On Jan 29, 5:25 pm, "Chapstick" <chapst...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
"nickname" <alas_my_lo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1169753750.258866.38560@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Chap,

Toba: see tiger bottleneck also.

thx... have been reading a bit on that now...



Homo & All great apes construct "woven" nests, no lesser apes do, nor
do any monkeys or other primates AFAIK.

Hominoid Nest building may have originated with reed bundle floating
(either mobile rafts or immobile reed mounds) in wetlands, single-use
(due to water absorption) continued when they became more arboreal,
discarding nightly tree-nests.

perhaps. but then wouldn't we find more hss characteristics in gorilla
and
pan?

No, Hss didn't exist at that time. AFAICT, The last common ancestor of
the gibbon, siamang, gorilla, orang, chimp, human, apiths, myocene
apes was a part-time climbing/ part-time floating/wading wetlands
dweller, somewhat like a macaque, nesting in simply woven/ bundled
reed nests, possibly using large water bird nests and adding more
reeds around the circumference, providing insulation, camouflage and
floating protection from large crocs and cats. Was it tidal, seasonal
flooding or neither? Mainly tidal, around estuarine areas AFAICT.

that is, if the significant hss characteristics were shaped from
contact with water. (i have no strong opinion on that one way or the
other... rather... i am still open to what the evidence reveals.)
whatever the cause, that nest building is what leads directly to our
building of dwellings in this day and age.
chimps, by the way, do not poop in their nests but will poop over the
edge (Re: Jane Goodall) except when severely ill.
when i have encountered bundles of reeds at the water's edge, they
have
tended to be rather on the stinky side, and have a bit of flies and gnats
working it. however, there were also crabs, too. But this is a good
idea... good thinking!... and I would like to hear more about what you
beleive about the beginning of nest building. thanks...



Hominids (pre-Homo and Homo esp.) may have been constructing watercraft
(dug-outs) from downed river trees, with or without fire, in
association with hand-axes (found mainly at waterside and near
quarries), for a million+ years. Oldest known dug-out wood
evidence:9kya Korean.

Most reptiles have spherical eggs (normal for fish, amphibs too.), most
birds have ovoid eggs, this indicates that birds went through a
cliff-dwelling bottleneck as round eggs roll off cliffs, ovoid eggs
usually won't, natural selection resulted in modern tree-dwelling birds
laying ovoid eggs in nests.

I think that ovoid eggs predate the K-T boundary and were laid by some
dinosaurs? ... and nope, i haven't done any hunting with dogs and a
boat.
--chap

The dinos with ovoid eggs were cliff nesters and some became the first
birds. A brontasurus would not have ovoid eggs IMO.

I wrote a good brief article on nests, eggs and K-T here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT/message/39209

Dug-outs, ducks, decoys, bola-nets, retrieving sighthound swimming
hairless mohawk dogs, and pre-Inca coastal Peruvians fit a pattern of
hunting & gathering. Kinda neat.
DDeden


Chap, (or anyone), ever do any duck-hunting with a dog and a boat?

See AAT for more info.
DD

On Jan 22, 6:47 pm, "Chapstick" <chapst...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
"Chapstick" <chapst...@nc.rr.com> wrote in
messagenews:45b570fd$0$28102$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

my own snippett from an earlier thread:
"To summarize what I am trying to think... I am interested in a sort
of
coherent, complex & dynamic, timeline of human development. I think
we
all want that. How did we become this thinking being? and not just
another
chimp? Does the chimp "think?" and etc."

and this timeline from sap (Charles and Phillip):
abbreviations:
LCA = Last Common Ancestor (with Pan)
PA = PaleoAnthropology
~ = about
mya = million years ago
kya = thousand years ago (this in preference to using BC)
HN = Homo Neanderthal...
hss = us, modern humans

225 mya = evolution of mammals during the Triassic
65.5 mya = the K-T boundary... extinction of dinosaurs, Cf. the
Chicxulub
structure on the Yucatan
~16 mya = pongoids split into orangutangs/hominoids (gorilla, pan,
homo)
~10 mya = gorilla/pan-homo split
~ 8 mya = pan/homo split (ie, our LCA was 5-9 mya)
4.5 mya = Ramidus (an intermediate??)
3.5 mya = early afarensis (Lucy) (apiths)
2.5 - 1.8 mya, = homo erectus (currently believed to be in our line)
~600 kya = Neanderthal/Homo sapien split (or 230 kya)
400 kya - various African erectoids.
~120 kya = something happens to make us "more human". (this date
fluctuates between 200 kya and 70 kya).*
60 kya = presumed that humans used a boat to arrive in Australia
40 kya = "explosion" into Hss...Cro-Magnon cultures expand
~30 kya = Neanderthals extinct.**
~25 kya = remnant erectoids of Austro-Asia go extinct
14.5 kya = Clovis culture Native Americans enter North America.
10 kya = invention of writing (this took until 7 kya to solidify)
4.5 kya = pyramids built

