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| Peter Alaca |
 Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:33 am |
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Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
[quote:2a362c85e7]"Peter Alaca" wrote
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites, votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
I've already answered those questions in the appropriate place in this
thread. You're not reading and responding to the responses where they
have occurred..
[/quote:2a362c85e7]
I don't believe you did answer those questions,
especially not the all important las one.
..
--
p.a. |
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| Searles O'Dubhain |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:15 am |
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Guest
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"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message
news:45051f91$3$13688$dbd4b001@news.wanadoo.nl...
[quote:941a744669]Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites,
votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
I've already answered those questions in the appropriate place in
this
thread. You're not reading and responding to the responses where they
have occurred..
I don't believe you did answer those questions,
especially not the all important las one.
.
--
p.a.
[/quote:941a744669]
We have a disagreement about that.
Searles O'Dubhain |
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| Searles O'Dubhain |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:27 am |
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"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message
news:45051f91$3$13688$dbd4b001@news.wanadoo.nl...
[quote:a3a43dffb8]Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites,
votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
I've already answered those questions in the appropriate place in
this
thread. You're not reading and responding to the responses where they
have occurred..
I don't believe you did answer those questions,
especially not the all important las one.
.
--
p.a.
[/quote:a3a43dffb8]
Almost all of the later belief in Celtic deities has them living in the
"hollow hills" passage mounds or tumuli of the surrounding areas. In
Irish myth the gods are said to have been allowed to continue live
underground after their defeat by the Sons of Mil. Donn is the Lord of
the Dead and one's spirit goes to Donn's House when one dies. From there
it may go to an Otherworldly Island or it could have a shadow existence.
Most of the beliefs were in a much happier Otherworldly life. Crom was a
deity to who sacrifices were made at Harvest time so that the seed
(symbolized by a maiden) could once again be fertile and free to bring
prosperity of crops to the land and the people. I don't know how one
could be more chthonic than that.
Searles O'Dubhain |
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| Eric Stevens |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:57 am |
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On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:25:43 +0200, "Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn>
wrote:
[quote:f882a5ee5c]Eric Stevens wrote: news:v5n9g21p6fm3tmbbjaknuk0jcib2tb461e@4ax.com
prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" . . . :
prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" . . . :
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote in message
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites,
votive deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and
images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
While technically you are correct, at 400 gods
of various geographic origins I would find
it hard to beleive that there was no
connection with the western celtic cultural
wave.
Doug keeps supporting this line but
almost everyone assumes there is a connection.
Try this: how do you recognize the existence
of Lutheran clergymen in the archaeological
records?
I know the reservation, its just its a bit
pedantic, given the evidence for overlapping.
The only problem is that no-one is perfectly
clear on what druidism is.
Remeber the discussion on the bog bodies, these
cultic sacrifices were found in Ireland, England
Denmark, etc. Certainly celtic culture coexisted
with druidism and there is no such thing as an
official religion for a prehistoric culture.
Are you suggesting bog bodies are a determinant for druidism, or
celtic culture?
They certainly were not.
[/quote:f882a5ee5c]
I didn't think they were. I'm merely trying to ascertain prd's
position on this.
Eric Stevens |
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| prd |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:03 am |
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In sci.archaeology message news:v5n9g21p6fm3tmbbjaknuk0jcib2tb461e@4ax.com
by Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> . . . :
[quote:18578357f3]On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 02:24:57 GMT, prd <X_header@address.net> wrote:
In sci.archaeology message news:4504a42e$0$28058$dbd45001
@news.wanadoo.nl
by "Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> . . . :
prd wrote: news:c31Ng.100597$5i3.5657@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net
"Peter Alaca" . . . :
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote in message
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites, votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
While technically you are correct, at 400 gods
of various geographic origins I would find
it hard to beleive that there was no
connection with the western celtic cultural
wave.
Doug keeps supporting this line but
almost everyone assumes there is a connection.
