Searles,
I am a bit confused, not by your lines which completely confirms what I have
been taught myself mainly in subject history at university level, but also
in 1th-9th grade (which we call groundschool).
And that's where I am confused. I thought that every student, at least
students studying history or archaeology, in Europe learnt the main facts in
other word (quoting from your lines above) "Knowledge that was preserved
from insular histories and classical accounts." and some bits in pieces from
those. Do you believe that we in Sweden are the only one to learn about this
outside Ireland. Can't be true, can it?

Inger E

Doug Weller wrote:
On 12 Sep 2006 04:30:33 -0700, in sci.archaeology, odubhain@comcast.net
wrote:

snip


Which differed from area to area.

Celtic armies existed.

In some places.


No we aren't. The actual facts are probably somewhere between our two
positions.

Inger E wrote:

snip


Searles,
I am a bit confused, not by your lines which completely confirms what I
have
been taught myself mainly in subject history at university level, but
also
in 1th-9th grade (which we call groundschool).
And that's where I am confused. I thought that every student, at least
students studying history or archaeology, in Europe learnt the main
facts in
other word (quoting from your lines above) "Knowledge that was preserved
from insular histories and classical accounts." and some bits in pieces
from
those. Do you believe that we in Sweden are the only one to learn about
this
outside Ireland. Can't be true, can it?

Inger E

Inger,

I think that most Western Civilization courses and histories are more
centered on Greek and Roman versions of history and the one fostered by
the Roman Catholic Church. I do see more and more inclusion rather
than exclusion of alternative and native histories in the classes
offered in the schools and the available books and references. I'm
optomistic that future histries will provide a more objective
discoyurse on what actually happend in th eworld than we've had up to
now. You should see what a spin U.S. History puts on World History. :-)

Searles

Searles,
I am glad not having to see those books.....
Especially glad not having to use them when teaching.
I love the Greeks and the Romans, and the Babylonians and the
Egyptians,
make no mistake about that.... but to reading the Irish tales in
origin or
translated into English, to read Celtic works written by scholars
knowing
what they are talking about, is as thrilling as reading a good
novel....
well actually better because there are things never told anywhere else
maybe
children's short stories excluded.

In sci.archaeology message
news:1158110198.359688.172640@e63g2000cwd.googlegroups.com by "roge"
rogedown52@tiscali.co.uk> . . . :


prd wrote:
In sci.archaeology message news:1158060633.288714.134520
@e63g2000cwd.googlegroups.com by odubhain@comcast.net . . . :

Celtic language existed. Celtic laws existed. Celt religion existed.
Celtic art existed. Celtic family structures existed. Celtic burial
practices existed. Celtic armies existed. What do you mean by
"cohesive?" It was only the Druid class of Celtic culture that had
the right to be "cohesive." They could journey safely between
independent family areas and kingdoms. Druids are the factor that
gave cohesion to Celtic culture. They were the university and
educational system of the culture. They were also the church of the
culture and the memory of the culture. Now, the military class was
the "outreach" function of Celtic culture.

The Keltoi that the greeks describe are of the east, genetically
they can be place no further west than the austria region.

The gaulic, gaelic represent a western end of this.
When you speak of druidic religion that is probably a whole
different religion that what the greeks first identified.

The concept of eastern Keltoi religions comes from the greeks
Where as the not very well studied romans made sometimes
reckless comparisons.

I think Doug is right on this one. There is no singular Celtic
culture. You could make a cogent argument for a western and
eastern celtic culture, but then I would argue that in Ireland
you have still another culture.

The desire to have accurate nomenclature tells me that calling
gauls celts is bad nomenclature.

Hi prd,
Ceasar said that Gaul was comprised of Belgae,Aquitania and
Gaul,also
that the Gauls were known as Celts in their own language but that Gaul
was

Interesting that you say that because know one knows what the word Keltoi
means in greek.

Hi Phil,

used by Latin speakers.

What is the gaulic name for a celt. In greek its Keltoi.

They seem to claim alliances over a much broader region
http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol1/1_2/agozzino_1_2.html
[Snicker]

As for the celts being of different cultures that applies to germanic
as well,did they
all have a Viking Boat,deformed skulls like huns,speak Icelandic.
How about Jews,how many Christian denominations do you know of etc.
Don't just pick over the Celts, get on with the archaeology as these
type of threads are anti nationalistic trolls

Who is anti-nationalistic and why?

We have this discussion every few months, and I want to know
from someone who is into druidism can they prove this
religious connection is a singularity with only local
shifts in names or are these regionally similar but
distinct beliefs.

prd wrote:
In sci.archaeology message
news:1158110198.359688.172640@e63g2000cwd.googlegroups.com by "roge"
rogedown52@tiscali.co.uk> . . . :


prd wrote:
In sci.archaeology message news:1158060633.288714.134520
@e63g2000cwd.googlegroups.com by odubhain@comcast.net . . . :

Celtic language existed. Celtic laws existed. Celt religion
existed.
Celtic art existed. Celtic family structures existed. Celtic burial
practices existed. Celtic armies existed. What do you mean by
"cohesive?" It was only the Druid class of Celtic culture that had
the right to be "cohesive." They could journey safely between
independent family areas and kingdoms. Druids are the factor that
gave cohesion to Celtic culture. They were the university and
educational system of the culture. They were also the church of the
culture and the memory of the culture. Now, the military class was
the "outreach" function of Celtic culture.

