I'm satisfied that any claim that the E. coli was IN the spinach is
not true.

"Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:45aa1824$0$758$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net...
It seems like an over-reaction - but where do the
legislators draw the line? It's a very difficult decision.

drawing the line exactly is always difficult.

however, one thing about legislation is that if it's too
extreme or illogical, people just flaunt it entirely. i can
only assume that the u.k. is full of people giving kitchen
scraps (possibly including cooked meat or bones) to their
chooks. and i'm wondering why they shouldn't. after all, if
the chook's going to get f&m, so would the humans, so it's
a considered action er, unless people can't get f&m,
and in fact i don't know if chooks do either - if neither
species can get it, i must admit to wondering then why the
legislation has to be so extreme at all. certainly nobody
wants a bunch of dead livestock for anyone - but then if
they thought it was from pigs eating meat, the line would
appear to me to have been drawn in quite the wrong way.
(??)

As it happens I wouldn't feed waste from any other source
than our own kitchen, if it isn't fit for us to eat it's
not fit for our pets. - or anything we're going to eat.

but presumably you might buy veggies FOR the chickens just
as you might buy veggies for yourself.

But I must stress that this law is nothing to do with BSE,
that condition resulted in other legislation.

did people there feel that with rolling outbreaks of
horrible diseases, there might be something wrong? with
farming practices, i mean.

"0tterbot" <spl@t.com> wrote in message
news:sZnqh.913$u8.813@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

even our Dear Jackie

Who?

said not to put grey water on root crops, lest the evil small traces of
e. coli in shower water get "in" your root crops. it's the only dumb
thing i've ever known her to say so far, but really. it's tickety-boo to
put horse manure all over your root crops for the worms to drag down, but
god forbid the shower water goes on them e. coli can't survive in a
carrot for months, for heaven's sake.
kylie

It sounds as though Dear Jackie is a politican. They're politicans because
they have no specialist ideas as a rule. If they had they'd be earning
honest money.

even our Dear Jackie

Who?

jackie french, gardener extraordinaire.

It sounds as though Dear Jackie is a politician. They're politicians
because they have no specialist ideas as a rule. If they had they'd be
earning honest money.

ya, but she's not one

i've noticed in gardening that sometimes otherwise sensible people (even
me!! will sincerely believe something that's actually completely
illogical and maybe even nuts. noticed the same thing concerning animals &
livestock a lot too. well, in fact, it's probably across the board of
human endeavours <g>. BUT because gardening (and livestock) involves food
(often), some people get a bit carried away with their weirdities at times
& feel obliged to say illogical things that probably if it wasn't
food-related, they'd not bother saying or thinking about. i don't know.

(i suppose it's one of those subjects where, once a person has had a
sincere belief for a thousand years, it's hard for them to realise it
might be illogical after all.)

one good example pertaining to this group might be: the (apparent[?] ...
do correct me if i'm wrong) ban in the u.k. on chickens eating cooked meat
which isn't even a chicken and isn't anything's brain either. it's not
logical. but it involves food, so hey. ban it.

kylie

ya, but she's not one :-)

LOL! they're not unique.

one good example pertaining to this group might be: the (apparent[?] ...
do correct me if i'm wrong) ban in the u.k. on chickens eating cooked
meat >> which isn't even a chicken and isn't anything's brain either.
it's not logical. but it involves food, so hey. ban it.

It's true but it's nothing to do with brain or nerve material, that would
be linked to BSE.

A couple of years ago we had a terrible outbreak of foot and mouth
disease, resulting in very many animals being killed and burnt and a lot
of farmers being put out of business or even committing suicide. It was
awful.

The thinking is that it was caused by feeding pigs on infected meat. There
are some countries where F&M is endemic and we're not supposed to import
meat from those places - the same is true, I suspect, in your country.
It's a sensible precaution.

In an attempt to prevent a future outbreak of this dreadful disease it was
decided to ban any feeding of meat or kitchen waste to any animal or bird
which was normally part of the human food chain, even if that animal or
bird was a pet. So it's illegal to feed our pet chickens (which we might
eat and we certainly eat their eggs) with anything which originates in our
kitchen or other catering establishment. That includes anything, even
carrot peelings.

