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Roger Lee Bagula
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:56 am
Guest
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: PRE-CLOVIS TOOLS IN MINNESOTA?
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:36:57 -0600
From: Topiltzin-2091@webtv.net
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology.mesoamerican


Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old
(AP) Walker, Minn. Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a
hill in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to 14,000 years
old, according to a published report.
From the rough stone tools, archaeologists are speculating that
"we're looking at certainly the relatively earliest occupants of the
North American continent," biologist and archaeologist Matt Mattson said
in a Star Tribune of Minneapolis report Thursday night. He worked on the
project for the Leech Lake Heritage Sites Program, which is based near
Cass Lake.
Britta Bloomberg, Minnesota's deputy historic preservation officer, said
it may be among the oldest known archaeological sites in North and South
America. A half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and others who
have examined the site all said the artifacts are genuine, she said.
The stone tools were found while archaeologists were investigating the
path of a road where the city is planning to expand for a community
center, housing and businesses.
Archaeologists found 50 or more objects while digging through an area of
about 50 square yards. The artifacts ranged from large hammer stones to
small hand-held scrapers.
Mattson said the objects were found underneath a band of rock and gravel
that appeared to have been deposited by melting glaciers and then
covered by windblown sediment, Mather said.
David Mather, state archaeologist for the National Register of Historic
Places, said the find "is something off our radar. We didn't think it
was even possible in Minnesota."
"(This) could be a real watershed for understanding Minnesota's
history," he said.
Mather said the site appears to be "much older" than the Clovis era of
finely made spear points that defines the paleo-Indian period.
The find is "startling enough that appropriate response from every
archaeologist and glacial geologist is skepticism." But, he added, a
half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and others who have examined
the site all say the artifacts are genuine.
Human remains, wood or textiles, if there were any, would have dissolved
long ago in the acidic soil. The oldest human remains found in Minnesota
belonged to the Browns Valley Man, who lived about 9,000 years ago. His
remains were discovered in 1933 in a gravel pit near the town of Browns
Valley in western Minnesota.
Walker is about 190 miles northwest of the Twin Cities.

(© 2007 The Associated Press.
Topiltzin-2091@webtv.net wrote:




Another news article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070113/ap_on_sc/archaeological_find
Ancient stone tools found in N.America

By STEVE KARNOWSKI, Associated Press Writer Sat Jan 13, 1:39 AM ET

MINNEAPOLIS - What appear to be crude stone tools may provide evidence
that people lived in Minnesota 13,000 to 15,000 years ago, which if
confirmed would make them among the oldest human artifacts ever found in
North America, archaeologists said Friday.
ADVERTISEMENT

Archaeologists in the northern Minnesota town of Walker dug up the
items, which appear to be beveled scrapers, choppers, a crude knife and
several flakes that could have been used for cutting, said Colleen
Wells, field director for the Leech Lake Heritage Sites Program.

"They don't look like much," Wells acknowledged. "They don't look pretty."

Several archaeological experts who weren't involved with the dig
expressed a healthy dose of skepticism, but they acknowledged they were
also intrigued.

Wells and other archaeologists discovered around 50 objects this past
year while investigating a route for a planned road that would serve a
major community development project in Walker. The items were found
beneath a layer of glacial deposits that had been covered by windblown
deposits. Based on what's known about the geology of the area, they
believe the objects are between 13,000 and 15,000 years old.

"The finding is intriguing but it really needs to have its precise age
nailed down and more needs to be known of the artifacts," said David
Meltzer, an archaeologist at Southern Methodist University in Dallas.

Much more research needs to be done to allow firm conclusions, Wells and
her colleagues acknowledged. "It's bound to be controversial," said Matt
Mattson, another archaeologist on the project.

Not only do the age of the items and the soil in which they were found
need to be confirmed, it must also be determined whether the objects are
really human-made artifacts or merely rocks that were chipped in
interesting ways by glaciers during the Ice Age. And it's not yet
certain if the items were left at the site by humans, or carried there
by glaciers or flowing water.

Other researchers have found that that part of Minnesota apparently was
something of an "oasis" around 13,000 years ago, an area free of ice
cover with shifting glaciers on most sides but with an access route to
the southeast, Mattson said.

Tom Dillehay, chairman of the anthropology department at Vanderbilt
University in Nashville, Tenn., was intrigued by the edge he saw on a
photo of one of the objects found in Walker, saying it could have been
chipped by a human.