The Keltoi that the greeks describe are of the east, genetically
they can be place no further west than the austria region.

The gaulic, gaelic represent a western end of this.
When you speak of druidic religion that is probably a whole
different religion that what the greeks first identified.

The concept of eastern Keltoi religions comes from the greeks
Where as the not very well studied romans made sometimes
reckless comparisons.

I think Doug is right on this one. There is no singular Celtic
culture. You could make a cogent argument for a western and
eastern celtic culture, but then I would argue that in Ireland
you have still another culture.

The desire to have accurate nomenclature tells me that calling
gauls celts is bad nomenclature.

Hi prd,
Ceasar said that Gaul was comprised of Belgae,Aquitania and
Gaul,also
that the Gauls were known as Celts in their own language but that
Gaul
was

Interesting that you say that because know one knows what the word
Keltoi
means in greek.

Hi Phil,
I didn't reply before as I don't like using Google Groups and I didn't
read everything.
That is what he said "in their own language"

used by Latin speakers.

What is the gaulic name for a celt. In greek its Keltoi.

They seem to claim alliances over a much broader region

http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol1/1_2/agozzino_1_2.html
[Snicker]

As for the celts being of different cultures that applies to germanic
as well,did they
all have a Viking Boat,deformed skulls like huns,speak Icelandic.
How about Jews,how many Christian denominations do you know of etc.
Don't just pick over the Celts, get on with the archaeology as these
type of threads are anti nationalistic trolls

Who is anti-nationalistic and why?

A lot of these type of " Who were the Celts","What is a Druid"
threads were started
on soc.culture.celtic by people whose agenda was to convince others
that history was
just a bland everyone was the same and they just traded and copied
things from
each other.Everything was denied about the celts to the extent that
no one bothers
to post there now,those interested in celtic culture now mostly read
lists instead.
Most of this anti-nationalism now has to do with the EU and how
archaeology is to
be interpreted and dumbed down and different periods emphasized and
taught.


We have this discussion every few months, and I want to know
from someone who is into druidism can they prove this
religious connection is a singularity with only local
shifts in names or are these regionally similar but
distinct beliefs.

That seems fair enough but it is not why most are in this thread.
http://www.roman-britain.org/nemeton.htm

Roge

large snip

Now there are an undiscussible fact that the Celts not only placed
their
footprints on the Europe to be sometime in the distant future. It's
also an
undiscussible fact that Celts in Ireland and Wales together with the
Basques
are the oldest surviving cultural groups who remained in the areas
where
they are at present. All other groups including the so called original
ethnic groups are late, some later than other non-original ethnic
groups, in
the areas where they live at present.

"Inger E" <inger_e.johansson@nospamtelia.com> wrote in message
news:D1tOg.16554$E02.6429@newsb.telia.net...

large snip
I'd just like to discuss something that you call "undiscussible" in the
following paragraph:

Now there are an undiscussible fact that the Celts not only placed
their
footprints on the Europe to be sometime in the distant future. It's
also an
undiscussible fact that Celts in Ireland and Wales together with the
Basques
are the oldest surviving cultural groups who remained in the areas
where
they are at present. All other groups including the so called original
ethnic groups are late, some later than other non-original ethnic
groups, in
the areas where they live at present.

Now, I could have accepted that easily if you had written:

"It's also an undiscussible fact that *the people of* Ireland and Wales
together with the Basques are the oldest surviving cultural groups who
remained in the areas where they are at present."

Are you saying that the earliest inhabitants of Ireland and Wales were
Celts? In what sense?

How about the possibility that the majority population of these
countries remained unchanged but ended up speaking what we now call
Celtic languages because of the cultural prestige or domination of a
minority of newcomers who imposed their language on the natives?

And we should remember that no one in the British Isles ever called
themselves Celts before about 1700 AD.

Alan

We have an extensive body of lore from a period far in advance of
teh medieval period which was only written down at the later
time. It was preserved by the Druids themselves before that using
their trained memories. Considering how the Vedas were preserved
in much teh same way would be a good parallel example.
....

"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:QhuOg.16557$E02.6548@newsb.telia.net...
"Inger E" <inger_e.johansson@nospamtelia.com> wrote in message
news:D1tOg.16554$E02.6429@newsb.telia.net...

large snip
I'd just like to discuss something that you call "undiscussible" in
the
following paragraph:

Now there are an undiscussible fact that the Celts not only placed
their
footprints on the Europe to be sometime in the distant future.
It's
also an
undiscussible fact that Celts in Ireland and Wales together with
the
Basques
are the oldest surviving cultural groups who remained in the areas
where
they are at present. All other groups including the so called
original
ethnic groups are late, some later than other non-original ethnic
groups, in
the areas where they live at present.

