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| Michael Kuettner |
 Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:35 pm |
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Guest
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"Searles O'Dubhain" <odubhain@comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:_bCdnY0STMYpxpnYnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
[quote:3352423460]
"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message news:45044b49$1$41151$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl...
Michael Kuettner wrote: news:ee1gv1$o3b$1@atlas.ip-plus.net
Since Doug and Searles were talking about Druidism in the Stonehenge
thread, I'd be interested in how "Druidism" is defined in the
Anglo-Saxon context. What are the characteristics ?
From what time onwards are Druids detectable ?
Here on the continent, I can't find more than a loose set of
overlappings for "Druidism".
Were the druids using shafts for deposing the bones of their
sacrifices ? Which animals were sacrificed ?
Did the British Celts keep the heads of their enemies as a trophy ?
Any signs for the adaption of chthonic gods ?
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
--
p.a.
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites, votive deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
But in you other posts you seem to claim that it was a kind of synthesis[/quote:3352423460]
from older cultures and the new arriving Celts (we leave the definition of that
term for later;-)).
Is that right ?
If yes, there should be some rites from the protoBasque and protoSardinians
which merged with the rites of the protoCelts. AFAIK, there have been shown
no such connections.
(If no, ignore the question).
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:21 pm |
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Inger E wrote:
<snip>
[quote:86346a8c85]
Searles,
I am a bit confused, not by your lines which completely confirms what I have
been taught myself mainly in subject history at university level, but also
in 1th-9th grade (which we call groundschool).
And that's where I am confused. I thought that every student, at least
students studying history or archaeology, in Europe learnt the main facts in
other word (quoting from your lines above) "Knowledge that was preserved
from insular histories and classical accounts." and some bits in pieces from
those. Do you believe that we in Sweden are the only one to learn about this
outside Ireland. Can't be true, can it?
Inger E
[/quote:86346a8c85]
Inger,
I think that most Western Civilization courses and histories are more
centered on Greek and Roman versions of history and the one fostered by
the Roman Catholic Church. I do see more and more inclusion rather
than exclusion of alternative and native histories in the classes
offered in the schools and the available books and references. I'm
optomistic that future histries will provide a more objective
discoyurse on what actually happend in th eworld than we've had up to
now. You should see what a spin U.S. History puts on World History. :-)
Searles |
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| Inger-Eleonora |
| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:33 pm |
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<odubhain@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1158171662.288183.15980@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
[quote:a47b1198ec]
Inger E wrote:
snip
Searles,
I am a bit confused, not by your lines which completely confirms what I
have
been taught myself mainly in subject history at university level, but
also
in 1th-9th grade (which we call groundschool).
And that's where I am confused. I thought that every student, at least
students studying history or archaeology, in Europe learnt the main
facts in
other word (quoting from your lines above) "Knowledge that was preserved
from insular histories and classical accounts." and some bits in pieces
from
those. Do you believe that we in Sweden are the only one to learn about
this
outside Ireland. Can't be true, can it?
Inger E
Inger,
I think that most Western Civilization courses and histories are more
centered on Greek and Roman versions of history and the one fostered by
the Roman Catholic Church. I do see more and more inclusion rather
than exclusion of alternative and native histories in the classes
offered in the schools and the available books and references. I'm
optomistic that future histries will provide a more objective
discoyurse on what actually happend in th eworld than we've had up to
now. You should see what a spin U.S. History puts on World History. :-)
Searles
[/quote:a47b1198ec]
Searles,
I am glad not having to see those books..... 
Especially glad not having to use them when teaching.
I love the Greeks and the Romans, and the Babylonians and the Egyptians,
make no mistake about that.... but to reading the Irish tales in origin or
translated into English, to read Celtic works written by scholars knowing
what they are talking about, is as thrilling as reading a good novel....
well actually better because there are things never told anywhere else maybe
children's short stories excluded.
When I first read about two brothers who came in fight long from home, one
got killed and the other who couldn't take the body but chosed to take his
brother's head so he once again should be able to see the 'homeland', I came
to be more and more interested learning about the factors behind such a
religious (?) behavior.
Inger E
> |
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| Alan Crozier |
| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:28 pm |
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"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:D9YNg.16388$E02.6426@newsb.telia.net...
