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Science Forum Index » Archaeology Forum » No ice-free corridor, but coastal route to NA
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| Erik Hammerstad |
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:10 pm |
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| Never anonymous Bud |
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:27 pm |
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While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', Erik Hammerstad
<egeha.is.all.you.need@start.no> scribbled:
Quote: http://www.geotimes.org/current/
There was no ice-free corridor for the first North American
immigrants, but a coastal route is definitely a possibility.
And if we somehow lower the sea level 300 feet,
we'd probably find LOTS of evidence of early travelers.
To reply by email, remove the XYZ.
Lumber Cartel (tinlc) #2063. Spam this account at your own risk.
This sig censored by the Office of Home and Land Insecurity.... |
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| Tedd Jacobs |
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:25 pm |
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"Never anonymous Bud" wrote...
Quote: While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', Erik Hammerstad
egeha.is.all.you.need@start.no> scribbled:
http://www.geotimes.org/current/
There was no ice-free corridor for the first North American
immigrants, but a coastal route is definitely a possibility.
And if we somehow lower the sea level 300 feet,
we'd probably find LOTS of evidence of early travelers.
how right you are. |
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| Inger E Johansson |
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:36 am |
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"Never anonymous Bud" <newskat@katxyzkave.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:v1bl205t7o31vb8d2vfusu0fhj524qlmbq@4ax.com...
Quote: While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', Erik Hammerstad
egeha.is.all.you.need@start.no> scribbled:
http://www.geotimes.org/current/
There was no ice-free corridor for the first North American
immigrants, but a coastal route is definitely a possibility.
And if we somehow lower the sea level 300 feet,
we'd probably find LOTS of evidence of early travelers.
Not from that period. 300 feet lower sea level aren't correct figures for
period after 7th century. Actually 300 feet lower sea level was correct for
early Bronze Age more than 3500 years ago. What you have to look at in the
ice-free corridor which actually existed for a short period isn't a fixed
waterlevel. (Erik H doesn't know what he is talking about.) The landrise in
western NA, in the middle and in the eastern NA never was the same. For the
western NA you in some areas will have to look above present waterline to
find the settlements of 7th-9th century. Compare with same situation along
the Norwegian coast mentioned in excavation report by Hagen and other.
Inger E |
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| Eric Stevens |
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:03 am |
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On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:36:48 GMT, "Inger E Johansson"
<inger_e.johansson@notelia.com> wrote:
Quote:
"Never anonymous Bud" <newskat@katxyzkave.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:v1bl205t7o31vb8d2vfusu0fhj524qlmbq@4ax.com...
While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', Erik Hammerstad
egeha.is.all.you.need@start.no> scribbled:
http://www.geotimes.org/current/
There was no ice-free corridor for the first North American
immigrants, but a coastal route is definitely a possibility.
And if we somehow lower the sea level 300 feet,
we'd probably find LOTS of evidence of early travelers.
Not from that period. 300 feet lower sea level aren't correct figures for
period after 7th century. Actually 300 feet lower sea level was correct for
early Bronze Age more than 3500 years ago. What you have to look at in the
ice-free corridor which actually existed for a short period isn't a fixed
waterlevel. (Erik H doesn't know what he is talking about.) The landrise in
western NA, in the middle and in the eastern NA never was the same. For the
western NA you in some areas will have to look above present waterline to
find the settlements of 7th-9th century. Compare with same situation along
the Norwegian coast mentioned in excavation report by Hagen and other.
I don't think they are discussing any part of the bronze age but at
least 10,000 to 12,000 years ago.
Eric Stevens |
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| Bobby D. Bryant |
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:01 am |
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On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:48:52 -0700, Tedd Jacobs wrote:
News is several years old.
Quote: And if we somehow lower the sea level 300 feet, we'd probably find LOTS
of evidence of early travelers.
how right you are.
I think some stuff has already been found along the coast.
I don't remember where I saw this. First guess would be a NOVA program,
second would be a SciAm article. Surely 2-3 years ago, maybe even longer.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas |
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| Nick Maclaren |
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:08 am |
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In article <OkyWb.311$vQ2.61214@news.uswest.net>,
Tedd Jacobs <Jacobs@mail.boisestate.edu> wrote:
Quote:
"Never anonymous Bud" wrote...
While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', Erik Hammerstad
egeha.is.all.you.need@start.no> scribbled:
http://www.geotimes.org/current/
There was no ice-free corridor for the first North American
immigrants, but a coastal route is definitely a possibility.
And if we somehow lower the sea level 300 feet,
we'd probably find LOTS of evidence of early travelers.
how right you are.
Well, maybe, but be careful jumping from "possibly" to "probably".
One of the aspects that I find most interesting about this problem
is what it says about the development of technology. Archaeology
tends to focus on stone tools and (later) pottery, because those
are what has been preserved, but is isn't at all clear whether they
were even major components of the contemporary technology.
