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Ale
Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:37 am
Guest
I read about evolutionary game theory, especify the aplication in
population genetics. I did not found real examples of how dynamics
estrategies can change the gene frecuency in any populations like
convincent darwinian text. If you now any good exmple, please tell me.
g
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:46 am
Guest
"Ale" <AlejandroCelani@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eo3bq4$2492$1@darwin.ediacara.org...
Quote:
I read about evolutionary game theory, especify the aplication in
population genetics. I did not found real examples of how dynamics
estrategies can change the gene frecuency in any populations like
convincent darwinian text. If you now any good exmple, please tell me.


Ale,

Greetings. I, too, find game theory interesting. In life, and in nature,
my own experience indicates to me that there seldom are strict limits upon
how events play out.

Take, for example, the fact that there are bees, and butterflies, and
giraffes and elephants...

I am not at all convinced that these diverse "evolved" forms, *necessarily*
got forced into differential lines
of change in their morphologies by *isolation* alone. There are innumerable
examples of something akin to
"random migration" in nature... such that even within a single milieu all
results are not identical.

By that I mean, for example, that if a hundred school children are released
through a single door onto a single playground, they do not all go out to
same part of that schoolyard, nor enter into the same games... nor all enter
into any structured game such as dodge ball or softball or tag. The same
child, on any given number of days, does not even do the same thing every
day.

While it can be said that all the children DO conform to certain limits,
such as obeying a rule, if it exist, to avoid leaving the school yard, by
crossing a street.

Certain choices of behavior, together with certain coincidences, however, do
"lock in" some otherwise unlikely departure from random behavior. For
example, occasionally a child WILL break a rule and cross a street that
borders the school yard. If that child gets struck by an automobile and
crippled for life, that locks in some parameters which cannot be reversed.
If the rule-breaking child gets kidnapped, that can result in an
irreversible
path to deviation from the norm, as well.

We could brainstorm and come up with MANY things that could occur to lock in
a certain direction of future
of a child... some bad, some neither bad nor good, and some good. A child
might, for example, discover a gold nugget in the dirt and be inclined
thereafter to become a prospector after gold...

All these kinds of random parameters and possibilities of irreversible
change... and myriad more kinds... parallel, it seems to me, the ways that
evolutionary changes might occur randomly, with SOME of them locking in
irreversible coincidences... and all without the rigid requirement of
population isolation being causative, and without any strict set of game
parameters or gaming strategies being necessary, either.

Often in theorizing about how things have come about, outside our ability to
observer every increment of change
that has taken place, we are tempted to create imaginary scenarios which are
FAR more restrictive in their
limits, or long-term conditions, than seems to this layman to occur in
nature.

This seeming to me to be the case, I suspect that game theory is somewhat
hyper-theoretical... insofar as its application to some actual evolutionary
ramifications and paths irreversible, once in place...

Speciation could be viewed as a manifestation of an irreversible change.
But game structures and strategics strike me as being somewhat too rigidly
confined to explain in many, if not all cases of speciation hypothesization,
any
constraints which might be that inflexible, or that devoid of randomization
of progression.

However... (and this is ALWAYS the case in speculating about such things)...
I am more than open to being persuaded by any actual examples in which all
other possible explanations have been clearly ruled out.

g
Ale
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:07 am
Guest
Thanks for the info.That very relationated with the texts that I read,
and much better.
I like to find any book with the implication of dynamic estrategies in
the seleccion process like "The case of the bees...." I donīt
now...any example, because i belive that can to rise new things from
this topic, and very applicable to ample range of situations. For
example, redefine the objectives of genetic species improvement, as
electing the species that best for example learn of the environment.
g
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:11 am
Guest
"Ale" <AlejandroCelani@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eobal1$ng9$1@darwin.ediacara.org...
Quote:
Thanks for the info.That very relationated with the texts that I read,
and much better.
I like to find any book with the implication of dynamic estrategies in
the seleccion process like "The case of the bees...." I donīt
now...any example, because i belive that can to rise new things from
this topic, and very applicable to ample range of situations. For
example, redefine the objectives of genetic species improvement, as
electing the species that best for example learn of the environment.


Ale, for me it is always enjoyable to turn an idea over and around, and
examine it from every angle.

Sometimes it seems to me that some of us tend to view things, even in
science, from a view much like a single frame from a motion picture
file. To do so is to get a clear picture... yet a picture that does not
represent the way things behave in a dynamic.

Some *system dynamics* (such as, for example, the mechanical workings
of a reciprocating engine) repeat cycles that vary almost negligibly, while
some other *system dynamics* vary abundantly (such as the U. S. stock
market, or the global cyclings of the balance of trade).

