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| Bob |
 Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:20 am |
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On 25 Jul 2006 16:35:08 -0700, "stevemur" <stevemur@cyberspace.org>
wrote:
[quote:55911e3a11]It has a clear meaning. People are jewish when they say they are.
I think Bob's point is good.
[/quote:55911e3a11]
Unfortunately there are two completely different meanings for the term
"Jew"
From Websters Online:
Jew:
1 a : a member of the tribe of Judah b : ISRAELITE
2 : a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the sixth century
B.C. to the first century A.D.
3 : a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion
of the ancient Jewish people
4 : one whose religion is Judaism
The first two definitions are genetic. The third is mixed and the
fourth is religious.
I always take the primary definition if warranted by the context. In
the context of this discussion - what makes a person a Jew - the
answer is the first, second and first part of the third definitions
above. They are the primary meanings of the term "Jewish".
I have never run into a situation where some was called Jewish solely
because his religion was Judaism.
--
Stop Repeat Offenders!
Don't Re-elect Them! |
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| Bob |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:21 am |
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On 25 Jul 2006 17:38:09 -0700, "CyrilGrey" <andrew.anissi@gmail.com>
wrote:
[quote:a366dbb985]Bob wrote:
I am Jewish.
I can start telling people I'm black, but I still can't dance.
[/quote:a366dbb985]
I bet you can't jump either.
--
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| Bob |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:23 am |
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On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 03:56:51 GMT, flaviaR@verizon.net wrote:
[quote:77fdb8f649]Being Jewish is a state of spiritual being.
[/quote:77fdb8f649]
So is being Black. But you still can't jump worth a crap.
--
Stop Repeat Offenders!
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| Bob |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:25 am |
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On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 03:06:35 -0400, David <thedavid@shell.rawbw.com>
wrote:
[quote:c7c8d056ca]Why don't you consult a Rabbi? - he will undoubtedly confirm that only
blood lineage makes a person Jewish.
Actually, no doubt a rabbi will tell you that conversion makes one Jewish.
[/quote:c7c8d056ca]
You are full of it.
[quote:c7c8d056ca]Now to get back to the subject of this thread, i.e. that Israel must be
stopped. It is a shonda on the whole world that all those Arab countries
have not yet bulldozed Tel Aviv halfway to Cyprus.
[/quote:c7c8d056ca]
And this proves it.
--
Stop Repeat Offenders!
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| J Thomas |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:49 am |
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flaviaR@verizon.net wrote:
[quote:9ebaa4399d]On 25-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually I may be Jewish and not know it.
No, you can't be jewish and not know it. If you don't say you're
jewish, you aren't.
This is not true.
Judaism has rules for who is/not a Jew,and "self awareness"
is not one of them.
[/quote:9ebaa4399d]
Some jews have rules for who is/not a jew. They use those rules to tell
other people that those other people are not jewish. This is not
legitimate, but they can sometimes get away with it.
[quote:9ebaa4399d]Being Jewish is a state of spiritual being.
[/quote:9ebaa4399d]
If a man's mother claimed to be jewish, and he was raised in a jewish
culture, and he decided that he was a christian and a buddhist and a
communist and not a follower of judaism at all, would he be jewish?
Some jews say he would be. But he says he isn't. Who's right? He is.
On the other hand, if he never attends services or do anything to be
jewish except occasionally point to his genealogy and eat bagels and
say words like schlemiel, but he says he's jewish, practically
everybody agrees that he's jewish.
So being jewish is not exactly a state of spiritual being. It *can*
involve an exquisitely refined state of spiritual being for those
who're open to that. But it doesn't have to.
[quote:9ebaa4399d]I appreciate your point of view, and the generosity of spirit
behind it, but you are simply not fully correct.
[/quote:9ebaa4399d]
Let's agree to disagree about this. Just as there are french scholars
who want to take custody of the french language and decide which words
are french and which aren't, there are people who want costudy of
jewishness, who claim authority to say who's jewish and who isn't.
Those people have authority in your eyes but not in mine or in reality.
It might do violence to your religious beliefs to see this, and there's
no need for it. Believe as you wish. |
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| J Thomas |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:24 am |
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Pinky & Perky sing sad songs for the Lebanon wrote:
[quote:3619b5b44a]If someone said they were the queen of Albania all that would matter would
be the legitimacy of her clam.