[quote:e13e5a0b37]Searles,
I am glad not having to see those books.....
Especially glad not having to use them when teaching.
I love the Greeks and the Romans, and the Babylonians and the
Egyptians,
make no mistake about that.... but to reading the Irish tales in
origin or
translated into English, to read Celtic works written by scholars
knowing
what they are talking about, is as thrilling as reading a good
novel....
well actually better because there are things never told anywhere else
maybe
children's short stories excluded.
[/quote:e13e5a0b37]
Reading Irish tales in the original is, as you say, very thrilling, if
only because Old Irish is a very difficult language.
When I studied it at Cambridge we had to read a number of texts during
the year, including Scéla Mucce Meic Dathó and stories from the Táin. We
all knew that the examination at the end of the year would include a
passage from each book which had to be translated into English. One
student found the text so hard to understand that he decided to bluff
his way by memorizing the complete English translation. Unfortunately,
he did not quite recognize the extract that came up in the exam, with
the result that he provided a perfect English translation of a
completely different passage.
I hope the thrills you have experienced in reading Old Irish have been
of a different kind.
Alan |
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| Alan Crozier |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:22 am |
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Guest
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"Inger E" <inger_e.johansson@nospamtelia.com> wrote in message
news:D1tOg.16554$E02.6429@newsb.telia.net...
[quote:f43b28f65f]
large snip[/quote:f43b28f65f]
I'd just like to discuss something that you call "undiscussible" in the
following paragraph:
[quote:f43b28f65f]Now there are an undiscussible fact that the Celts not only placed
their
footprints on the Europe to be sometime in the distant future. It's
also an
undiscussible fact that Celts in Ireland and Wales together with the
Basques
are the oldest surviving cultural groups who remained in the areas
where
they are at present. All other groups including the so called original
ethnic groups are late, some later than other non-original ethnic
groups, in
the areas where they live at present.
[/quote:f43b28f65f]
Now, I could have accepted that easily if you had written:
"It's also an undiscussible fact that *the people of* Ireland and Wales
together with the Basques are the oldest surviving cultural groups who
remained in the areas where they are at present."
Are you saying that the earliest inhabitants of Ireland and Wales were
Celts? In what sense?
How about the possibility that the majority population of these
countries remained unchanged but ended up speaking what we now call
Celtic languages because of the cultural prestige or domination of a
minority of newcomers who imposed their language on the natives?
And we should remember that no one in the British Isles ever called
themselves Celts before about 1700 AD.
Alan |
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| Inger-Eleonora |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:35 am |
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Guest
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"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:QhuOg.16557$E02.6548@newsb.telia.net...
[quote:0b060ef6ea]"Inger E" <inger_e.johansson@nospamtelia.com> wrote in message
news:D1tOg.16554$E02.6429@newsb.telia.net...
large snip
I'd just like to discuss something that you call "undiscussible" in the
following paragraph:
Now there are an undiscussible fact that the Celts not only placed
their
footprints on the Europe to be sometime in the distant future. It's
also an
undiscussible fact that Celts in Ireland and Wales together with the
Basques
are the oldest surviving cultural groups who remained in the areas
where
they are at present. All other groups including the so called original
ethnic groups are late, some later than other non-original ethnic
groups, in
the areas where they live at present.
Now, I could have accepted that easily if you had written:
"It's also an undiscussible fact that *the people of* Ireland and Wales
together with the Basques are the oldest surviving cultural groups who
remained in the areas where they are at present."
[/quote:0b060ef6ea]
That was what I intended. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
[quote:0b060ef6ea]
Are you saying that the earliest inhabitants of Ireland and Wales were
Celts? In what sense?
[/quote:0b060ef6ea]
No I am not. I am saying that Celt is more of a Cultural identity, at least
in later milleniums. And that the Celtic identity has been 'inherited' down.
In earlier I am not sure we knows for sure.
[quote:0b060ef6ea]
How about the possibility that the majority population of these
countries remained unchanged but ended up speaking what we now call
Celtic languages because of the cultural prestige or domination of a
minority of newcomers who imposed their language on the natives?
[/quote:0b060ef6ea]
That's what I mean by saying we don't know for sure. Only that it's possible
either way.