As with many things in science and nature, sometimes it is difficult to
draw a sharp line which circumvents a dynamic. In the case of the
above-mentioned reciprocating engine, casual observation tends to view
a particular engine as having very distinct boundaries between what is a
part of the "system" involved, and what is not. The casual viewer can
see that there is what is the object (the engine) and what is not the object
(everything else). However, the "system" whereby any particular
reciprocating
engine *functions* requires some intervention, such as the putting in of
fuel. Also (as per one definition of the so-called thermodynamic "law" of
entropy) no reciprocating engine converts 100 % of the fuel put into it
into the torque it generates. Some of that energy is dissipated in the form
of heat. Some of that energy goes into degradation (wear and tear on all
the engine's parts, when it operates. And, in a very real sense, an engine
will deteriorate over time whether it is operated, and well-maintained or
it is not.

Thus, the understanding of a given reciprocating engine entails more than
what one sees at a glance: its dependency upon the insertion of fuel (for,
say, one that is gasoline dependent), its friction, its limited life in the
universe as being operated or as not being operated. The wholeness of
the system, thus, has certain immediate and proximate interrelationships
with MORE than just the physical engine. And here I may seem to wax
philosophical, when I say that *ULTIMATELY* a given reciprocating
engine impacts, and is impacted by, all other matter with which it shares
the universe.

Just as is conventional in *applied mathematics* one can treat a "system,"
such as a reciprocating engine as only what of its *system* features are
of useful value to the user, or only what is within the user's ability and
utility of control. That is -- we do not need trace out the full extent of
a system beyond what is practical.

In designing an engine, if it has any round physical parts in it, we must
use Pi. Yet we can never measure Pi precisely, even if we take forever to
calculate it, for it is an infinite series. If we can benefit from
controlling
tolerances among the engine parts to within, say, 5/1000 of an inch, and
this degree of accuracy proves more beneficial than just 6/1000 of an
inch, then, in calculating the dimensions of parts where that is an
important
difference, we calculate, and build parts to such tolerances. (These
figures
are just off the top of the head, and not necessarily applicable to a real
engine. But the principle of "false accuracy" and "more than practical
tolerance controls" are examples of how humans neither can -- nor
practically should -- calculate things out to further extents than is
practical. And, likewise, a system (such as a reciprocating engine) need
not be deemed to be any more than it need be deemed.

And for a non-engineer, it is a useful idea of what a reciprocating engine
system "is" to simply look at one, and view the object as embodying the
entirety of the "system."

One of the progressive themes in the physical sciences is that our human
capabilities of measuring and utilizing things, has entailed ever finer
measurements. Once ships were built using cubits (the length of the
builder's forearm). Space probes, today, must be measured in some of
their parts down to microscopic tolerances.

Nowadays, with channeling tunneling, we can determine such things as
crystal structures of compounds at the molecular level. And, interestingly,
I think, microbes are being harnessed to do things, such as putting coatings
on electronic parts, at thicknesses no tool known to mankind could control.

We are living in a marvelously curious and amazing era, you and I. And I
hope civilization will not be reduced to ashes before we see some marvels
currently beyond our imaginations.

g
dkomo
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:12 pm
Guest
Ale wrote:

Quote:
I read about evolutionary game theory, especify the aplication in
population genetics. I did not found real examples of how dynamics
estrategies can change the gene frecuency in any populations like
convincent darwinian text. If you now any good exmple, please tell me.



Try this:

Evolution and Game Theory Website

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/biology/kprestwi/behavior/ESS/ESS_index_frmset.html

Has a number of Java-based online simulation examples. Enjoy!


--dkomo@cris.com
Ale
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:13 pm
Guest
Thanks again, your reply it amplified the implications, like when I
read the phrase "The hen is not more than the form than has an egg to
make another egg", six years ago.
g
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:13 pm
Guest
Ale,

I have been hoping some other posters to this forum might respond
to your question. And I am surprised none of them has, due to the
fact that some debates have raged over it here in the past. Maybe
they got tired of making the same points over to each other.

Often I try to add something new to a discussion, and do not wish
to seem to be changing the subject, so much as trying to take it
somewhere other the same, tired arguments.

One of the points I have tried to make about game theory (in
mentioning entropy) is that no system I know of is "absolutely
closed." Some models of astro-physics would treat "the universe"
as a closed system and, indeed, some models would treat it as
being all that there is in the infinite reaches of "space" by virtue
of treating "space" not as an infinite place for things to occur in
infinitely open time (as seems intuitive to this poster), but
treating space and time as being nothing more that consequences
of whatever happened which *MAJORITY CURRENT
CONVENTIONS* among astro-physicists. If that model (or
those models, as the case may be) is/are correct, then outside of
the universe there is no time and no space.