* one could say that between 180 kya and 120 kya, "a predisposition
for
human culture distinct from other hominoids evolved." --Phillip D.
** the first presumed entry of modern humans into Europe, then the
domain
of the Neanderthal, was about 43kya. The last known HN fossils are
from
Vindija in Croatia dated between 28-29 kya.

and this little snippett about the K-T extinction from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous-Tertiary_extinction_event
"Omnivores, insectivores and carrion-eaters appear to have survived
quite
well. It is worth noting that at the end of the Cretaceous there
seem
to
have been no purely vegetarian or carnivorius mammals. Many mammals,
and
the birds which survived the extinction, fed on insects, larvae,
worms,
snails etc., which in turn fed on dead plant matter. So they
survived
the
collapse of plant-based food chains because they lived in
"detritus-based"
food chains."
"No land animal larger than a cat survived."

Any strong disagreements about this data?

By the way, I think it of some interest that as far back as 16 mya,
our
"line" was into some sort of nest-building, since the gorilla build
a
nest
every night & we share that trait.
--chapThese dates are rather significant too, Re: the Toba eruption
74
kya.http://j.dollan.home.bresnan.net/TLU01.html

80,000 BP: The ancestors of all non-African peoples are believed
to
have migrated from Africa as a single population. October 25, 2005
74,000 BP: The Toba Caldera erupts in its most recent
explosion,
spewing out 2,800 cubic kilometers of material, and thus forming the
Young
Toba Tuff. This eruption is believed to have caused a genetic
bottleneck
in
Humans, due to the resulting extreme climatic conditions. October 25,
2005
71,000 BP: The documented time of the Human genetic bottleneck,
believed to have been caused by the Toba eruption. The Human
population
in
the world is thought to have fallen to as few as 15,000 individuals.
In
short, Humans nearly became extinct. October 25, 2005

The Deccan traps of India were the rebound from the Yucatan impact.

Same thing if a ball hits a wall, both the front and rear of the ball
squish.

"nickname" <alas_my_lo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1170201694.697271.325740@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...



On Jan 29, 5:25 pm, "Chapstick" <chapst...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
"nickname" <alas_my_lo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1169753750.258866.38560@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Chap,

Toba: see tiger bottleneck also.

thx... have been reading a bit on that now...

Homo & All great apes construct "woven" nests, no lesser apes do, nor
do any monkeys or other primates AFAIK.

Hominoid Nest building may have originated with reed bundle floating
(either mobile rafts or immobile reed mounds) in wetlands, single-use
(due to water absorption) continued when they became more arboreal,
discarding nightly tree-nests.

perhaps. but then wouldn't we find more hss characteristics in gorilla
and
pan?

No, Hss didn't exist at that time. AFAICT, The last common ancestor of
the gibbon, siamang, gorilla, orang, chimp, human, apiths, myocene
apes was a part-time climbing/ part-time floating/wading wetlands
dweller, somewhat like a macaque, nesting in simply woven/ bundled
reed nests, possibly using large water bird nests and adding more
reeds around the circumference, providing insulation, camouflage and
floating protection from large crocs and cats. Was it tidal, seasonal
flooding or neither? Mainly tidal, around estuarine areas AFAICT.

O, well of course hss didn't exist then... and in fact... it appears that
our LCA with those animals ("the gibbon, siamang, gorilla, orang, chimp,
human, apiths, myocene apes") may have been of Eurasian origin about 17 mya.
This is cited in "Scientific American" "Becoming Human" Sept 19, 2006 pages
4-13. Well... sorta'.. the article says that about 100 different ape
species existed, and there was a lot of commerce back and forth from Africa
and Eurasia... it is not a clean picture, like most of our fossil records.
heck... i will type in the part in the box on page 6:
"- Only five ape genera exist today.... Between 22 million and 5.5 million
years ago, in contrast, dozens of ape genera lived throughout the Old World.
"- Scientists have long assumed that the ancestors of modern African apes
and humans evolved solely in Africa. But a growing body of evidence
indicates that although Africa spawned the first apes, Eurasia was the
birthplace of the great ape and human clade.
"- The fossil record suggests that living great apes and humans are
descended from two ancient Eurasian ape lineages: one represented by
'Sivapithecus' from Asia (the probable forebearer of the orangutan) and the
other by 'Dryopithecus' from Europe (the likely ancestor of African apes and
humans)."
The body of the article says that both of these ancestors apparently had
adaptations for suspensory locomotion....although 'Siva' locomotion is less
clear, and perhaps was also quadripedal as well. "In all likelihood,
'Sivapithecus' employed a mode of locomotion for which no modern analoque
exists -- the product of its own unique ecological circumstances."

