| |
 |
|
| Science Forum Index » Archaeology Forum » Druidism |
|
Page 4 of 4 Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 |
|
| Author |
Message |
| Doug Weller |
 Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:35 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:59:49 GMT, in sci.archaeology, Alan Crozier wrote:
[quote:4a2cfba987]"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:S8zOg.16574$E02.6486@newsb.telia.net...
I am pretty sure that it was one of the Prof Chadwick who in a work
sent me
looking for the source refered. So I guess someone else must have seen
it
but not noted it for everyone else to see. Anyhow I know that it's in
my
A5-sized handwritten cards from before I had a computer of my own and
that I
wrote it down at approx same time I had the pleasure of having some
sources
borrowed from England to be read. Probably in 1993 or 94.
Well, it's totally unknown to today's Celtic scholars, the OED, and
other authorities.
[/quote:4a2cfba987]
I can't imagine Nora Chadwick having known this and not having written
about it.
Doug
[SNIP]
--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/ |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Doug Weller |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:36 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On 14 Sep 2006 21:44:05 -0700, in sci.archaeology, roge wrote:
[SNIP]
[quote:1a5cdd8d92]Most of this anti-nationalism now has to do with the EU and how
archaeology is to
be interpreted and dumbed down and different periods emphasized and
taught.
[/quote:1a5cdd8d92]
This is an insult to archaeologists. Their ideas are not controlled by
the EU.
[SNIP]
Doug
--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/ |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Guest |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:37 pm |
|
|
|
|
Lisbeth Andersson wrote:
[quote:415b3703e9]odubhain@comcast.net wrote in
news:1158149128.845218.238560@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
....
We have an extensive body of lore from a period far in advance of
teh medieval period which was only written down at the later
time. It was preserved by the Druids themselves before that using
their trained memories. Considering how the Vedas were preserved
in much teh same way would be a good parallel example.
....
One reason the Vedas are accepted as really old is that they were
composed in very old sanskrit, and are still, today, recited that way.
Is there anything similar about the druid litterature, oral or
written, that shows that it had been around a long time before it was
written down?
Lisbeth.
[/quote:415b3703e9]
The oldest form of the Irish language that was recorded is Ogam Irish
or Proto-Irish. It predates Old-Irish by hundreds of years. We have
ameager sampling of it on stones, bone, metal and amber. It was said to
mainly be written on wooden staves though there was also a spoken form
based on kennings and "dark speech" as well as a sign language for
secret communication. The Druids and Filidh were known to have a
"Dark Speech" which was known as "Bearla na Filidh." The
Brehons or lawyers had their own language known as Bearla na Feni.
These were most likely older versions of Irish that was closer to
Old-Celtic or even proto-Celtic.
Here's a few good links about some of this. I hope to post from the
Auraicept na n-Éces (the Scholars' Primer) when I get home tomorrow:
Indo-European, Celtic, and Irish
http://www.fiosfeasa.com/bearla/language/indo.htm
The Poetic Brehon Lawyers Of Early Sixteenth Century Ireland
http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/celtic/22papers/simms.pdf#search=%22bEARLA%20fILIDH%22
Two Thousand Years of Legal Education in Ireland
http://webjcli.ncl.ac.uk/2006/issue3/herron3.html
Searles O'Dubhain |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Peter Alaca |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:01 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Doug Weller wrote: news:uk3mg21ptdbfmtff2vghsupii2gbi8sr95@4ax.com
[quote:c52aed15da]On 14 Sep 2006 21:44:05 -0700, in sci.archaeology, roge wrote:
[SNIP]
Most of this anti-nationalism now has to do with the EU and how
archaeology is to
be interpreted and dumbed down and different periods emphasized and
taught.
This is an insult to archaeologists. Their ideas are not controlled
by the EU.
[/quote:c52aed15da]
And of course an insult to the EU.
--
p.a. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Eric Stevens |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:35 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:59:49 GMT, "Alan Crozier"
<name1.name2@telia.com> wrote:
[quote:ee4edc92f3]"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:S8zOg.16574$E02.6486@newsb.telia.net...
I am pretty sure that it was one of the Prof Chadwick who in a work
sent me
looking for the source refered. So I guess someone else must have seen
it
but not noted it for everyone else to see. Anyhow I know that it's in
my
A5-sized handwritten cards from before I had a computer of my own and
that I
wrote it down at approx same time I had the pleasure of having some
sources
borrowed from England to be read. Probably in 1993 or 94.