The Inuit would have NO difficulty in migrating down that coast,
but it is hard to see how any population could without a fairly
advanced technology. And yet the common belief is that humans of
the relevant era didn't have one - certainly not up to the level of
the Inuit. But was this right?
Indeed, how advanced was the technology 100,000 years ago? Or even
1,000,000? And how much difference was there between human species?
A fascinating set of questions :-)
Regards,
Nick Maclaren. |
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| Inger E Johansson |
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:38 am |
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"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:o8gm201d8dpkoqlvli3heou0mr4o6arne9@4ax.com...
Quote: On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:36:48 GMT, "Inger E Johansson"
inger_e.johansson@notelia.com> wrote:
"Never anonymous Bud" <newskat@katxyzkave.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:v1bl205t7o31vb8d2vfusu0fhj524qlmbq@4ax.com...
While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', Erik Hammerstad
egeha.is.all.you.need@start.no> scribbled:
http://www.geotimes.org/current/
There was no ice-free corridor for the first North American
immigrants, but a coastal route is definitely a possibility.
And if we somehow lower the sea level 300 feet,
we'd probably find LOTS of evidence of early travelers.
Not from that period. 300 feet lower sea level aren't correct figures for
period after 7th century. Actually 300 feet lower sea level was correct
for
early Bronze Age more than 3500 years ago. What you have to look at in
the
ice-free corridor which actually existed for a short period isn't a fixed
waterlevel. (Erik H doesn't know what he is talking about.) The landrise
in
western NA, in the middle and in the eastern NA never was the same. For
the
western NA you in some areas will have to look above present waterline to
find the settlements of 7th-9th century. Compare with same situation
along
the Norwegian coast mentioned in excavation report by Hagen and other.
I don't think they are discussing any part of the bronze age but at
least 10,000 to 12,000 years ago.
You could be right of course but I did read a survey from eastern Alaska and
the Canadian islands closest to Alaska the other year indicating that the
landrise had been different there thus that the 300 ft would be more like
Bronze Age period. But I didn't look closer into the figures....
Inger E
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| Daryl Krupa |
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:54 pm |
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"Inger E Johansson" <inger_e.johansson@notelia.com> wrote in message news:<4aFWb.82409$dP1.218860@newsc.telia.net>...
<snip>
Quote: Actually 300 feet lower sea level was correct for
early Bronze Age more than 3500 years ago.
What you have to look at in the ice-free corridor which actually
existed for a short period isn't a fixed waterlevel.
(Erik H doesn't know what he is talking about.)
snip
(It's you who doesn't know what she's talking about.)
West coast sea level change south of the Queen Charlottes
(CLRC = "Columbia River littoral zone):
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/of01-076/HTMLDOCS/FIGURE3.HTM
Sea level 3500 years ago was about 5 metres (16 feet)
lower than at present, not 300 feet (90 metres) lower.
This is true for the south coast of North America and for
the east coast of North America, too.
Daryl Krupa |
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| Daryl Krupa |
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:08 pm |
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"Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.02.12.11.01.15.215188@mail.utexas.edu>...
<snip>
Quote: I think some stuff has already been found along the coast.
I don't remember where I saw this. First guess would be a NOVA program,
second would be a SciAm article. Surely 2-3 years ago, maybe even longer.
A point was found on a drowned river mouth off the Queen Charlotes
that was seashore about 12,000 years ago, in 1997,
by Daryl Fedje's team:
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF15/1579.html
Other material, on land, has been dated to about 10,000 years ago.
I agree, this is old news.
Daryl Krupa |
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| Never anonymous Bud |
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:58 pm |
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While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', icycalmca@yahoo.com (Daryl Krupa)
scribbled:
Quote: Sea level 3500 years ago was about 5 metres (16 feet)
lower than at present, not 300 feet (90 metres) lower.
This is true for the south coast of North America and for
the east coast of North America, too.
Kennewick Man didn't arrive 3500 years ago.
To reply by email, remove the XYZ.
Lumber Cartel (tinlc) #2063. Spam this account at your own risk.
This sig censored by the Office of Home and Land Insecurity.... |
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| Tedd Jacobs |
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:21 pm |
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"Nick Maclaren" wrote...
Quote: Tedd Jacobs wrote:
"Never anonymous Bud" wrote...
While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', Erik Hammerstad
egeha.is.all.you.need@start.no> scribbled:
http://www.geotimes.org/current/
There was no ice-free corridor for the first North American
immigrants, but a coastal route is definitely a possibility.
And if we somehow lower the sea level 300 feet,
we'd probably find LOTS of evidence of early travelers.
how right you are.
Well, maybe, but be careful jumping from "possibly" to "probably".
*ouch* that hurt... tripping over words can generally lead to one falling flat
on their face. lets just say it was an undergraduate moment of toe stubbing
then. ;-)
--
i don't want to be an A(nthro)pologist, i don't have an armchair. |
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| George |
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:38 pm |
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nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote in message news:<c0fmqi$le$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>...