Try this: how do you recognize the existence
of Lutheran clergymen in the archaeological
records?
I know the reservation, its just its a bit
pedantic, given the evidence for overlapping.
The only problem is that no-one is perfectly
clear on what druidism is.
Remeber the discussion on the bog bodies, these
cultic sacrifices were found in Ireland, England
Denmark, etc. Certainly celtic culture coexisted
with druidism and there is no such thing as an
official religion for a prehistoric culture.
Are you suggesting bog bodies are a determinant for druidism, or
celtic culture?
[/quote:18578357f3]
I am saying the same cultic culture was spread
widely in europe. |
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| prd |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:08 am |
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Guest
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In sci.archaeology message news:45051f91$1$13688$dbd4b001@news.wanadoo.nl
by "Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> . . . :
[quote:d6cc0673f6]prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote
prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" . . . :
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites,
votive deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and
images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
While technically you are correct, at 400 gods
of various geographic origins I would find
it hard to beleive that there was no
connection with the western celtic cultural
wave.
Doug keeps supporting this line but
almost everyone assumes there is a connection.
Try this: how do you recognize the existence
of Lutheran clergymen in the archaeological
records?
I know the reservation, its just its a bit
pedantic, given the evidence for overlapping.
The only problem is that no-one is perfectly
clear on what druidism is.
Yes, that is the whole point, and therefore you can't say,
as Searles did, that ritual sites, votive deposits, cauldrons,
lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images of deities/spirits
are signs of druidism.
[/quote:d6cc0673f6]
With 400 gods in their pantheon, and a 'cultic'
find in an area were druids practiced, if not
identified with some other belief, chances are
it was druidism.
What other religions (other then roman polytheism
and christianity) of the pre medieval period were
practiced in NW europe that might be associated
with the megaliths or other cultic phenomena.
The celts had religious believes, no-one in their
right mind would argue they were atheist. Since
they had a religion somehow that religion
should be knowable and identifyable. |
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| Peter Alaca |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:06 am |
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Guest
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prd wrote:
news:rlcNg.105594$5i3.64874@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
[quote:92b0fad6ad]In sci.archaeology message
news:45051f91$1$13688$dbd4b001@news.wanadoo.nl by "Peter Alaca"
P.Alaca@sep.nn> . . . :
prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote
prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" . . . :
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be
mentioned in relation to Druids. Some of these things are
ritual sites, votive deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold
ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
While technically you are correct, at 400 gods
of various geographic origins I would find
it hard to beleive that there was no
connection with the western celtic cultural
wave.
Doug keeps supporting this line but
almost everyone assumes there is a connection.
Try this: how do you recognize the existence
of Lutheran clergymen in the archaeological
records?
I know the reservation, its just its a bit
pedantic, given the evidence for overlapping.
The only problem is that no-one is perfectly
clear on what druidism is.
Yes, that is the whole point, and therefore you can't say,
as Searles did, that ritual sites, votive deposits, cauldrons,
lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images of deities/spirits
are signs of druidism.
With 400 gods in their pantheon, and a 'cultic'
find in an area were druids practiced, ...
[/quote:92b0fad6ad]
What was that area where druids practiced?
[quote:92b0fad6ad]... if not identified with some other belief, chances are
it was druidism.
[/quote:92b0fad6ad]
How do you identify druidism and how do you
distinguish it from other beliefs?
[quote:92b0fad6ad]What other religions (other then roman polytheism
and christianity) of the pre medieval period were
practiced in NW europe that might be associated
with the megaliths or other cultic phenomena.
The celts had religious believes, no-one in their
right mind would argue they were atheist. Since
they had a religion somehow that religion
should be knowable and identifyable.
[/quote:92b0fad6ad]
--
p.a. |
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| Uwe Müller |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:06 pm |
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Guest
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"Searles O'Dubhain" <odubhain@comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:jb6dnTOWIdu-p5jYnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
[quote:d9b6b419c3]
"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message
news:45051f91$3$13688$dbd4b001@news.wanadoo.nl...