Well, it's totally unknown to today's Celtic scholars, the OED, and
other authorities.
More later. I haven't been able to sit more than 30 min to 1 hour each
time
by the computer lately due to ache in the heel..... Have to go back to
bed.
I had to look up that thing you have in your heel: it's called a
calcaneal spur in English. Doesn't sound nice at all. Do you think
you'll be able to go to the Book Fair?
[/quote:ee4edc92f3]
I can tell you that for several years you may experience considerable
pain in the affected foot when walking but over a period of time it
will eventually go away. You will find some shoes are better than
others for walking in. You will find quite a bit of information on the
internet under the heading of 'heel spur'.
Eric Stevens |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| prd |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:03 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
In sci.archaeology message news:450b1494$0$56602$dbd4d001@news.wanadoo.nl by
"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> . . . :
[quote:cf3398d068]Doug Weller wrote: news:uk3mg21ptdbfmtff2vghsupii2gbi8sr95@4ax.com
On 14 Sep 2006 21:44:05 -0700, in sci.archaeology, roge wrote:
[SNIP]
Most of this anti-nationalism now has to do with the EU and how
archaeology is to
be interpreted and dumbed down and different periods emphasized and
taught.
This is an insult to archaeologists. Their ideas are not controlled
by the EU.
And of course an insult to the EU.
[/quote:cf3398d068]
It's impossible to insult the EU. It is an unnatural coalition
of unwilling partners. Its like insulting a divorced couple
in the middle of a mexican standoff. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Searles O'Dubhain |
| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:52 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Lisbeth Andersson" <lisand@bredband.net> wrote in message
news:Xns983F80617FB01lisandbredbandnet@66.150.105.47...
[quote:a487daea35]odubhain@comcast.net wrote in
news:1158149128.845218.238560@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
....
We have an extensive body of lore from a period far in advance of
teh medieval period which was only written down at the later
time. It was preserved by the Druids themselves before that using
their trained memories. Considering how the Vedas were preserved
in much teh same way would be a good parallel example.
....
One reason the Vedas are accepted as really old is that they were
composed in very old sanskrit, and are still, today, recited that way.
Is there anything similar about the druid litterature, oral or
written, that shows that it had been around a long time before it was
written down?
[/quote:a487daea35]
In Auraceipt na n-Éces (The Scholars Primer) it is said that Irish had
five parts:
Berla Feni - The Language of the Irish (this is the high level language
of the educated; the laws were preserved in this language). This was
primarily used by the Druids, Brehons (Lawyers) and Filidh (Poets) for
official business like law, ritual and ceremony.
Iarmberla - This translates as the additional language (I'm not clear on
specifics concerning this language)
Berla n-Edarscartha eitir na feadhaib - The Language Parted among the
trees (this is Ogam Irish or the Ogam themselves). This is a language
that is considered a natural language, yet it also was used for
encryption and for memory lists.
Berla na Filidh - The Secret Language of the Poets (sometimes known as
the "Dark Speech" because it obscures meaning through the use of
kennings and metaphors). The Poets used this language to converse among
themselves, in tests and initiations, in producing chants, invocations
and satires, especially when they wanted to reserve their meanings to
the learned only.
Gnathberla Fogni - The common language that serves everyone. This is
what became Old and Middle Irish, and eventually Modern Irish. Since a
Druid was a priest, a lawyer, a poet, a doctor and a historian for the
people, they would have used each of the five parts of Irish as
appropriate but most certainly would have reserved the first four parts
for themselves. Caesar says this about their ways and the Auraicept say
it explicitly about Ogam and Berla na Filidh.
Searles O'Dubhain |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Searles O'Dubhain |
| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:30 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Michael Kuettner" <miksbg@eunet.at> wrote in message
news:ee9fhj$blk$1@atlas.ip-plus.net...
[quote:5b984ee6d6]
"Searles O'Dubhain" <odubhain@comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:_bCdnY0STMYpxpnYnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message
news:45044b49$1$41151$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl...
Michael Kuettner wrote: news:ee1gv1$o3b$1@atlas.ip-plus.net
Since Doug and Searles were talking about Druidism in the
Stonehenge
thread, I'd be interested in how "Druidism" is defined in the
Anglo-Saxon context. What are the characteristics ?