am enjoying your stuff about nest building and will read and write more
about that later.
--chap

that is, if the significant hss characteristics were shaped from
contact with water. (i have no strong opinion on that one way or the
other... rather... i am still open to what the evidence reveals.)
whatever the cause, that nest building is what leads directly to our
building of dwellings in this day and age.
chimps, by the way, do not poop in their nests but will poop over the
edge (Re: Jane Goodall) except when severely ill.
when i have encountered bundles of reeds at the water's edge, they
have
tended to be rather on the stinky side, and have a bit of flies and gnats
working it. however, there were also crabs, too. But this is a good
idea... good thinking!... and I would like to hear more about what you
beleive about the beginning of nest building. thanks...

Hominids (pre-Homo and Homo esp.) may have been constructing watercraft
(dug-outs) from downed river trees, with or without fire, in
association with hand-axes (found mainly at waterside and near
quarries), for a million+ years. Oldest known dug-out wood
evidence:9kya Korean.

Most reptiles have spherical eggs (normal for fish, amphibs too.), most
birds have ovoid eggs, this indicates that birds went through a
cliff-dwelling bottleneck as round eggs roll off cliffs, ovoid eggs
usually won't, natural selection resulted in modern tree-dwelling birds
laying ovoid eggs in nests.

I think that ovoid eggs predate the K-T boundary and were laid by some
dinosaurs? ... and nope, i haven't done any hunting with dogs and a
boat.
--chap

The dinos with ovoid eggs were cliff nesters and some became the first
birds. A brontasurus would not have ovoid eggs IMO.

I wrote a good brief article on nests, eggs and K-T here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT/message/39209

Dug-outs, ducks, decoys, bola-nets, retrieving sighthound swimming
hairless mohawk dogs, and pre-Inca coastal Peruvians fit a pattern of
hunting & gathering. Kinda neat.
DDeden

Chap, (or anyone), ever do any duck-hunting with a dog and a boat?

See AAT for more info.
DD

On Jan 22, 6:47 pm, "Chapstick" <chapst...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
"Chapstick" <chapst...@nc.rr.com> wrote in
messagenews:45b570fd$0$28102$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

my own snippett from an earlier thread:
"To summarize what I am trying to think... I am interested in a sort
of
coherent, complex & dynamic, timeline of human development. I think
we
all want that. How did we become this thinking being? and not just
another
chimp? Does the chimp "think?" and etc."

and this timeline from sap (Charles and Phillip):
abbreviations:
LCA = Last Common Ancestor (with Pan)
PA = PaleoAnthropology
~ = about
mya = million years ago
kya = thousand years ago (this in preference to using BC)
HN = Homo Neanderthal...
hss = us, modern humans

225 mya = evolution of mammals during the Triassic
65.5 mya = the K-T boundary... extinction of dinosaurs, Cf. the
Chicxulub
structure on the Yucatan
~16 mya = pongoids split into orangutangs/hominoids (gorilla, pan,
homo)
~10 mya = gorilla/pan-homo split
~ 8 mya = pan/homo split (ie, our LCA was 5-9 mya)
4.5 mya = Ramidus (an intermediate??)
3.5 mya = early afarensis (Lucy) (apiths)
2.5 - 1.8 mya, = homo erectus (currently believed to be in our line)
~600 kya = Neanderthal/Homo sapien split (or 230 kya)
400 kya - various African erectoids.
~120 kya = something happens to make us "more human". (this date
fluctuates between 200 kya and 70 kya).*
60 kya = presumed that humans used a boat to arrive in Australia
40 kya = "explosion" into Hss...Cro-Magnon cultures expand
~30 kya = Neanderthals extinct.**
~25 kya = remnant erectoids of Austro-Asia go extinct
14.5 kya = Clovis culture Native Americans enter North America.
10 kya = invention of writing (this took until 7 kya to solidify)
4.5 kya = pyramids built

* one could say that between 180 kya and 120 kya, "a predisposition
for
human culture distinct from other hominoids evolved." --Phillip D.
** the first presumed entry of modern humans into Europe, then the
domain
of the Neanderthal, was about 43kya. The last known HN fossils are
from
Vindija in Croatia dated between 28-29 kya.

and this little snippett about the K-T extinction from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous-Tertiary_extinction_event
"Omnivores, insectivores and carrion-eaters appear to have survived
quite
well. It is worth noting that at the end of the Cretaceous there
seem
to
have been no purely vegetarian or carnivorius mammals. Many mammals,
and
the birds which survived the extinction, fed on insects, larvae,
worms,
snails etc., which in turn fed on dead plant matter. So they
survived
the
collapse of plant-based food chains because they lived in
"detritus-based"
food chains."
"No land animal larger than a cat survived."