"It's probably worth protecting the site and going back in and more
systematically excavating with the geologists and other disciplines to
see if it's a real site," he said.

Pat Everson, head of archaeology for the Minnesota Historical Society,
said she hadn't been to the site or seen the artifacts personally, but
she'd read the reports, knows the archaeologists involved and considers
them "perfectly credible." Still, she counted herself among the skeptics.

"It's an extraordinary claim and it requires some extraordinary
evidence," Everson said. "But it's certainly worth pursuing."

Several experts agreed it is possible people were in Minnesota that long
ago.

"It seems to be there is an increasing body of science that there were
stone stools and people here in that time period in North America," said
Dan Rogers, chairman of the anthropology department at the National
Museum of Natural History at the
Smithsonian Institution in Washington.

The long-accepted theory was that people first arrived in the Western
Hemisphere 11,200 years ago — corresponding with the age of arrowheads
found in the 1930s near Clovis, N.M. — via a land bridge from Asia over
what is now the Bering Strait.

But a consensus is emerging that some humans arrived thousands of years
earlier, even if scientists disagree on just how much earlier. And
several agreed that if the Minnesota objects do turn out to be 13,000-
to 15,000-year-old tools, they'd be among the oldest human artifacts
ever found in North America.

That's why the local archaeologists are hoping to get back into the site
after this winter, and hope to work out a way with the city of Walker to
preserve it for sometime in the future when more advanced testing
methods might be available.

"Once it's gone it's gone," Mattson said. "We're looking at absolutely
irreplaceable links in human history here. Once it's gone there's no
retrieving it."
Daryl Krupa
Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:49 am
Joined: 30 May 2004 Posts: 1118
Roger Lee Bagula wrote:
<snip>
Quote:
Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old
(AP) Walker, Minn. Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a
hill in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to 14,000 years
old, according to a published report.
snip
Another news article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070113/ap_on_sc/archaeological_find
Ancient stone tools found in N.America

By STEVE KARNOWSKI, Associated Press Writer Sat Jan 13, 1:39 AM ET

MINNEAPOLIS - What appear to be crude stone tools may provide evidence
that people lived in Minnesota 13,000 to 15,000 years ago, which if
confirmed would make them among the oldest human artifacts ever found in
North America, archaeologists said Friday.
snip


Note: the ages given in these articles are not likely to be accurate,
as based on what we know about the geology of the area, the glacial
outwash gravel above the artifacts might date from between 15,000 B.P.
and 13,000 B.P. (radiocarbon dates), which would make the Walker
"artifacts" more than 16,000 years old.

Walker is East of the tip of the arrow below "Red River Lobe" and
in line with a NNE extension of the "St.Croix Moraine" label on this
map of
ice extent at about the time that that outwash gravel would have been
deposited:

http://www.fromsitetostory.org/sources/glacialmaps/13000f.gif

Later ice margins are too far away, and too far downslope, to have
contributed that outwash gravel to the Walker site:

http://www.fromsitetostory.org/sources/glacialmaps/glacialmaps.asp

In fact, the Walker site might have been exactly on that 13,000 B.P.
ice margin,
if it follows the ice-marginal cjhannel running SW from Walker and
Leech Lake
(marked by a chain of lakes along the Great Northern Railway line
on this topographic map):

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=47.10139&lon=-94.58694&datum=nad27&u=4&layer=DRG250&size=l&s=1000

OR

http://tinyurl.com/355qub

So far as I know, there are no dates on that glacial outwash gravel,
and
immediately-beside-a-continent-sized-ice-mass is an uncomfortable
camping site,
and there is, as yet, no evidence that the "artifacts" are not simply
glacially-altered pebbles in a glacial deposit.

Wait for a peer-reviewed article.

-
Daryl Krupa
View user's profile Send private message
deowll
Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:26 am
Guest
"Roger Lee Bagula" <rlbagulatftn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pA6rh.60414$qO4.16507@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
Quote:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: PRE-CLOVIS TOOLS IN MINNESOTA?
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:36:57 -0600
From: Topiltzin-2091@webtv.net
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology.mesoamerican


Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old
(AP) Walker, Minn. Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a
hill in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to 14,000 years
old, according to a published report.
From the rough stone tools, archaeologists are speculating that
"we're looking at certainly the relatively earliest occupants of the
North American continent," biologist and archaeologist Matt Mattson said
in a Star Tribune of Minneapolis report Thursday night. He worked on the
project for the Leech Lake Heritage Sites Program, which is based near
Cass Lake.
Britta Bloomberg, Minnesota's deputy historic preservation officer, said
it may be among the oldest known archaeological sites in North and South
America. A half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and others who
have examined the site all said the artifacts are genuine, she said.
The stone tools were found while archaeologists were investigating the
path of a road where the city is planning to expand for a community
center, housing and businesses.
Archaeologists found 50 or more objects while digging through an area of
about 50 square yards. The artifacts ranged from large hammer stones to
small hand-held scrapers.
Mattson said the objects were found underneath a band of rock and gravel
that appeared to have been deposited by melting glaciers and then
covered by windblown sediment, Mather said.
David Mather, state archaeologist for the National Register of Historic
Places, said the find "is something off our radar. We didn't think it
was even possible in Minnesota."
"(This) could be a real watershed for understanding Minnesota's
history," he said.
Mather said the site appears to be "much older" than the Clovis era of
finely made spear points that defines the paleo-Indian period.
The find is "startling enough that appropriate response from every
archaeologist and glacial geologist is skepticism." But, he added, a
half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and others who have examined
the site all say the artifacts are genuine.
Human remains, wood or textiles, if there were any, would have dissolved
long ago in the acidic soil. The oldest human remains found in Minnesota
belonged to the Browns Valley Man, who lived about 9,000 years ago. His
remains were discovered in 1933 in a gravel pit near the town of Browns
Valley in western Minnesota.
Walker is about 190 miles northwest of the Twin Cities.

(© 2007 The Associated Press.
Topiltzin-2091@webtv.net wrote:




Another news article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070113/ap_on_sc/archaeological_find
Ancient stone tools found in N.America

By STEVE KARNOWSKI, Associated Press Writer Sat Jan 13, 1:39 AM ET

MINNEAPOLIS - What appear to be crude stone tools may provide evidence
that people lived in Minnesota 13,000 to 15,000 years ago, which if
confirmed would make them among the oldest human artifacts ever found in
North America, archaeologists said Friday.
ADVERTISEMENT

Archaeologists in the northern Minnesota town of Walker dug up the items,
which appear to be beveled scrapers, choppers, a crude knife and several
flakes that could have been used for cutting, said Colleen Wells, field
director for the Leech Lake Heritage Sites Program.

"They don't look like much," Wells acknowledged. "They don't look pretty."

Several archaeological experts who weren't involved with the dig expressed
a healthy dose of skepticism, but they acknowledged they were also
intrigued.

Wells and other archaeologists discovered around 50 objects this past year
while investigating a route for a planned road that would serve a major
community development project in Walker. The items were found beneath a
layer of glacial deposits that had been covered by windblown deposits.
Based on what's known about the geology of the area, they believe the
objects are between 13,000 and 15,000 years old.

"The finding is intriguing but it really needs to have its precise age
nailed down and more needs to be known of the artifacts," said David
Meltzer, an archaeologist at Southern Methodist University in Dallas.

Much more research needs to be done to allow firm conclusions, Wells and
her colleagues acknowledged. "It's bound to be controversial," said Matt
Mattson, another archaeologist on the project.

Not only do the age of the items and the soil in which they were found
need to be confirmed, it must also be determined whether the objects are
really human-made artifacts or merely rocks that were chipped in
interesting ways by glaciers during the Ice Age. And it's not yet certain
if the items were left at the site by humans, or carried there by glaciers
or flowing water.

Other researchers have found that that part of Minnesota apparently was
something of an "oasis" around 13,000 years ago, an area free of ice cover
with shifting glaciers on most sides but with an access route to the
southeast, Mattson said.

Tom Dillehay, chairman of the anthropology department at Vanderbilt
University in Nashville, Tenn., was intrigued by the edge he saw on a
photo of one of the objects found in Walker, saying it could have been
chipped by a human.

"It's probably worth protecting the site and going back in and more
systematically excavating with the geologists and other disciplines to see
if it's a real site," he said.

Pat Everson, head of archaeology for the Minnesota Historical Society,
said she hadn't been to the site or seen the artifacts personally, but
she'd read the reports, knows the archaeologists involved and considers
them "perfectly credible." Still, she counted herself among the skeptics.

"It's an extraordinary claim and it requires some extraordinary evidence,"
Everson said. "But it's certainly worth pursuing."

Several experts agreed it is possible people were in Minnesota that long
ago.

"It seems to be there is an increasing body of science that there were
stone stools and people here in that time period in North America," said
Dan Rogers, chairman of the anthropology department at the National Museum
of Natural History at the
Smithsonian Institution in Washington.