Quote: In article <OkyWb.311$vQ2.61214@news.uswest.net>,
Tedd Jacobs <Jacobs@mail.boisestate.edu> wrote:
"Never anonymous Bud" wrote...
While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', Erik Hammerstad
egeha.is.all.you.need@start.no> scribbled:
http://www.geotimes.org/current/
There was no ice-free corridor for the first North American
immigrants, but a coastal route is definitely a possibility.
And if we somehow lower the sea level 300 feet,
we'd probably find LOTS of evidence of early travelers.
how right you are.
Well, maybe, but be careful jumping from "possibly" to "probably".
One of the aspects that I find most interesting about this problem
is what it says about the development of technology. Archaeology
tends to focus on stone tools and (later) pottery, because those
are what has been preserved, but is isn't at all clear whether they
were even major components of the contemporary technology.
Don't forget fire hearths and camp sites. There are some new and
exciting digs being reported on.
Quote: The Inuit would have NO difficulty in migrating down that coast,
but it is hard to see how any population could without a fairly
advanced technology. And yet the common belief is that humans of
the relevant era didn't have one - certainly not up to the level of
the Inuit. But was this right?
Cause 1)They (the Inuit) would have been following their food sources
and, at some stage when the food source becomes scarce, would have
forced them to move onto new hunting grounds.
Cause 2) Population pressures would force the existing populations
into new areas
Quote: Indeed, how advanced was the technology 100,000 years ago? Or even
1,000,000? And how much difference was there between human species?
A fascinating set of questions :-)
In The area there is no possibility of 100,000 years ! The 'oldest'
finds of Homo Sapiens should be of some interest to you as to the
possible date of Sapiens in the area.....
40,000 ybp Modern humans (Homo Sapien Sapien) reached southern Siberia
My point of amusement is that people (in the high Arctic) are quite
used to travelling over ice to hunt.
And all their weapons were the result of a long and tested
tradition... if it didn't work people died.. |
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| Inger E Johansson |
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:43 pm |
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"Never anonymous Bud" <newskat@katxyzkave.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:n5jn209akuo8un7opf1v1ka90nhogec6as@4ax.com...
Quote: While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', icycalmca@yahoo.com (Daryl
Krupa)
scribbled:
Sea level 3500 years ago was about 5 metres (16 feet)
lower than at present, not 300 feet (90 metres) lower.
This is true for the south coast of North America and for
the east coast of North America, too.
Kennewick Man didn't arrive 3500 years ago.
Nor was the waterlevel 5 meters lower 3500 years ago!
Correct figure for the last 8-900 years observe for the last eight- to
ninehundred years is 8 meters - 12,5 meters waterlevel rise!!! Then we
haven't taken into consideration the different figures for landrise which
can vary more than 1 meter/100 years between two areas less then 10 miles
from each other.
I wonder where Daryl has got the figures for 3500 years ago from, such
assumptions aren't correct at all.
Inger E
Quote:
To reply by email, remove the XYZ.
Lumber Cartel (tinlc) #2063. Spam this account at your own risk.
This sig censored by the Office of Home and Land Insecurity.... |
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| Nick Maclaren |
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:58 pm |
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In article <9b937279.0402121138.305cb2a3@posting.google.com>,
George <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:
Quote:
Don't forget fire hearths and camp sites. There are some new and
exciting digs being reported on.
A fair comment. Fire is a technology, too, though the problem is
telling what it was used FOR.
Quote: Cause 1)They (the Inuit) would have been following their food sources
and, at some stage when the food source becomes scarce, would have
forced them to move onto new hunting grounds.
Cause 2) Population pressures would force the existing populations
into new areas
Perhaps I wasn't making myself clear. I was referring to their ABILITY
to migrate down an ice-covered coast, and comparing them with less
technological groups, that would have had major difficulty in doing so.
In particular, were the inhabitants of eastern Siberia 30,000 years
ago as advanced as the Inuit? If so, the colonisation of the
Americas becomes a trivial matter, but it indicates a MUCH older
origin for technology than most authorities believe. If they were
very primitive hunter-gatherers, then how on earth did they do it?
Don't ask me for the answer :-)
Quote: In The area there is no possibility of 100,000 years ! The 'oldest'
finds of Homo Sapiens should be of some interest to you as to the
possible date of Sapiens in the area.....
40,000 ybp Modern humans (Homo Sapien Sapien) reached southern Siberia
Oh, I wasn't thinking in just that area! It was the general point
that the lack of a fossil record of technology proves very little
about the level of technology.
Quote: My point of amusement is that people (in the high Arctic) are quite
used to travelling over ice to hunt.
And all their weapons were the result of a long and tested
tradition... if it didn't work people died..
Yes, indeed. A while back, I was vigorously opposed (not flamed)
for saying that the Inuit were a technological society. I stand by
that It isn't just the weapons, but the clothing and (most
of all) the boats. Inuit designs are used today for racing kayaks
made out of synthetic materials. That ain't low tech. :-)
Regards,
Nick Maclaren. |
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