Any strong disagreements about this data?

By the way, I think it of some interest that as far back as 16 mya,
our
"line" was into some sort of nest-building, since the gorilla build
a
nest
every night & we share that trait.
--chapThese dates are rather significant too, Re: the Toba eruption
74
kya.http://j.dollan.home.bresnan.net/TLU01.html

80,000 BP: The ancestors of all non-African peoples are believed
to
have migrated from Africa as a single population. October 25, 2005
74,000 BP: The Toba Caldera erupts in its most recent
explosion,
spewing out 2,800 cubic kilometers of material, and thus forming the
Young
Toba Tuff. This eruption is believed to have caused a genetic
bottleneck
in
Humans, due to the resulting extreme climatic conditions. October 25,
2005
71,000 BP: The documented time of the Human genetic bottleneck,
believed to have been caused by the Toba eruption. The Human
population
in
the world is thought to have fallen to as few as 15,000 individuals.
In
short, Humans nearly became extinct. October 25, 2005

"Chapstick" <chapst...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message

news:45b570fd$0$28102$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...



my own snippett from an earlier thread:
"To summarize what I am trying to think... I am interested in a sort of
coherent, complex & dynamic, timeline of human development. I think we
all want that. How did we become this thinking being? and not just
another
chimp? Does the chimp "think?" and etc."

and this timeline from sap (Charles and Phillip):
abbreviations:
LCA = Last Common Ancestor (with Pan)
PA = PaleoAnthropology
~ = about
mya = million years ago
kya = thousand years ago (this in preference to using BC)
HN = Homo Neanderthal...
hss = us, modern humans

225 mya = evolution of mammals during the Triassic
65.5 mya = the K-T boundary... extinction of dinosaurs, Cf. the Chicxulub
structure on the Yucatan
~16 mya = pongoids split into orangutangs/hominoids (gorilla, pan, homo)
~10 mya = gorilla/pan-homo split
~ 8 mya = pan/homo split (ie, our LCA was 5-9 mya)
4.5 mya = Ramidus (an intermediate??)
3.5 mya = early afarensis (Lucy) (apiths)
2.5 - 1.8 mya, = homo erectus (currently believed to be in our line)
~600 kya = Neanderthal/Homo sapien split (or 230 kya)
400 kya - various African erectoids.
~120 kya = something happens to make us "more human". (this date
fluctuates between 200 kya and 70 kya).*
60 kya = presumed that humans used a boat to arrive in Australia
40 kya = "explosion" into Hss...Cro-Magnon cultures expand
~30 kya = Neanderthals extinct.**
~25 kya = remnant erectoids of Austro-Asia go extinct
14.5 kya = Clovis culture Native Americans enter North America.
10 kya = invention of writing (this took until 7 kya to solidify)
4.5 kya = pyramids built

* one could say that between 180 kya and 120 kya, "a predisposition for
human culture distinct from other hominoids evolved." --Phillip D.
** the first presumed entry of modern humans into Europe, then the domain
of the Neanderthal, was about 43kya. The last known HN fossils are from
Vindija in Croatia dated between 28-29 kya.

and this little snippett about the K-T extinction from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous-Tertiary_extinction_event
"Omnivores, insectivores and carrion-eaters appear to have survived quite
well. It is worth noting that at the end of the Cretaceous there seem to
have been no purely vegetarian or carnivorius mammals. Many mammals, and
the birds which survived the extinction, fed on insects, larvae, worms,
snails etc., which in turn fed on dead plant matter. So they survived the
collapse of plant-based food chains because they lived in "detritus-based"
food chains."
"No land animal larger than a cat survived."

Any strong disagreements about this data?