[quote:0b060ef6ea]
And we should remember that no one in the British Isles ever called
themselves Celts before about 1700 AD.
[/quote:0b060ef6ea]
Well that we can discuss. I am very sure that I have a reference from one or
more of the Medieval English monk's writing there is a reference to the
Celts.
Inger E
[quote:0b060ef6ea]
Alan
[/quote:0b060ef6ea] |
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| Lisbeth Andersson |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:41 am |
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odubhain@comcast.net wrote in
news:1158149128.845218.238560@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
<....>
[quote:b876d3142f]We have an extensive body of lore from a period far in advance of
teh medieval period which was only written down at the later
time. It was preserved by the Druids themselves before that using
their trained memories. Considering how the Vedas were preserved
in much teh same way would be a good parallel example.
....[/quote:b876d3142f]
One reason the Vedas are accepted as really old is that they were
composed in very old sanskrit, and are still, today, recited that way.
Is there anything similar about the druid litterature, oral or
written, that shows that it had been around a long time before it was
written down?
Lisbeth.
----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
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| Alan Crozier |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:18 am |
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Guest
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"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:XtuOg.16561$E02.6507@newsb.telia.net...
[quote:15624e86cb]
"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:QhuOg.16557$E02.6548@newsb.telia.net...
"Inger E" <inger_e.johansson@nospamtelia.com> wrote in message
news:D1tOg.16554$E02.6429@newsb.telia.net...
large snip
I'd just like to discuss something that you call "undiscussible" in
the
following paragraph:
Now there are an undiscussible fact that the Celts not only placed
their
footprints on the Europe to be sometime in the distant future.
It's
also an
undiscussible fact that Celts in Ireland and Wales together with
the
Basques
are the oldest surviving cultural groups who remained in the areas
where
they are at present. All other groups including the so called
original
ethnic groups are late, some later than other non-original ethnic
groups, in
the areas where they live at present.
Now, I could have accepted that easily if you had written:
"It's also an undiscussible fact that *the people of* Ireland and
Wales
together with the Basques are the oldest surviving cultural groups
who
remained in the areas where they are at present."
That was what I intended. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
[/quote:15624e86cb]
OK, thanks for the clarification.
[quote:15624e86cb]Are you saying that the earliest inhabitants of Ireland and Wales
were
Celts? In what sense?
No I am not. I am saying that Celt is more of a Cultural identity, at
least
in later milleniums. And that the Celtic identity has been 'inherited'
down.
In earlier I am not sure we knows for sure.
[/quote:15624e86cb]
Agreed. The Celtic identity is a cultural identity that has been
inherited (since about 1700 AD). There may have been some sense of
shared cultural identity before that, but the insular bearers of that
identity did not use the word "Celtic" to define it.
[quote:15624e86cb]How about the possibility that the majority population of these
countries remained unchanged but ended up speaking what we now call
Celtic languages because of the cultural prestige or domination of a
minority of newcomers who imposed their language on the natives?
That's what I mean by saying we don't know for sure. Only that it's
possible
either way.
And we should remember that no one in the British Isles ever called
themselves Celts before about 1700 AD.
Well that we can discuss. I am very sure that I have a reference from
one or
more of the Medieval English monk's writing there is a reference to
the
Celts.
[/quote:15624e86cb]
It would be spectacular if you could find it. I don't think anyone else
has ever seen it.
Alan |
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| Inger-Eleonora |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:54 am |
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Guest
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"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:w5vOg.16566$E02.6502@newsb.telia.net...
[quote:856f2ba259]
"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:XtuOg.16561$E02.6507@newsb.telia.net...
"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:QhuOg.16557$E02.6548@newsb.telia.net...
"Inger E" <inger_e.johansson@nospamtelia.com> wrote in message
news:D1tOg.16554$E02.6429@newsb.telia.net...
large snip
I'd just like to discuss something that you call "undiscussible" in
the
following paragraph:
Now there are an undiscussible fact that the Celts not only placed
their
footprints on the Europe to be sometime in the distant future.
It's
also an
undiscussible fact that Celts in Ireland and Wales together with
the
Basques
are the oldest surviving cultural groups who remained in the areas
where
they are at present. All other groups including the so called
original
ethnic groups are late, some later than other non-original ethnic
groups, in
the areas where they live at present.