Now, I could have accepted that easily if you had written:

"It's also an undiscussible fact that *the people of* Ireland and
Wales
together with the Basques are the oldest surviving cultural groups
who
remained in the areas where they are at present."

That was what I intended. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Are you saying that the earliest inhabitants of Ireland and Wales
were
Celts? In what sense?

No I am not. I am saying that Celt is more of a Cultural identity, at
least
in later milleniums. And that the Celtic identity has been 'inherited'
down.
In earlier I am not sure we knows for sure.

How about the possibility that the majority population of these
countries remained unchanged but ended up speaking what we now call
Celtic languages because of the cultural prestige or domination of a
minority of newcomers who imposed their language on the natives?

That's what I mean by saying we don't know for sure. Only that it's
possible
either way.

And we should remember that no one in the British Isles ever called
themselves Celts before about 1700 AD.

Well that we can discuss. I am very sure that I have a reference from
one or
more of the Medieval English monk's writing there is a reference to
the
Celts.

"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:XtuOg.16561$E02.6507@newsb.telia.net...

"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:QhuOg.16557$E02.6548@newsb.telia.net...
"Inger E" <inger_e.johansson@nospamtelia.com> wrote in message
news:D1tOg.16554$E02.6429@newsb.telia.net...

large snip
I'd just like to discuss something that you call "undiscussible" in
the
following paragraph:

Now there are an undiscussible fact that the Celts not only placed
their
footprints on the Europe to be sometime in the distant future.
It's
also an
undiscussible fact that Celts in Ireland and Wales together with
the
Basques
are the oldest surviving cultural groups who remained in the areas
where
they are at present. All other groups including the so called
original
ethnic groups are late, some later than other non-original ethnic
groups, in
the areas where they live at present.

Now, I could have accepted that easily if you had written:

"It's also an undiscussible fact that *the people of* Ireland and
Wales
together with the Basques are the oldest surviving cultural groups
who
remained in the areas where they are at present."

That was what I intended. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

Are you saying that the earliest inhabitants of Ireland and Wales
were
Celts? In what sense?

No I am not. I am saying that Celt is more of a Cultural identity, at
least
in later milleniums. And that the Celtic identity has been 'inherited'
down.
In earlier I am not sure we knows for sure.

Agreed. The Celtic identity is a cultural identity that has been
inherited (since about 1700 AD). There may have been some sense of
shared cultural identity before that, but the insular bearers of that
identity did not use the word "Celtic" to define it.

How about the possibility that the majority population of these
countries remained unchanged but ended up speaking what we now call
Celtic languages because of the cultural prestige or domination of a
minority of newcomers who imposed their language on the natives?

That's what I mean by saying we don't know for sure. Only that it's
possible
either way.

And we should remember that no one in the British Isles ever called
themselves Celts before about 1700 AD.

Well that we can discuss. I am very sure that I have a reference from
one or
more of the Medieval English monk's writing there is a reference to
the
Celts.

It would be spectacular if you could find it. I don't think anyone else
has ever seen it.

Alan

I am pretty sure that it was one of the Prof Chadwick who in a work
sent me
looking for the source refered. So I guess someone else must have seen
it
but not noted it for everyone else to see. Anyhow I know that it's in
my
A5-sized handwritten cards from before I had a computer of my own and
that I
wrote it down at approx same time I had the pleasure of having some
sources
borrowed from England to be read. Probably in 1993 or 94.

More later. I haven't been able to sit more than 30 min to 1 hour each
time
by the computer lately due to ache in the heel..... Have to go back to
bed.

"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:S8zOg.16574$E02.6486@newsb.telia.net...

I am pretty sure that it was one of the Prof Chadwick who in a work
sent me
looking for the source refered. So I guess someone else must have seen
it
but not noted it for everyone else to see. Anyhow I know that it's in
my
A5-sized handwritten cards from before I had a computer of my own and
that I
wrote it down at approx same time I had the pleasure of having some
sources
borrowed from England to be read. Probably in 1993 or 94.

Well, it's totally unknown to today's Celtic scholars, the OED, and
other authorities.

More later. I haven't been able to sit more than 30 min to 1 hour each
time
by the computer lately due to ache in the heel..... Have to go back to
bed.

I had to look up that thing you have in your heel: it's called a
calcaneal spur in English. Doesn't sound nice at all. Do you think
you'll be able to go to the Book Fair?

Alan

"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:V5AOg.16585$E02.6436@newsb.telia.net...
I had to look up that thing you have in your heel: it's called a
calcaneal spur in English. Doesn't sound nice at all. Do you think
you'll be able to go to the Book Fair?

I most certainly hope so. Will you?

"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:WZAOg.16609$E02.6512@newsb.telia.net...

"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:V5AOg.16585$E02.6436@newsb.telia.net...
I had to look up that thing you have in your heel: it's called a
calcaneal spur in English. Doesn't sound nice at all. Do you think
you'll be able to go to the Book Fair?

I most certainly hope so. Will you?

If so it would be on the Saturday. Don't know yet. We talk about going
every year but it has never happened. Pity it's in such an
out-of-the-way place!

Alan