The birds that made it may have been sea birds. The land birds seem

By the way, I think it of some interest that as far back as 16 mya, our
"line" was into some sort of nest-building, since the gorilla build a nest
every night & we share that trait.
--chap

my own snippett from an earlier thread:
"To summarize what I am trying to think... I am interested in a sort of
coherent, complex & dynamic, timeline of human development. I think we all
want that. How did we become this thinking being? and not just another
chimp? Does the chimp "think?" and etc."

and this timeline from sap (Charles and Phillip):
abbreviations:
LCA = Last Common Ancestor (with Pan)
PA = PaleoAnthropology
~ = about
mya = million years ago
kya = thousand years ago (this in preference to using BC)
HN = Homo Neanderthal...
hss = us, modern humans

225 mya = evolution of mammals during the Triassic
65.5 mya = the K-T boundary... extinction of dinosaurs, Cf. the Chicxulub
structure on the Yucatan
~16 mya = pongoids split into orangutangs/hominoids (gorilla, pan, homo)
~10 mya = gorilla/pan-homo split
~ 8 mya = pan/homo split (ie, our LCA was 5-9 mya)
4.5 mya = Ramidus (an intermediate??)
3.5 mya = early afarensis (Lucy) (apiths)
2.5 - 1.8 mya, = homo erectus (currently believed to be in our line)
~600 kya = Neanderthal/Homo sapien split (or 230 kya)
400 kya - various African erectoids.
~120 kya = something happens to make us "more human". (this date fluctuates
between 200 kya and 70 kya).*
60 kya = presumed that humans used a boat to arrive in Australia
40 kya = "explosion" into Hss...Cro-Magnon cultures expand
~30 kya = Neanderthals extinct.**
~25 kya = remnant erectoids of Austro-Asia go extinct
14.5 kya = Clovis culture Native Americans enter North America.
10 kya = invention of writing (this took until 7 kya to solidify)
4.5 kya = pyramids built

* one could say that between 180 kya and 120 kya, "a predisposition for
human culture distinct from other hominoids evolved." --Phillip D.
** the first presumed entry of modern humans into Europe, then the domain of
the Neanderthal, was about 43kya. The last known HN fossils are from Vindija
in Croatia dated between 28-29 kya.

and this little snippett about the K-T extinction from Wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous-Tertiary_extinction_event
"Omnivores, insectivores and carrion-eaters appear to have survived quite
well. It is worth noting that at the end of the Cretaceous there seem to
have been no purely vegetarian or carnivorius mammals. Many mammals, and the
birds which survived the extinction, fed on insects, larvae, worms, snails
etc., which in turn fed on dead plant matter. So they survived the collapse
of plant-based food chains because they lived in "detritus-based" food
chains."
"No land animal larger than a cat survived."

Any strong disagreements about this data?

By the way, I think it of some interest that as far back as 16 mya, our
"line" was into some sort of nest-building, since the gorilla build a nest
every night & we share that trait.
--chap

Chap & all,

for info on the transition from Dinosaurs with spheroid eggs to birds
with ovoid eggs, take a quick look at these links:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synergeo/message/32374

I'm guessing that 65ma there was a comet or meteorite impact on the
polar opposite of India, can anyone confirm that? Where , Yucatan?

DD

On Jan 30, 7:52 pm, "Chapstick" <chapst...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
"nickname" <alas_my_lo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1170201694.697271.325740@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...



On Jan 29, 5:25 pm, "Chapstick" <chapst...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
"nickname" <alas_my_lo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1169753750.258866.38560@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Chap,

Toba: see tiger bottleneck also.

thx... have been reading a bit on that now...

Homo & All great apes construct "woven" nests, no lesser apes do,
nor
do any monkeys or other primates AFAIK.

Hominoid Nest building may have originated with reed bundle floating
(either mobile rafts or immobile reed mounds) in wetlands,
single-use
(due to water absorption) continued when they became more arboreal,
discarding nightly tree-nests.

perhaps. but then wouldn't we find more hss characteristics in
gorilla
and
pan?

No, Hss didn't exist at that time. AFAICT, The last common ancestor of
the gibbon, siamang, gorilla, orang, chimp, human, apiths, myocene
apes was a part-time climbing/ part-time floating/wading wetlands
dweller, somewhat like a macaque, nesting in simply woven/ bundled
reed nests, possibly using large water bird nests and adding more
reeds around the circumference, providing insulation, camouflage and
floating protection from large crocs and cats. Was it tidal, seasonal
flooding or neither? Mainly tidal, around estuarine areas AFAICT.