[/quote:3619b5b44a]
And what determines legitimacy? An army that backs the claim. William
the Bastard got england because his army beat Harold's. No army, no
king. If the public overwhelmingly recognises your royalty then you can
do without the army except in emergencies. But as Solomon proved when
he became king of israel, a disciplined army beats public approval when
it comes down to winning. The militias came down for the other guy but
the palace guard was Solomon's.
[quote:3619b5b44a]She could be an impoverished queen, but still have the royal bloodline, in
which case she would be the rightful queen, irrespective of whether the
Albanians rcognised her or not.
[/quote:3619b5b44a]
You're claiming that some people are genetically royal. But as far as
anybody knows there isn't a gene for kingship. If there is, no doubt a
lot of people have it who aren't kings or queens. You're talking like
there's a reality to royalty. But it's only something that people made
up, that they agree to when they agree. If the albanians don't want a
queen then they won't have one -- unless she has an army that will give
them a queen whether they want her or not. It's the army that gives the
idea teeth.
[quote:3619b5b44a]Similarly, she could be richer than Bill Gates, but be descended from a line
of wandering tinkers - in which case she would not be, nor could ever be,
the legitimate queen, no matter that the Albanians carried her shoulder high
into her palace.
[/quote:3619b5b44a]
No! If the albanians say she's their queen, then she is! They get to
decide who's their queen, not you. If she had no royal blood before,
then that makes her the first of the line. Every royal family had a
first royal member. They started out as hill bandits who got loyal
followers. When they had enough of them, what they took from the
peasants got called taxes instead of banditry. The noble blood was
assumed later.
[quote:3619b5b44a]And so it is with Jewry - a Jew by blood could spend a lifetime hating and
persecuting other Jews, but could never be anything other than a Jew,
himself (albeit a bad Jew), whereas a Gentile who kept every Jewish law,
observed every Jewish ritual, and was welcomed and accepted by every Jew on
the planet could never be a Jew - not even if they lived for 500 years.
[/quote:3619b5b44a]
It's OK for you to think it's that way. We all have our little foibles.
But that isn't how it works.
[quote:3619b5b44a]You either is, or you ain't
[/quote:3619b5b44a]
You either are, or aren't, a Gostak.
You either are or aren't a liberal.
You either are or aren't irish.
You don't know whether or not you're a Gostak because I haven't told
you how to find out.
You're a liberal if Rush Limbaugh says you are. At least that's what
Rush and a whole lot of dittoheads say. I say you're a liberal if you
say you are.
You're irish if you officially have irish citizenship. But a whole lot
of people in Boston disagree. Are they right? Sort of.
A lot of people agree with you that either you're jewish or you aren't.
But they very much disagree about exactly who's jewish and who isn't.
Some of them say that more than 60% of the jews in this country, and a
majority of the jews in israel aren't jewish. So I think the issue
isn't as tidy as you appear to think it is. |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:31 am |
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On 26-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:4ee0795020]flaviaR@verizon.net wrote:
On 25-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually I may be Jewish and not know it.
No, you can't be jewish and not know it. If you don't say you're
jewish, you aren't.
This is not true.
Judaism has rules for who is/not a Jew,and "self awareness"
is not one of them.
Some jews have rules for who is/not a jew.
[/quote:4ee0795020]
Judaism itself has rules.
They are not subject to individual interpretation.
[quote:4ee0795020]They use those rules to tell
other people that those other people are not jewish. This is not
legitimate, but they can sometimes get away with it.
[/quote:4ee0795020]
Oh, youmean that some people do this and for this reason.
Well, that's not a common phenomenon.
[quote:4ee0795020]
Being Jewish is a state of spiritual being.
If a man's mother claimed to be jewish,
[/quote:4ee0795020]
The only question here is *is* she Jewish.
Not just "claiming to be."
[quote:4ee0795020]and he was raised in a jewish
culture, and he decided that he was a christian and a buddhist and a
communist and not a follower of judaism at all, would he be jewish?
Some jews say he would be.
[/quote:4ee0795020]
I can;t imagine who, if his mother was not jewish in the first place.
But, in any case, Judaism is not a pluaraily democracy.
[quote:4ee0795020]But he says he isn't. Who's right? He is.
No, he is not right.[/quote:4ee0795020]
He can believe whatever he wants, but it doesn;t automatically make him
right.
[quote:4ee0795020]On the other hand, if he never attends services or do anything to be
jewish except occasionally point to his genealogy and eat bagels and
say words like schlemiel, but he says he's jewish, practically
everybody agrees that he's jewish.