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites,
votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
I've already answered those questions in the appropriate place in
this
thread. You're not reading and responding to the responses where they
have occurred..
I don't believe you did answer those questions,
especially not the all important las one.
.
--
p.a.
Almost all of the later belief in Celtic deities has them living in the
"hollow hills" passage mounds or tumuli of the surrounding areas. In
Irish myth the gods are said to have been allowed to continue live
underground after their defeat by the Sons of Mil. Donn is the Lord of
the Dead and one's spirit goes to Donn's House when one dies. From there
it may go to an Otherworldly Island or it could have a shadow existence.
Most of the beliefs were in a much happier Otherworldly life. Crom was a
deity to who sacrifices were made at Harvest time so that the seed
(symbolized by a maiden) could once again be fertile and free to bring
prosperity of crops to the land and the people. I don't know how one
could be more chthonic than that.
[/quote:d9b6b419c3]
But how does this Irish early medieval practice connect to the 'Druids'
metioned by classical roman sources for Gaul, or to sites/finds classified
as religious in areas thought to have been inhabited by Celts?
There is no uniform religious practice on the continent, that could be bound
to 'celticness' excluding others areas. There are only a few basic religious
practics that are spread through the entire Celtike, like inhumation burials
with burial goods. And even for those it is hard to find examples that are
known in all areas and all them time.
Was 'druidism' a sort of native celtic religion, a religious practice
developed by the Celts and spreading outwards, or a widespread phenomenon
like shamanism, that was also known and practiced by some Celts?
And what doe you mean by celtic, Celts etc.? A language, a biological group,
a political grouping, a style of decorations?
have fun
Uwe Mueller |
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| Eric Stevens |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:09 pm |
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On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:08:55 GMT, prd <X_header@address.net> wrote:
[quote:d4556be209]In sci.archaeology message news:45051f91$1$13688$dbd4b001@news.wanadoo.nl
by "Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> . . . :
prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote
prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" . . . :
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites,
votive deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and
images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
While technically you are correct, at 400 gods
of various geographic origins I would find
it hard to beleive that there was no
connection with the western celtic cultural
wave.
Doug keeps supporting this line but
almost everyone assumes there is a connection.
Try this: how do you recognize the existence
of Lutheran clergymen in the archaeological
records?
I know the reservation, its just its a bit
pedantic, given the evidence for overlapping.
The only problem is that no-one is perfectly
clear on what druidism is.
Yes, that is the whole point, and therefore you can't say,
as Searles did, that ritual sites, votive deposits, cauldrons,
lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images of deities/spirits
are signs of druidism.
With 400 gods in their pantheon, and a 'cultic'
find in an area were druids practiced, if not
identified with some other belief, chances are
it was druidism.
What other religions (other then roman polytheism
and christianity) of the pre medieval period were
practiced in NW europe that might be associated
with the megaliths or other cultic phenomena.
The celts had religious believes, no-one in their
right mind would argue they were atheist. Since
they had a religion somehow that religion
should be knowable and identifyable.
Now that's a pretty wooly bit of thinking![/quote:d4556be209]
They had lotsa gods, they weren't athiest, they had megaliths,
megaliths gotta mean cults. We have to be able to fit druids in there
somewhere as well ...
It seems to be a grab bag of things you don't quite understand.
Would you like a pyramid with an eye?
Eric Stevens |
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| prd |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:36 pm |
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Guest
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In sci.archaeology message news:mpjbg2pp3c3bn3p1alnen3ujbc1mls1r29@4ax.com
by Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> . . . :
[quote:17737dc0e8]Would you like a pyramid with an eye?