O, well of course hss didn't exist then... and in fact... it appears that
our LCA with those animals ("the gibbon, siamang, gorilla, orang, chimp,
human, apiths, myocene apes") may have been of Eurasian origin about 17
mya.
This is cited in "Scientific American" "Becoming Human" Sept 19, 2006
pages
4-13. Well... sorta'.. the article says that about 100 different ape
species existed, and there was a lot of commerce back and forth from
Africa
and Eurasia... it is not a clean picture, like most of our fossil
records.
heck... i will type in the part in the box on page 6:
"- Only five ape genera exist today.... Between 22 million and 5.5
million
years ago, in contrast, dozens of ape genera lived throughout the Old
World.
"- Scientists have long assumed that the ancestors of modern African apes
and humans evolved solely in Africa. But a growing body of evidence
indicates that although Africa spawned the first apes, Eurasia was the
birthplace of the great ape and human clade.
"- The fossil record suggests that living great apes and humans are
descended from two ancient Eurasian ape lineages: one represented by
'Sivapithecus' from Asia (the probable forebearer of the orangutan) and
the
other by 'Dryopithecus' from Europe (the likely ancestor of African apes
and
humans)."
The body of the article says that both of these ancestors apparently
had
adaptations for suspensory locomotion....although 'Siva' locomotion is
less
clear, and perhaps was also quadripedal as well. "In all likelihood,
'Sivapithecus' employed a mode of locomotion for which no modern analoque
exists -- the product of its own unique ecological circumstances."

am enjoying your stuff about nest building and will read and write more
about that later.
--chap

that is, if the significant hss characteristics were shaped from
contact with water. (i have no strong opinion on that one way or the
other... rather... i am still open to what the evidence reveals.)
whatever the cause, that nest building is what leads directly to
our
building of dwellings in this day and age.
chimps, by the way, do not poop in their nests but will poop over
the
edge (Re: Jane Goodall) except when severely ill.
when i have encountered bundles of reeds at the water's edge, they
have
tended to be rather on the stinky side, and have a bit of flies and
gnats
working it. however, there were also crabs, too. But this is a good
idea... good thinking!... and I would like to hear more about what you
beleive about the beginning of nest building. thanks...

Hominids (pre-Homo and Homo esp.) may have been constructing
watercraft
(dug-outs) from downed river trees, with or without fire, in
association with hand-axes (found mainly at waterside and near
quarries), for a million+ years. Oldest known dug-out wood
evidence:9kya Korean.

Most reptiles have spherical eggs (normal for fish, amphibs too.),
most
birds have ovoid eggs, this indicates that birds went through a
cliff-dwelling bottleneck as round eggs roll off cliffs, ovoid eggs
usually won't, natural selection resulted in modern tree-dwelling
birds
laying ovoid eggs in nests.

I think that ovoid eggs predate the K-T boundary and were laid by some
dinosaurs? ... and nope, i haven't done any hunting with dogs and a
boat.
--chap

The dinos with ovoid eggs were cliff nesters and some became the first
birds. A brontasurus would not have ovoid eggs IMO.

I wrote a good brief article on nests, eggs and K-T here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT/message/39209

Dug-outs, ducks, decoys, bola-nets, retrieving sighthound swimming
hairless mohawk dogs, and pre-Inca coastal Peruvians fit a pattern of
hunting & gathering. Kinda neat.
DDeden

Chap, (or anyone), ever do any duck-hunting with a dog and a boat?

See AAT for more info.
DD

On Jan 22, 6:47 pm, "Chapstick" <chapst...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
"Chapstick" <chapst...@nc.rr.com> wrote in
messagenews:45b570fd$0$28102$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

my own snippett from an earlier thread:
"To summarize what I am trying to think... I am interested in a
sort
of
coherent, complex & dynamic, timeline of human development. I
think
we
all want that. How did we become this thinking being? and not
just
another
chimp? Does the chimp "think?" and etc."

and this timeline from sap (Charles and Phillip):
abbreviations:
LCA = Last Common Ancestor (with Pan)
PA = PaleoAnthropology
~ = about
mya = million years ago
kya = thousand years ago (this in preference to using BC)
HN = Homo Neanderthal...
hss = us, modern humans

225 mya = evolution of mammals during the Triassic
65.5 mya = the K-T boundary... extinction of dinosaurs, Cf. the
Chicxulub
structure on the Yucatan
~16 mya = pongoids split into orangutangs/hominoids (gorilla,
pan,
homo)
~10 mya = gorilla/pan-homo split
~ 8 mya = pan/homo split (ie, our LCA was 5-9 mya)
4.5 mya = Ramidus (an intermediate??)
3.5 mya = early afarensis (Lucy) (apiths)
2.5 - 1.8 mya, = homo erectus (currently believed to be in our
line)
~600 kya = Neanderthal/Homo sapien split (or 230 kya)
400 kya - various African erectoids.
~120 kya = something happens to make us "more human". (this date
fluctuates between 200 kya and 70 kya).*
60 kya = presumed that humans used a boat to arrive in Australia
40 kya = "explosion" into Hss...Cro-Magnon cultures expand
~30 kya = Neanderthals extinct.**
~25 kya = remnant erectoids of Austro-Asia go extinct
14.5 kya = Clovis culture Native Americans enter North America.
10 kya = invention of writing (this took until 7 kya to solidify)
4.5 kya = pyramids built