From what time onwards are Druids detectable ?
Here on the continent, I can't find more than a loose set of
overlappings for "Druidism".
Were the druids using shafts for deposing the bones of their
sacrifices ? Which animals were sacrificed ?
Did the British Celts keep the heads of their enemies as a trophy ?
Any signs for the adaption of chthonic gods ?
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
--
p.a.
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned in
relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites, votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images of
deities/spirits.
But in you other posts you seem to claim that it was a kind of
synthesis
from older cultures and the new arriving Celts (we leave the
definition of that
term for later;-)).
Is that right ?
[/quote:5b984ee6d6]
Druidism has always been associated with scholarship as well as
spirituality. It's only natural for it to incorporate news ideas,
knowledge and even traditions into its own as the knowledge of each is
validated through experience. Much the same thing occurs in any branch
of science today.
The status items associated with Druids in Celtic culture were elaborate
headdresses, feather cloaks, multi-colored or white clothing, harps and
other musical instruments, writing, gold, silver and bronze bell
branches and anything to do with gaming,
astrology/astronomy/medicine/law/natural science. If one finds these
objects in a Celtic context or signs of their usage or presence, then
one has also discovered signs of a Druidic presence. When one finds such
things in a pre-Celtic context in the same or close geographical
locations, the extent to which they differ might tell one more about the
presence or nature of Druids across the ages.
[quote:5b984ee6d6]
If yes, there should be some rites from the protoBasque and
protoSardinians
which merged with the rites of the protoCelts. AFAIK, there have been
shown
no such connections.
(If no, ignore the question).
[/quote:5b984ee6d6]
This is unclear to me as in other threads it has been shown that the
people in Ireland are associated with these other groups through
genetics and yet there was most definitely a Druidic impact on the
cultural activities and rituals in Ireland.
Perhaps the study of such things in Basque and Sardinian areas of
habitation haven't yet been investigated? There were Celtic-Iberians and
an accompanying legend of Celtic settlers from there in the Irish
traditional tales. ISTM that most scientists and scholars veer away from
investigating anything to do with Druids and to a lesser extents Celts
because its not in vogue or subject to substantial ridicule in academic
circles. Such a study would likely take extensive resources and years
(maybe even a lifetime) of dedicated work. It's my impression that few
would undertake such a risk unless motivated by other factors like
cultural pride, family traditions or a spiritual enlightenment. Time
and intention will tell as I'm confident that human curiosity will wind
out over any sense of insecurity.
Searles O'Dubhain |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| deowll |
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:34 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message
news:450574fb$0$94128$dbd4f001@news.wanadoo.nl...
[quote:c9da729e01]prd wrote: news:rlcNg.105594$5i3.64874@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
In sci.archaeology message
news:45051f91$1$13688$dbd4b001@news.wanadoo.nl by "Peter Alaca"
P.Alaca@sep.nn> . . . :
prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote
prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" . . . :
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be
mentioned in relation to Druids. Some of these things are
ritual sites, votive deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold
ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
While technically you are correct, at 400 gods
of various geographic origins I would find
it hard to beleive that there was no
connection with the western celtic cultural
wave.
Doug keeps supporting this line but
almost everyone assumes there is a connection.
Try this: how do you recognize the existence
of Lutheran clergymen in the archaeological
records?
I know the reservation, its just its a bit
pedantic, given the evidence for overlapping.
The only problem is that no-one is perfectly
clear on what druidism is.
Yes, that is the whole point, and therefore you can't say,
as Searles did, that ritual sites, votive deposits, cauldrons,
lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images of deities/spirits
are signs of druidism.
With 400 gods in their pantheon, and a 'cultic'
find in an area were druids practiced, ...
What was that area where druids practiced?
... if not identified with some other belief, chances are
it was druidism.
How do you identify druidism and how do you
distinguish it from other beliefs?
[/quote:c9da729e01]
Now that was a good question if only we had some other beliefs recorded from
the region.
[quote:c9da729e01]
What other religions (other then roman polytheism
and christianity) of the pre medieval period were
practiced in NW europe that might be associated
with the megaliths or other cultic phenomena.
The celts had religious believes, no-one in their
right mind would argue they were atheist. Since
they had a religion somehow that religion
should be knowable and identifyable.