As mentioned in another message, my position on what is most
scientifically feasible is that any philosophically literate person
who views himself/herself as also scientifically literate should
get an intellectual death grip on any ONE model which contains
only ONE set of *UNPROVABLE/UNDISPROVABLE
ASSUMPTIONS*. To put it another way, as long as there are
OTHER POSTULATIONAL SETS possible, which enable
other equally logical models to be constructed, there should NOT
(in this layman's humble opinion) be any licensing of majority
opinion. Whereas MOST scientists may find ONE, or A FEW
assumptions about what none of them actually knows empirically
(i.e., cannot prove nor disprove) the REALITY of what goes on
among what is loosely termed "the scientific community" that if
one of their number goes against the opinion of the majority,
he begins to be perceived as a maverick, or an eccentric, or
loose cannon on the deck, or worse.

To say that the majority of scientists find the model of the
"big bang," most intuitive is not a negative remark at all, in this
poster's opinion. HOWEVER, to read that one particular
astro-physicist man and wife team are being *DENIED TIME
ON RADIO TELESCOPES* because they are deemed by their
peers to be too far off course in what they would seek to prove
(and ESPECIALLY when they have made at least one HUGE
contribution to what many of their ... shall we say "former"
peers... DO agree with today... What does THAT suggest to a
dumb old lay thinker such as I?

It suggests that some of the same socio-politico-economic
themes of human nature play out among coalitions of thought
among scientists as play out among those that some scientists
call scientifically illiterate. Note that I do not accuse anyone
of a conscious conspiracy. All I am saying is that if enough
"peers" agree on some one assumption about something that
cannot be (or has not YET been) proved or disproved, they
can become just as convinced they are "on the right track" as
can the most obstinate of uneducated persons.

In this old layman's humble opinion, which he recognizes and
enthusiastically disclaims as BEING an opinion, no scientist
who is honest with himself and with others, should INSIST
that ANY unprovable presumption HE/SHE adopts as being
so intuitive to him/her and agreeing peers is SO likely to be
the only right one, that no model NOT adhering to his/her
and peers' OPINION should be considered. That is not
science.

The progress of science may be homeostatic. It may be
peristaltic. It may be dialectic. It may be incapable in some
instance of relying upon "formal" logic. But one thing that
is NOT science is an insistence upon some assumptions
about unprovable things as being "politically correct."

Aw, now, come on. THAT doesn't happen among scientists,
does it?

So what do I have against scientists? NOTHING. I think
they are GREAT. I just happen to believe that they are
humans, not angels... And even an old naive layman like me
has a right to question whether some of the attempts at
citing game theory may be right. They may even be popular.
They may parallel what CAN be observed empirically about
something going on in genetics. But until some of the
algorithmic parallels are established to be what is actually
going on... perhaps we should focus more on developing
technology and experiments to pin down some of the
details that are coming down the pipeline, but not yet
certain.

UNLESS one might be taking a course under a professor
who is entrenched in some one, or a few, assumptions he
cannot prove, and will grade your test answers accordingly.
No. Wait. There aren't any professors like THAT, are
there???

(:>)

g







"g" <gillawton@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:eogg3q$bpa$1@darwin.ediacara.org...
Quote:

"Ale" <AlejandroCelani@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eobal1$ng9$1@darwin.ediacara.org...
Thanks for the info.That very relationated with the texts that I read,
and much better.
I like to find any book with the implication of dynamic estrategies in
the seleccion process like "The case of the bees...." I donīt
now...any example, because i belive that can to rise new things from
this topic, and very applicable to ample range of situations. For
example, redefine the objectives of genetic species improvement, as
electing the species that best for example learn of the environment.


Ale, for me it is always enjoyable to turn an idea over and around, and
examine it from every angle.

Sometimes it seems to me that some of us tend to view things, even in
science, from a view much like a single frame from a motion picture
file. To do so is to get a clear picture... yet a picture that does not
represent the way things behave in a dynamic.

Some *system dynamics* (such as, for example, the mechanical workings
of a reciprocating engine) repeat cycles that vary almost negligibly,
while
some other *system dynamics* vary abundantly (such as the U. S. stock
market, or the global cyclings of the balance of trade).

As with many things in science and nature, sometimes it is difficult to
draw a sharp line which circumvents a dynamic. In the case of the
above-mentioned reciprocating engine, casual observation tends to view
a particular engine as having very distinct boundaries between what is a
part of the "system" involved, and what is not. The casual viewer can
see that there is what is the object (the engine) and what is not the
object
(everything else). However, the "system" whereby any particular
reciprocating
engine *functions* requires some intervention, such as the putting in of
fuel. Also (as per one definition of the so-called thermodynamic "law" of
entropy) no reciprocating engine converts 100 % of the fuel put into it
into the torque it generates. Some of that energy is dissipated in the
form
of heat. Some of that energy goes into degradation (wear and tear on all
the engine's parts, when it operates. And, in a very real sense, an
engine
will deteriorate over time whether it is operated, and well-maintained or
it is not.