The long-accepted theory was that people first arrived in the Western
Hemisphere 11,200 years ago — corresponding with the age of arrowheads
found in the 1930s near Clovis, N.M. — via a land bridge from Asia over
what is now the Bering Strait.

But a consensus is emerging that some humans arrived thousands of years
earlier, even if scientists disagree on just how much earlier. And several
agreed that if the Minnesota objects do turn out to be 13,000- to
15,000-year-old tools, they'd be among the oldest human artifacts ever
found in North America.

That's why the local archaeologists are hoping to get back into the site
after this winter, and hope to work out a way with the city of Walker to
preserve it for sometime in the future when more advanced testing methods
might be available.

"Once it's gone it's gone," Mattson said. "We're looking at absolutely
irreplaceable links in human history here. Once it's gone there's no
retrieving it."

Of course if the artifacts are real people were somewhere else in NA a long
time before or these remains wouldn't exist. It would not have been that
easy to make it through an ice age Minnesota winter.
pete
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:10 pm
Guest
on Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:26:46 -0600, deowll <deowll@bellsouth.net> sez:

Quote:
Of course if the artifacts are real people were somewhere else in NA a long
time before or these remains wouldn't exist. It would not have been that
easy to make it through an ice age Minnesota winter.

I seem to recall reading of some artifacts found at the bottom of a
morraine somewhere in that general region, to the SW of the great lakes,
many years ago, during the height of the Clovis-first regime. The
arguments for pre-12ky BP dates for these discoveries were dismissed
by the orthodoxy, it seems to me, with a one-two combination - they
aren't that old, they've been mislocated in the wrong strata, and
besides, they aren't really artefacts, they're just coincidentally
human-worked-looking rubble.

Unfortunately, with this sort of nebulous recollection, I'm not going
to be able to extract sufficient words to locate the site via websearch.
I found three sites from Wisconsin: Mud Lake, Schaefer, and Hebior,
all currently proposed as 15kBP pre-clovis, but they are relatively
recent, and aren't the sub-morraine type I'm recalling. Two are
mammoth butcher sites. Oh, well. Perhaps someone else can recall
this more clearly.


--
==========================================================================
vincent@triumf[munge].ca Pete Vincent
Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.
Daryl Krupa
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:49 pm
Joined: 30 May 2004 Posts: 1118
<snip>
Quote:
I seem to recall reading of some artifacts found at the bottom of a
morraine somewhere in that general region, to the SW of the great lakes,
many years ago, during the height of the Clovis-first regime. The
arguments for pre-12ky BP dates for these discoveries were dismissed
by the orthodoxy, it seems to me, with a one-two combination - they
aren't that old, they've been mislocated in the wrong strata, and
besides, they aren't really artefacts, they're just coincidentally
human-worked-looking rubble.

Unfortunately, with this sort of nebulous recollection, I'm not going
to be able to extract sufficient words to locate the site via websearch.
I found three sites from Wisconsin: Mud Lake, Schaefer, and Hebior,
all currently proposed as 15kBP pre-clovis, but they are relatively
recent, and aren't the sub-morraine type I'm recalling. Two are
mammoth butcher sites. Oh, well. Perhaps someone else can recall
this more clearly.

Big Eddy in Missouri, perhaps?

http://www.missouristate.edu/car/7707.htm

http://www.ruralmissouri.org/01pages/augdig.html

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=37.71366&lon=-93.84189&s=500&size=l&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG

_
Daryl Krupa
View user's profile Send private message
pete
Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:01 am
Guest
on 23 Jan 2007 17:49:56 -0800, Daryl Krupa <icycalmca@yahoo.com> sez:

Quote:
snip
I seem to recall reading of some artifacts found at the bottom of a
morraine somewhere in that general region, to the SW of the great lakes,
many years ago, during the height of the Clovis-first regime. The
arguments for pre-12ky BP dates for these discoveries were dismissed
by the orthodoxy, it seems to me, with a one-two combination - they
aren't that old, they've been mislocated in the wrong strata, and
besides, they aren't really artefacts, they're just coincidentally
human-worked-looking rubble.

Unfortunately, with this sort of nebulous recollection, I'm not going
to be able to extract sufficient words to locate the site via websearch.
I found three sites from Wisconsin: Mud Lake, Schaefer, and Hebior,
all currently proposed as 15kBP pre-clovis, but they are relatively
recent, and aren't the sub-morraine type I'm recalling. Two are
mammoth butcher sites. Oh, well. Perhaps someone else can recall
this more clearly.