* one could say that between 180 kya and 120 kya, "a
predisposition
for
human culture distinct from other hominoids evolved." --Phillip
D.
** the first presumed entry of modern humans into Europe, then
the
domain
of the Neanderthal, was about 43kya. The last known HN fossils
are
from
Vindija in Croatia dated between 28-29 kya.

and this little snippett about the K-T extinction from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous-Tertiary_extinction_event
"Omnivores, insectivores and carrion-eaters appear to have
survived
quite
well. It is worth noting that at the end of the Cretaceous there
seem
to
have been no purely vegetarian or carnivorius mammals. Many
mammals,
and
the birds which survived the extinction, fed on insects, larvae,
worms,
snails etc., which in turn fed on dead plant matter. So they
survived
the
collapse of plant-based food chains because they lived in
"detritus-based"
food chains."
"No land animal larger than a cat survived."

Any strong disagreements about this data?

By the way, I think it of some interest that as far back as 16
mya,
our
"line" was into some sort of nest-building, since the gorilla
build
a
nest
every night & we share that trait.
--chapThese dates are rather significant too, Re: the Toba
eruption
74
kya.http://j.dollan.home.bresnan.net/TLU01.html

80,000 BP: The ancestors of all non-African peoples are
believed
to
have migrated from Africa as a single population. October 25, 2005
74,000 BP: The Toba Caldera erupts in its most recent
explosion,
spewing out 2,800 cubic kilometers of material, and thus forming
the
Young
Toba Tuff. This eruption is believed to have caused a genetic
bottleneck
in
Humans, due to the resulting extreme climatic conditions. October
25,
2005
71,000 BP: The documented time of the Human genetic
bottleneck,
believed to have been caused by the Toba eruption. The Human
population
in
the world is thought to have fallen to as few as 15,000
individuals.
In
short, Humans nearly became extinct. October 25, 2005

on 5 Feb 2007 11:38:06 -0800, nickname <alas_my_lo...@yahoo.com> sez:

The Deccan traps of India were the rebound from the Yucatan impact.

No. Extensive vulcanism at Decca had been going on for at least 1my
before Chixculub. It fully brackets the impact.

Same thing if a ball hits a wall, both the front and rear of the ball
squish.

--
==========================================================================
vincent@triumf[munge].ca Pete Vincent
Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.

"nickname" <alas_my_lo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1170703405.450584.214850@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...

Chap & all,

for info on the transition from Dinosaurs with spheroid eggs to birds
with ovoid eggs, take a quick look at these links:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synergeo/message/32374

I'm guessing that 65ma there was a comet or meteorite impact on the
polar opposite of India, can anyone confirm that? Where , Yucatan?

DD

It wasn't the opposite then. Right location.

On Feb 5, 5:08 pm, vinc...@triumfunspam.ca (pete) wrote:
on 5 Feb 2007 11:38:06 -0800, nickname <alas_my_lo...@yahoo.com> sez:

The Deccan traps of India were the rebound from the Yucatan impact.

No. Extensive vulcanism at Decca had been going on for at least 1my
before Chixculub. It fully brackets the impact.

Same thing if a ball hits a wall, both the front and rear of the ball
squish.


Ok, thanks Pete. Do you know how they determined that? Irridium (from
impact) found on higher strata of lava?

on 7 Feb 2007 06:36:37 -0800, nickname <alas_my_lo...@yahoo.com> sez:

On Feb 5, 5:08 pm, vinc...@triumfunspam.ca (pete) wrote:
on 5 Feb 2007 11:38:06 -0800, nickname <alas_my_lo...@yahoo.com> sez:

The Deccan traps of India were the rebound from the Yucatan impact.

No. Extensive vulcanism at Decca had been going on for at least 1my
before Chixculub. It fully brackets the impact.

Same thing if a ball hits a wall, both the front and rear of the ball
squish.

Ok, thanks Pete. Do you know how they determined that? Irridium (from
impact) found on higher strata of lava?

Stratigraphy is implicit in the phrase "fully brackets". Do a couple
of minutes of websearching. There are mountains of info on this, it
is quite well known.

--
==========================================================================
vincent@triumf[munge].ca Pete Vincent
Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.

From our consideration of the frequency of impacts, it appears that a
large meteorite or comet may strike the Earth about every 50 million

...relative to Chicxulub.

