contradictions are regarded as just
hypocrisy. Here is an example: the other day I saw somebody walking along
the street with a large pink badge inscribed with the contradictory
proposition "no badges" :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimenides_paradox
Note that popular Eastern tautologous propositions such as everything is
consciousness so that consciousness is everything remain 100% self
consistent but entirely irrational because an untrue deduction from a
predicate is not at all possible only because the subject and the predicate
remain exactly the same.
Regards,
John Edser
Independent Researcher
edser@ozemail.com.au |
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| John Edser |
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:09 am |
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"Anon." bob.ohara@SOD.OFF.Spammers.helsinki.fi wrote:-
Quote: Why do we have a conscience?
We do? Do you have any clear data on this?
Would he allow himself to lie to us?
JE:-
Hi Bob,
Long-time-no-see.
How can you tell if he was?
Regards,
John Edser
Independent Researcher
edser@ozemail.com.au |
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