[/quote:17737dc0e8]
I got one or two in my wallet, but I will accept more
any time, many, many more. |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:04 pm |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:25 pm |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:41 pm |
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prd wrote:
[quote:363fed64a1]In sci.archaeology message news:1158018212.885642.316230
@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com by odubhain@comcast.net . . . :
[/quote:363fed64a1]
<snip>
[quote:363fed64a1]
OK, Here is the magic question.
Explain the Ulster Cycle and why it was so politically important
to pre christian Ireland, then explain the role of druidism played
into the Ulster Cycle.
[/quote:363fed64a1]
Ni hansa,
Battle from the North.
The Wheel Ogham of Roigni Rocadach.
Táin Bó Cuailgne.
Cathbadh and Cú Chulainn.
[quote:363fed64a1]What is a "Cycle" and why are various epochs in early Ireland
called Cycles instead of stories or myths.
[/quote:363fed64a1]
A cycle has two wheels. In the case of Ireland, one of these spins
tuathail and tyhe other spins dessal. Ask Conn or Mug or discuss it
with Eremon and Eber.
[quote:363fed64a1]Provide reference literature in support of your belief.
[/quote:363fed64a1]
Auraicept na n-Éces
Lebor Gabála Érenn
Senchus Mór
Lebor Na Núachongbála
[quote:363fed64a1]If you can answer this question in a way that makes sense
more than say all the other vaque sources I might believe
your interpretation of the druids. (if for no other reason than
to piss Eric and Doug off, lol).
[/quote:363fed64a1]
Sorry. Wait for the rest of the books to be published if the ones
mentioned above don't clear up the vagueness for you.
Slán is beannacht,
Searles O'Dubhain |
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| prd |
| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:34 pm |
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Guest
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In sci.archaeology message news:1158108098.359612.223250
@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com by odubhain@comcast.net . . . :
[quote:ad42d80c02]
prd wrote:
In sci.archaeology message news:1158018212.885642.316230
@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com by odubhain@comcast.net . . . :
snip
OK, Here is the magic question.
Explain the Ulster Cycle and why it was so politically important
to pre christian Ireland, then explain the role of druidism played
into the Ulster Cycle.
Ni hansa,
Battle from the North.
The Wheel Ogham of Roigni Rocadach.
Táin Bó Cuailgne.
Cathbadh and Cú Chulainn.
[/quote:ad42d80c02]
Is this greek? Maybe Hebrew, how about Swahili. Tell me when I am
getting close.
[quote:ad42d80c02]What is a "Cycle" and why are various epochs in early Ireland
called Cycles instead of stories or myths.
A cycle has two wheels.
[/quote:ad42d80c02]
A bicycle does but a unicycle does not.
[quote:ad42d80c02]In the case of Ireland, one of these spins
tuathail and tyhe other spins dessal. Ask Conn or Mug or discuss it
with Eremon and Eber.
[/quote:ad42d80c02]
That makes all of no sense.
[quote:ad42d80c02]Provide reference literature in support of your belief.
Auraicept na n-Éces
Lebor Gabála Érenn
Senchus Mór
Lebor Na Núachongbála
If you can answer this question in a way that makes sense
more than say all the other vaque sources I might believe
your interpretation of the druids. (if for no other reason than
to piss Eric and Doug off, lol).
Sorry. Wait for the rest of the books to be published if the ones
mentioned above don't clear up the vagueness for you.
Slán is beannacht,[/quote:ad42d80c02] |
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| Peter Alaca |
| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:52 am |
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Guest
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prd wrote: news:kBKNg.32189$QM6.26819@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
[quote:67503e8b12]In sci.archaeology message news:1158113599.285618.219410
@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com by odubhain@comcast.net . . . :
Every one of my answers was a valid answer to your questions. You
wanted me to prove that I knew something about Druidism and I just
did in my answers.
I don't want you to prove it I want you to explain it
in a way that a non-gaelic speaker would understand.
[/quote:67503e8b12]
Do you mean e.g. the accessible way
you write about genetics?
[quote:67503e8b12][...]
[/quote:67503e8b12]
--
p.a. |
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