It seems like an over-reaction - but where do the legislators draw the
line? It's a very difficult decision.

As it happens I wouldn't feed waste from any other source than our own
kitchen, if it isn't fit for us to eat it's not fit for our pets. - or
anything we're going to eat.

But I must stress that this law is nothing to do with BSE, that condition
resulted in other legislation.

The best sirte I could find was this one:
http://www.dmaonline.org/fppublic/connect73.html
Where the nearest comment to e. coli actually being "in the spinach",
is as follows:
Quote, "the FDA issued an advisory warning consumers throughout the
country not to eat any bagged spinach products. Frozen and canned
spinach were not affected by the advisory, because these products
receive processing treatment that would destroy bacteria. FDA
officials also noted that washing spinach would not be an effective
step in making it safe, because bacteria could get inside the leaves."
end quote.

"diddy" <diddy@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
in thread news:CY1qh.428$u8.233@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
"0tterbot"

you are, of course, aware that soil contains a great many things
you
probably wouldn't want to eat in large quantities, e-coli being
just
one of them.

e-coli tainted food doesn't get that way during the _growing_
process,
fertilisers or no. otherwise we'd be eating all sorts!!
kylie

Actually, in the case of the spinach it did. The fertilizer was
overapplied
and the E-Coli was IN the spinach and didn't wash off.

I was fascinated by this claim as I've never heard of any claim that
E. coli could actually be INSIDE a plant and I've gardened and been an
avid reader of all things gardening for more years than I care to
remember.

E. coli is a normal resident of the gut flora of mammals, and, since
vegetable don't have guts then how could it be possible for E.coli to
be found IN a vegetable???? It may be ON a vegetable but IN
it??????????? I thought this was such a truly weird claim that I just
had to do some googling.

I checked a lot of US sites including the CDC (sloppy writers - why is
the art of clear, unambiguous writing so rare these days!) that site
mentions e. coli in "bagged spinach" which of course is not the same
as "in the spinach". It implies a contamination of the bagged product
with E. coli. Later mention is made of how E. coli has previously
been a problem on lettuce but it goes on to mention that washed
lettuce, where the bag records that it is washed, would be OK. No
help at the CDC site, so I moved on.

The best sirte I could find was this one:
http://www.dmaonline.org/fppublic/connect73.html
Where the nearest comment to e. coli actually being "in the spinach",
is as follows:
Quote, "the FDA issued an advisory warning consumers throughout the
country not to eat any bagged spinach products. Frozen and canned
spinach were not affected by the advisory, because these products
receive processing treatment that would destroy bacteria. FDA
officials also noted that washing spinach would not be an effective
step in making it safe, because bacteria could get inside the leaves."
end quote.

A couple of years ago we had a terrible outbreak of foot and mouth
disease, resulting in very many animals being killed and burnt and a lot
of farmers being put out of business or even committing suicide. It was
awful.

pardon my ignorance - but we don't have f&m here (there you are!!), but i
thought it was soil-borne(?)

The thinking is that it was caused by feeding pigs on infected meat.
There are some countries where F&M is endemic and we're not supposed to
import meat from those places - the same is true, I suspect, in your
country. It's a sensible precaution.

i am all for sensible precautions. where i object is to non-sensible
precautions

In an attempt to prevent a future outbreak of this dreadful disease it
was decided to ban any feeding of meat or kitchen waste to any animal or
bird which was normally part of the human food chain, even if that animal
or bird was a pet. So it's illegal to feed our pet chickens (which we
might eat and we certainly eat their eggs) with anything which originates
in our kitchen or other catering establishment. That includes anything,
even carrot peelings.

!!!

It seems like an over-reaction - but where do the legislators draw the
line? It's a very difficult decision.

drawing the line exactly is always difficult.

however, one thing about legislation is that if it's too extreme or
illogical, people just flaunt it entirely. i can only assume that the u.k.
is full of people giving kitchen scraps (possibly including cooked meat or
bones) to their chooks. and i'm wondering why they shouldn't. after all,
if the chook's going to get f&m,

so would the humans,

so it's a considered action er, unless people can't get f&m, and in
fact i don't know if chooks do either - if neither species can get it, i
must admit to wondering then why the legislation has to be so extreme at
all.

a bunch of dead livestock for anyone - but then if they thought it was
from pigs eating meat, the line would appear to me to have been drawn in
quite the wrong way. (??)