Perhaps it was at the time. Someone can look into that if they have
enough time?

between the deccan traps and the chicxulub event. an article in
J.geophys.Res last year and a summary in Eos, suggested otherwise.
essentially they suggested that the deccan was at the antipode of
the impact
which released so much energy it religned the plates somewhat and
focused
the energy at the deccan.

antipodes is well out in the southern Indian ocean, roughly on a
parallel with the middle of the island of Madagascar and over
2,000
miles from the Indian mainland. I'm no geologist, but that
article
sounds to me like a fishing expedition.

The Deccan Traps are UNQUESTIONABLY dated as begin at least in the
Maastrichtian, and maybe even as early as the Santonian. The traps are not
a single mass, but a series of floods. In some of the "intertrappen"
(i.e., between flood) sedimentary layers are Cretaceous dinosaurs,
ammonites, and pollen. Unless the K-T impact could send shockwaves back
through time (on the order of 10 or 20 million years!), it could not have
caused the Deccan Traps.

Not to say that another impact may have caused it, of course. Also, the
K-T impact may have amplified the flow, but a) there's no evidence of that
and b) it was pretty intense already.
.......

On Jan 23, 12:22 am, "deowll" <deo...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
"Chapstick" <chapst...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message

news:45b570fd$0$28102$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...



my own snippett from an earlier thread:
"To summarize what I am trying to think... I am interested in a sort of
coherent, complex & dynamic, timeline of human development. I think we
all want that. How did we become this thinking being? and not just
another
chimp? Does the chimp "think?" and etc."

and this timeline from sap (Charles and Phillip):
abbreviations:
LCA = Last Common Ancestor (with Pan)
PA = PaleoAnthropology
~ = about
mya = million years ago
kya = thousand years ago (this in preference to using BC)
HN = Homo Neanderthal...
hss = us, modern humans

225 mya = evolution of mammals during the Triassic
65.5 mya = the K-T boundary... extinction of dinosaurs, Cf. the
Chicxulub
structure on the Yucatan
~16 mya = pongoids split into orangutangs/hominoids (gorilla, pan,
homo)
~10 mya = gorilla/pan-homo split
~ 8 mya = pan/homo split (ie, our LCA was 5-9 mya)
4.5 mya = Ramidus (an intermediate??)
3.5 mya = early afarensis (Lucy) (apiths)
2.5 - 1.8 mya, = homo erectus (currently believed to be in our line)
~600 kya = Neanderthal/Homo sapien split (or 230 kya)
400 kya - various African erectoids.
~120 kya = something happens to make us "more human". (this date
fluctuates between 200 kya and 70 kya).*
60 kya = presumed that humans used a boat to arrive in Australia
40 kya = "explosion" into Hss...Cro-Magnon cultures expand
~30 kya = Neanderthals extinct.**
~25 kya = remnant erectoids of Austro-Asia go extinct
14.5 kya = Clovis culture Native Americans enter North America.
10 kya = invention of writing (this took until 7 kya to solidify)
4.5 kya = pyramids built

* one could say that between 180 kya and 120 kya, "a predisposition for
human culture distinct from other hominoids evolved." --Phillip D.
** the first presumed entry of modern humans into Europe, then the
domain
of the Neanderthal, was about 43kya. The last known HN fossils are from
Vindija in Croatia dated between 28-29 kya.

and this little snippett about the K-T extinction from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous-Tertiary_extinction_event
"Omnivores, insectivores and carrion-eaters appear to have survived
quite
well. It is worth noting that at the end of the Cretaceous there seem
to
have been no purely vegetarian or carnivorius mammals. Many mammals,
and
the birds which survived the extinction, fed on insects, larvae, worms,
snails etc., which in turn fed on dead plant matter. So they survived
the
collapse of plant-based food chains because they lived in
"detritus-based"
food chains."
"No land animal larger than a cat survived."

Any strong disagreements about this data?

The birds that made it may have been sea birds. The land birds seem
to have
had a feature not found in living birds.



By the way, I think it of some interest that as far back as 16 mya, our
"line" was into some sort of nest-building, since the gorilla build a
nest
every night & we share that trait.
--chap

Its always about water with you wet-apers!!

news:1169753750.258866.38560@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Homo & All great apes construct "woven" nests, no lesser apes do, nor
do any monkeys or other primates AFAIK.
Hominoid Nest building may have originated with reed bundle floating
(either mobile rafts or immobile reed mounds) in wetlands, single-use
(due to water absorption) continued when they became more arboreal,
discarding nightly tree-nests.

Interesting view.
Do you know whether hylobatids construct nests, DD?
Great/lesser ape split ~20-16 Ma?

(I couldn't post here for some reason, so I posted at AAT)