Thus, the understanding of a given reciprocating engine entails more than
what one sees at a glance: its dependency upon the insertion of fuel
(for,
say, one that is gasoline dependent), its friction, its limited life in
the
universe as being operated or as not being operated. The wholeness of
the system, thus, has certain immediate and proximate interrelationships
with MORE than just the physical engine. And here I may seem to wax
philosophical, when I say that *ULTIMATELY* a given reciprocating
engine impacts, and is impacted by, all other matter with which it shares
the universe.

Just as is conventional in *applied mathematics* one can treat a "system,"
such as a reciprocating engine as only what of its *system* features are
of useful value to the user, or only what is within the user's ability and
utility of control. That is -- we do not need trace out the full extent
of
a system beyond what is practical.

In designing an engine, if it has any round physical parts in it, we must
use Pi. Yet we can never measure Pi precisely, even if we take forever to
calculate it, for it is an infinite series. If we can benefit from
controlling
tolerances among the engine parts to within, say, 5/1000 of an inch, and
this degree of accuracy proves more beneficial than just 6/1000 of an
inch, then, in calculating the dimensions of parts where that is an
important
difference, we calculate, and build parts to such tolerances. (These
figures
are just off the top of the head, and not necessarily applicable to a real
engine. But the principle of "false accuracy" and "more than practical
tolerance controls" are examples of how humans neither can -- nor
practically should -- calculate things out to further extents than is
practical. And, likewise, a system (such as a reciprocating engine) need
not be deemed to be any more than it need be deemed.

And for a non-engineer, it is a useful idea of what a reciprocating engine
system "is" to simply look at one, and view the object as embodying the
entirety of the "system."

One of the progressive themes in the physical sciences is that our human
capabilities of measuring and utilizing things, has entailed ever finer
measurements. Once ships were built using cubits (the length of the
builder's forearm). Space probes, today, must be measured in some of
their parts down to microscopic tolerances.

Nowadays, with channeling tunneling, we can determine such things as
crystal structures of compounds at the molecular level. And,
interestingly,
I think, microbes are being harnessed to do things, such as putting
coatings
on electronic parts, at thicknesses no tool known to mankind could
control.

We are living in a marvelously curious and amazing era, you and I. And I
hope civilization will not be reduced to ashes before we see some marvels
currently beyond our imaginations.

g

Gil Lawton
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:51 am
Guest
"Ale" <AlejandroCelani@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eobal1$ng9$1@darwin.ediacara.org...
Quote:
Thanks for the info.That very relationated with the texts that I read,
and much better.
I like to find any book with the implication of dynamic estrategies in
the seleccion process like "The case of the bees...." I donīt
now...any example, because i belive that can to rise new things from
this topic, and very applicable to ample range of situations. For
example, redefine the objectives of genetic species improvement, as
electing the species that best for example learn of the environment.

Ale,


What seems really curious to me, from the standpoint of biological evolution
is the fact that a single human organism is a colony and a hive of bees is a
colony.

Whereas our human cells begin with one (zygote) and -- as subdivisions occur
specializations occur, but the entire colony ends up rather tied together in
a single bundle, while bees end up in several specialized, separate bundled
organisms.

We end up a colony of one bundle, and bees a colony of several.

It's hard for me to picture how these two vastly different colony dynamics
could have evolved from a common mono-cellular organism in the beginning.
That is not to say I would not believe it, if the detailed evolutionary path
of each ever were to become known to us. But I feel very strongly that the
simplistic explanations some have offered as to how this could have occurred
(step by step, with no
glossing over of any increments, an no cute little simplistic model that
merely guesses how such a process MIGHT have happened).

I expect that continuance of today's on-going microbiological research will
yield a lot of helpful "hints," as to how this might have come about. But I
have a strong feeling we will never know for sure how the mechanism worked
millions of years ago when such
different evolutionary paths seem to have occurred.

Specimens of fig wasps, trapped in amber, millions and millions of years
ago, indicate they were very, very similar to fig wasps of today. No doubt
some bees got trapped in amber way back then, too. However, if so, I do not
recall reading about any specific examples.

Nothing is more fun to me than musing about such things. However, I feel
that many theories as to whether, and if so how, RNA and DNA enabled the
details (assuming they did) are largely fanciful guesses.

g
 
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