As it happens I wouldn't feed waste from any other source than our own
kitchen, if it isn't fit for us to eat it's not fit for our pets. - or
anything we're going to eat.

but presumably you might buy veggies FOR the chickens just as you might
buy veggies for yourself.

But I must stress that this law is nothing to do with BSE, that condition
resulted in other legislation.

did people there feel that with rolling outbreaks of horrible diseases,
there might be something wrong? with farming practices, i mean.

i was wondering how one keeps free ranging chooks out of the
compost pile. i may not directly feed the chickens anything
from the kitchen, but they certainly do help themselves to
scratching through the compost bins. i don't see a reason to
fence off the bins...

As it happens I wouldn't feed waste from any other source
than our own kitchen, if it isn't fit for us to eat it's
not fit for our pets. - or anything we're going to eat.

but presumably you might buy veggies FOR the chickens just
as you might buy veggies for yourself.

i do, sort of. i buy the roosters alfalfa hay & lettuce
because they're penned. i feel bad that they can't go eat
grass & scratch in the compost with the hens (but they're too
rough with the girls if they're all out together)

i also buy lettuce for my tortoises...

But I must stress that this law is nothing to do with BSE,
that condition resulted in other legislation.

did people there feel that with rolling outbreaks of
horrible diseases, there might be something wrong? with
farming practices, i mean.

like overcrowding & feedlots?

While I'm quite skeptical of how E. Coli could remain a problem on the
inside of a plant even if it got there, this does say that washing wasn't
an effective treatment of the product in question because the bacteria
could get inside the leaves.

i was wondering how one keeps free ranging chooks out of the
compost pile. i may not directly feed the chickens anything
from the kitchen, but they certainly do help themselves to
scratching through the compost bins. i don't see a reason to
fence off the bins...

"0tterbot" <spl@t.com> wrote in message

even our Dear Jackie

Who?

"Farm1" <please@askifyouwannaknow> wrote in message

The best sirte I could find was this one:
http://www.dmaonline.org/fppublic/connect73.html
Where the nearest comment to e. coli actually being "in the
spinach",
is as follows:
Quote, "the FDA issued an advisory warning consumers throughout
the
country not to eat any bagged spinach products. Frozen and canned
spinach were not affected by the advisory, because these products
receive processing treatment that would destroy bacteria. FDA
officials also noted that washing spinach would not be an
effective
step in making it safe, because bacteria could get inside the
leaves."
end quote.

While I'm quite skeptical of how E. Coli could remain a problem on
the
inside of a plant even if it got there, this does say that washing
wasn't an
effective treatment of the product in question because the bacteria
could
get inside the leaves.

"Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message

A couple of years ago we had a terrible outbreak of foot and mouth
disease, resulting in very many animals being killed and burnt and
a lot
of farmers being put out of business or even committing suicide.
It was
awful.

pardon my ignorance - but we don't have f&m here (there you are!!),
but i
thought it was soil-borne(?)

In an attempt to prevent a future outbreak of this dreadful
disease it was
decided to ban any feeding of meat or kitchen waste to any animal
or bird
which was normally part of the human food chain, even if that
animal or
bird was a pet. So it's illegal to feed our pet chickens (which we
might
eat and we certainly eat their eggs) with anything which
originates in our
kitchen or other catering establishment. That includes anything,
even
carrot peelings.

however, one thing about legislation is that if it's too extreme or
illogical, people just flaunt it entirely. i can only assume that
the u.k.
is full of people giving kitchen scraps (possibly including cooked
meat or
bones) to their chooks. and i'm wondering why they shouldn't.

The F&M outbreak in the UK was so appalling that it might interest you
to do wome reading on it. Imagine the consequences if it even got
into Oz? All cattle, sheep,goats, camels, alpacas, pigs etc could be
at risk.