--
p.a.
[/quote:c9da729e01] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| deowll |
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:34 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message
news:450487e8$0$9645$dbd43001@news.wanadoo.nl...
[quote:b79f31a2f3]Searles O'Dubhain wrote: news:_bCdnY0STMYpxpnYnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@comcast.com
"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message
news:45044b49$1$41151$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl...
Michael Kuettner wrote: news:ee1gv1$o3b$1@atlas.ip-plus.net
Since Doug and Searles were talking about Druidism in the Stonehenge
thread, I'd be interested in how "Druidism" is defined in the
Anglo-Saxon context. What are the characteristics ?
From what time onwards are Druids detectable ?
Here on the continent, I can't find more than a loose set of
overlappings for "Druidism".
Were the druids using shafts for deposing the bones of their
sacrifices ? Which animals were sacrificed ?
Did the British Celts keep the heads of their enemies as a trophy ?
Any signs for the adaption of chthonic gods ?
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites, votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
[/quote:b79f31a2f3]
The answer to that first is not really all that well known except in a
supeficial way. While some people like to limit their existance to historic
times based on classical mention they were already spread across Europe by
then and the gods and spirits worshiped tended to have a very local flavor
suggesting that they had been in place or developed with from local
traditions over a rather long span of time across much of Europe. A major
issue is any lack of any vestage of older predruidic religions in the region
at the time a given population entered history.
It is not very clear to me how one would prove that a given item belonged to
a druid even if it similar to something a druid might be expected to own.
This is more true if one claims that other alternative religous traditions
existed in the region that were replaced by the druids. I make no such
claims but others seem to.
[quote:b79f31a2f3]--
p.a.
[/quote:b79f31a2f3] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| deowll |
| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:50 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"prd" <X_header@address.net> wrote in message
news:pkJNg.31861$QM6.30686@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
[quote:5e6af5d2cc]In sci.archaeology message news:1158108098.359612.223250
@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com by odubhain@comcast.net . . . :
prd wrote:
In sci.archaeology message news:1158018212.885642.316230
@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com by odubhain@comcast.net . . . :
snip
OK, Here is the magic question.
Explain the Ulster Cycle and why it was so politically important
to pre christian Ireland, then explain the role of druidism played
into the Ulster Cycle.
Ni hansa,
Battle from the North.
The Wheel Ogham of Roigni Rocadach.
Táin Bó Cuailgne.
Cathbadh and Cú Chulainn.
Is this greek? Maybe Hebrew, how about Swahili. Tell me when I am
getting close.
What is a "Cycle" and why are various epochs in early Ireland
called Cycles instead of stories or myths.
A cycle has two wheels.
A bicycle does but a unicycle does not.
[/quote:5e6af5d2cc]
A cycle is something that repeats though this one may have been modeled on a
chariot.
[quote:5e6af5d2cc]
In the case of Ireland, one of these spins
tuathail and tyhe other spins dessal. Ask Conn or Mug or discuss it
with Eremon and Eber.
That makes all of no sense.
[/quote:5e6af5d2cc]
He told you to ask the correct gods and named them.
[quote:5e6af5d2cc]
Provide reference literature in support of your belief.
Auraicept na n-Éces
Lebor Gabála Érenn
Senchus Mór
Lebor Na Núachongbála
If you can answer this question in a way that makes sense
more than say all the other vaque sources I might believe
your interpretation of the druids. (if for no other reason than
to piss Eric and Doug off, lol).
Sorry. Wait for the rest of the books to be published if the ones
mentioned above don't clear up the vagueness for you.
Slán is beannacht,
[/quote:5e6af5d2cc] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Guest |
| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:22 pm |
|
|
|
|
In article <jUlTg.30459$tT6.30065@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
deowll@bellsouth.net (deowll) wrote:
[quote:f0b22b3df1]and while
many people confuse the Greek and Roman religous beliefs and
practices they weren't the same either nor did they stay the
same through time.
[/quote:f0b22b3df1]
The problem there was that both cultures were syncratic though
not to the extent of the Egyptians. As a result they not only
absorbed other gods into their pantheons they also identified
existing gods with new ones. As a result using Roman or Greek
sources for the religions of neighbours is fraught with
difficulty.
Ken Young |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
The time now is Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:39 am
|
|