Now, I could have accepted that easily if you had written:
"It's also an undiscussible fact that *the people of* Ireland and
Wales
together with the Basques are the oldest surviving cultural groups
who
remained in the areas where they are at present."
That was what I intended. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
OK, thanks for the clarification.
Are you saying that the earliest inhabitants of Ireland and Wales
were
Celts? In what sense?
No I am not. I am saying that Celt is more of a Cultural identity, at
least
in later milleniums. And that the Celtic identity has been 'inherited'
down.
In earlier I am not sure we knows for sure.
Agreed. The Celtic identity is a cultural identity that has been
inherited (since about 1700 AD). There may have been some sense of
shared cultural identity before that, but the insular bearers of that
identity did not use the word "Celtic" to define it.
How about the possibility that the majority population of these
countries remained unchanged but ended up speaking what we now call
Celtic languages because of the cultural prestige or domination of a
minority of newcomers who imposed their language on the natives?
That's what I mean by saying we don't know for sure. Only that it's
possible
either way.
And we should remember that no one in the British Isles ever called
themselves Celts before about 1700 AD.
Well that we can discuss. I am very sure that I have a reference from
one or
more of the Medieval English monk's writing there is a reference to
the
Celts.
It would be spectacular if you could find it. I don't think anyone else
has ever seen it.
[/quote:856f2ba259]
I am pretty sure that it was one of the Prof Chadwick who in a work sent me
looking for the source refered. So I guess someone else must have seen it
but not noted it for everyone else to see. Anyhow I know that it's in my
A5-sized handwritten cards from before I had a computer of my own and that I
wrote it down at approx same time I had the pleasure of having some sources
borrowed from England to be read. Probably in 1993 or 94.
More later. I haven't been able to sit more than 30 min to 1 hour each time
by the computer lately due to ache in the heel..... Have to go back to bed.
Inger E
[quote:856f2ba259]
Alan
[/quote:856f2ba259] |
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| Alan Crozier |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:59 pm |
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Guest
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"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:S8zOg.16574$E02.6486@newsb.telia.net...
[quote:2d76aaa825]I am pretty sure that it was one of the Prof Chadwick who in a work
sent me
looking for the source refered. So I guess someone else must have seen
it
but not noted it for everyone else to see. Anyhow I know that it's in
my
A5-sized handwritten cards from before I had a computer of my own and
that I
wrote it down at approx same time I had the pleasure of having some
sources
borrowed from England to be read. Probably in 1993 or 94.
[/quote:2d76aaa825]
Well, it's totally unknown to today's Celtic scholars, the OED, and
other authorities.
[quote:2d76aaa825]More later. I haven't been able to sit more than 30 min to 1 hour each
time
by the computer lately due to ache in the heel..... Have to go back to
bed.[/quote:2d76aaa825]
I had to look up that thing you have in your heel: it's called a
calcaneal spur in English. Doesn't sound nice at all. Do you think
you'll be able to go to the Book Fair?
Alan |
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| Inger-Eleonora |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:59 pm |
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Guest
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"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:V5AOg.16585$E02.6436@newsb.telia.net...
[quote:48ca31aebf]"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:S8zOg.16574$E02.6486@newsb.telia.net...
I am pretty sure that it was one of the Prof Chadwick who in a work
sent me
looking for the source refered. So I guess someone else must have seen
it
but not noted it for everyone else to see. Anyhow I know that it's in
my
A5-sized handwritten cards from before I had a computer of my own and
that I
wrote it down at approx same time I had the pleasure of having some
sources
borrowed from England to be read. Probably in 1993 or 94.
Well, it's totally unknown to today's Celtic scholars, the OED, and
other authorities.
More later. I haven't been able to sit more than 30 min to 1 hour each
time
by the computer lately due to ache in the heel..... Have to go back to
bed.
I had to look up that thing you have in your heel: it's called a
calcaneal spur in English. Doesn't sound nice at all. Do you think
you'll be able to go to the Book Fair?
[/quote:48ca31aebf]
I most certainly hope so. Will you?
Inger E
[quote:48ca31aebf]
Alan
[/quote:48ca31aebf] |
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| Alan Crozier |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:47 pm |
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Guest
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"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:WZAOg.16609$E02.6512@newsb.telia.net...