Big Eddy in Missouri, perhaps?

http://www.missouristate.edu/car/7707.htm

http://www.ruralmissouri.org/01pages/augdig.html

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=37.71366&lon=-93.84189&s=500&size=l&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG

Interesting site, and thanks for the links, but nope; the one
I'm thinking of was
1) claimed as pre-clovis long ago - I think I encountered it
around 12-15 years ago, which is why I can't remember anything
about it, and it was old then
2) closer to the great lakes
3) tools discovered under a pebble/gravel type moraine layer
4) claimed a date around 15-16kya, and thus immediately crushed
into oblivion by the clovis orthodoxy.

Now, the hazy doubtful part of my memory of this site includes
something about it being turned up in some sort of excavation,
and this allowed the clovis mafia to scoff that the stratigraphy
had been corrupted, over the indignant protests of the people
directly involved in investigating the site.

--
==========================================================================
vincent@triumf[munge].ca Pete Vincent
Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.
Daryl Krupa
Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:10 am
Joined: 30 May 2004 Posts: 1118
On Jan 24, 9:01 pm, vinc...@triumfunspam.ca (pete) wrote:

Quote:
Interesting site, and thanks for the links, but nope; the one
I'm thinking of was
1) claimed as pre-clovis long ago - I think I encountered it
   around 12-15 years ago, which is why I can't remember anything
   about it, and it was old then
2) closer to the great lakes
3) tools discovered under a pebble/gravel type moraine layer
4) claimed a date around 15-16kya, and thus immediately crushed
   into oblivion by the clovis orthodoxy.

Now, the hazy doubtful part of my memory of this site includes
something about it being turned up in some sort of excavation,
and this allowed the clovis mafia to scoff that the stratigraphy
had been corrupted, over the indignant protests of the people
directly involved in investigating the site.

Pete:
If you do recall some more detail on that site,
I would greatly appreciate hearing about it from you.

-
Daryl Krupa
View user's profile Send private message
Lee Olsen
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:08 am
Guest
Roger Lee Bagula wrote:
Quote:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: PRE-CLOVIS TOOLS IN MINNESOTA?
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:36:57 -0600
From: Topiltzin-2091@webtv.net
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology.mesoamerican


Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old
(AP) Walker, Minn. Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a
hill in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to 14,000 years
old, according to a published report.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/breaking_news/16840053.htm
Daryl Krupa
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:43 am
Joined: 30 May 2004 Posts: 1118
Quote:
Roger Lee Bagula forwarded:
Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old
(AP) Walker, Minn. Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a
hill in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to 14,000 years
old, according to a published report.

On Mar 6, 9:08 pm, "Lee Olsen" <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/breaking_news/16840053.htm

More to the point:

The Walker Hill Site (21CA668):
Comments on the Possibility of
a Late Glacial Human Presence in Minnesota
Scott Anfinson
Minnesota State Archaeologist
2/20/07

http://www.osa.admin.state.mn.us/documents/The%20Walker%20Hill%20Site.pdf

What I regard as an interesting quote:
'Archaeologists also need to more aware of
the recent advances in radiocarbon date correction
(Clovis is 2,000 years older than we thought) and that
"BP" and "years ago" are not the same.'

What is most interesting is this statigraphic description:
' ... the basic description said the modern soils were underlain by
a thick (ca. 40 cm) Aeolian (loess) deposit followed by
a water-sorted sand/gravel/cobble layer, then
a water-sorted sand layer, and finally
a layer of large boulders. Most "artifacts" had come from
the layer immediately below the wind-deposited sands, ... '
I.e., most of the 'artifacts' came from stream deposits
associated with glacial meltwater flows strong enough to have
transported stones as big as an adult fist.
That stream would have deposited that
water-sorted sand/gravel/cobble layer sometime between
the advance of glacial ice to the Itasca and St. Croix Moraines and
the final cutting of the meltwater channel to the southwest.
That is still a pre-Clovis time frame, nowithstanding
the dating inaccuracies of the biologist presenting the site.
But most of the 'artifacts' could be younger than that
water-sorted sand/gravel/cobble layer, i.e. associated with
the time of deposition of the wind-deposited sands above,
which need not be pre-Clovis, and might even be post-Clovis.

Let's hope that the 2007 excavation is done with
more attention to details of proveniance.

-
Daryl Krupa
View user's profile Send private message
 
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