[quote:1cd85d0434]
"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:V5AOg.16585$E02.6436@newsb.telia.net...
I had to look up that thing you have in your heel: it's called a
calcaneal spur in English. Doesn't sound nice at all. Do you think
you'll be able to go to the Book Fair?
I most certainly hope so. Will you?
[/quote:1cd85d0434]
If so it would be on the Saturday. Don't know yet. We talk about going
every year but it has never happened. Pity it's in such an
out-of-the-way place!
Alan |
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| Inger-Eleonora |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:04 pm |
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Guest
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"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:6HBOg.16615$E02.6373@newsb.telia.net...
[quote:04250b5d42]"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:WZAOg.16609$E02.6512@newsb.telia.net...
"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:V5AOg.16585$E02.6436@newsb.telia.net...
I had to look up that thing you have in your heel: it's called a
calcaneal spur in English. Doesn't sound nice at all. Do you think
you'll be able to go to the Book Fair?
I most certainly hope so. Will you?
If so it would be on the Saturday. Don't know yet. We talk about going
every year but it has never happened. Pity it's in such an
out-of-the-way place!
[/quote:04250b5d42]
Well definitely not an out-of-the-way place. Take the train to Gothenburg
and take tram 2 to Korsvägen. Can't be easier. From Centralstationen to
Korsvägen in 3 minuits.....
Inger E
[quote:04250b5d42]
Alan
[/quote:04250b5d42] |
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| Alan Crozier |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:22 pm |
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Guest
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"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:6PCOg.16631$E02.6376@newsb.telia.net...
[quote:5ff68aa853]
"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:6HBOg.16615$E02.6373@newsb.telia.net...
"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:WZAOg.16609$E02.6512@newsb.telia.net...
"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:V5AOg.16585$E02.6436@newsb.telia.net...
I had to look up that thing you have in your heel: it's called a
calcaneal spur in English. Doesn't sound nice at all. Do you
think
you'll be able to go to the Book Fair?
I most certainly hope so. Will you?
If so it would be on the Saturday. Don't know yet. We talk about
going
every year but it has never happened. Pity it's in such an
out-of-the-way place!
Well definitely not an out-of-the-way place. Take the train to
Gothenburg
and take tram 2 to Korsvägen. Can't be easier. From Centralstationen
to
Korsvägen in 3 minuits.....
[/quote:5ff68aa853]
I meant that the whole of Gothenburg is over 3 hours out of the way from
here!
Alan |
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| Inger-Eleonora |
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:33 pm |
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Guest
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"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:t3DOg.16632$E02.6579@newsb.telia.net...
[quote:12a20cb7da]"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:6PCOg.16631$E02.6376@newsb.telia.net...
"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:6HBOg.16615$E02.6373@newsb.telia.net...
"Inger-Eleonora" <inger_e.johansson@telia.com> wrote in message
news:WZAOg.16609$E02.6512@newsb.telia.net...
"Alan Crozier" <name1.name2@telia.com> wrote in message
news:V5AOg.16585$E02.6436@newsb.telia.net...
I had to look up that thing you have in your heel: it's called a
calcaneal spur in English. Doesn't sound nice at all. Do you
think
you'll be able to go to the Book Fair?
I most certainly hope so. Will you?
If so it would be on the Saturday. Don't know yet. We talk about
going
every year but it has never happened. Pity it's in such an
out-of-the-way place!
Well definitely not an out-of-the-way place. Take the train to
Gothenburg
and take tram 2 to Korsvägen. Can't be easier. From Centralstationen
to
Korsvägen in 3 minuits.....
I meant that the whole of Gothenburg is over 3 hours out of the way from
here!
[/quote:12a20cb7da]
And if you went to Stockholm you would have to spend
more than 4 hours on the train not to mention the time it takes from
Stockholm's Centralstation to the areas where Stockholm's fairs and
exhibition usually take place..... compare that with 2 hours 53 minuits
train + 5 minuits walk to tram which take 3 minuits......
Gothenburg has from it was founded always been and will always be Sweden's
port and face towards west, Jutland as well as England and over the Atlantic
to America.
Inger E
[quote:12a20cb7da]
Alan
[/quote:12a20cb7da] |
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