Which is pretty sad.[/quote:4ee0795020]
[quote:4ee0795020]So being jewish is not exactly a state of spiritual being.
[/quote:4ee0795020]
You are confusing what people want to believe with the truth.
[quote:4ee0795020]It *can*
involve an exquisitely refined state of spiritual being
[/quote:4ee0795020]
Which is not the same as what I said.
[quote:4ee0795020]for those
who're open to that. But it doesn't have to.
No, it doesn't have to - but the truth is that Judaism decides[/quote:4ee0795020]
who is/not Jewish, not "anyone who feels like it."
[quote:4ee0795020]I appreciate your point of view, and the generosity of spirit
behind it, but you are simply not fully correct.
Let's agree to disagree about this.
[/quote:4ee0795020]
No, I can't do that.
What you are saying is the exact same thing as saying
"Those who want to think they are American citizens are
American citizens."
And you would never say that, bcause you know better.
[quote:4ee0795020]Just as there are french scholars
who want to take custody of the french language and decide which words
are french and which aren't, there are people who want costudy of
jewishness, who claim authority to say who's jewish and who isn't.
[/quote:4ee0795020]
The only people who do this are trained rabbis, people who are
actually qualified to do this.
[quote:4ee0795020]Those people have authority in your eyes but not in mine or in reality.
[/quote:4ee0795020]
You are incorrect. They do have the authority.
Just because you or others don't recognize it doesn't make it so.
[quote:4ee0795020]It might do violence to your religious beliefs to see this,
[/quote:4ee0795020]
Not at all.
[quote:4ee0795020]and there's
no need for it. Believe as you wish.
[/quote:4ee0795020]
It has nothing to do with me or what I want or don't want.
Susan |
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| J Thomas |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:24 am |
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stevemur wrote:
[quote:6378b7fef0]J Thomas wrote:
Bob wrote:
If you adopt that posture then the term "jewish" has no clear meaning.
It has a clear meaning. People are jewish when they say they are.
In general terms, how can you define a group that anyone can join at
whim? Isn't the whole essence of any group that some people are
members and some aren't? And if there is no definition -- if the name
of the group doesn't refer to anything at all -- then why would anyone
choose to join or not join? It would effectively not exist.
[/quote:6378b7fef0]
Is being jewish a group? Christianity is obviously as I say judaism is.
Anyone can become a christian by saying they are. Some christians say
all it takes is you say one time "I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and
savior" and you're christian for the rest of your life. But some
christians say you aren't really a christian unless you join the
catholic church and no other. Does christianity exist?
[quote:6378b7fef0]I think of human groups like sets in mathematics, only a lot messier.
The only purpose of defining a set is so that you know which things are
in it and which things aren't.
[/quote:6378b7fef0]
Try that approach. You're about to meet somebody, and all you know is
they're jewish. What do you know about them from that? What that tells
you is what jewishness defines.
Now imagine you're about to meet somebody and all you know is they say
they're jewish. I claim that you know more about somebody when you know
they claim themselves that they're jewish, than you do from a
sourceless claim that they're jewish.
It tells you more.
[quote:6378b7fef0]Then again, that's why I have so much trouble understanding these new
social movements that talk about "What do you identify as?"
[/quote:6378b7fef0]
When it's a group there are two sides to it. There's how much you
approve of the group and there's how much the group approves of you. If
you say you're catholic people can ask you, what parish. And they can
ask the parish priest what he thinks of you. Catholics are a group. But
if you say you're christian that doesn't tell anybody who to ask
whether christians approve of you.
Similarly, if you're an irish citizen the irish government will vouch
for you or not. But if you wear a shamrock labeled "Kiss me, I'm Irish"
on Saint Patrick's day and you contribute money to the IRA, that's kind
of being irish but it doesn't tell people who will vouch for you.
(Unless it's the IRA.)
[quote:6378b7fef0]Can
you give me a clearer meaning than that, that doesn't disenfranchise
the majority of people who think they're jewish? Certainly not the one
that says there's no conversion. And not the one that says they have to
practice some kind of judaism. This is the clearest meaning.
But maybe you're just saying, "To me, judeasm doesn't exist?"
[/quote:6378b7fef0]
Of course it exists. It's an idea in a whole lot of human minds. A
whole lot of people think they're jewish, and that belief affects them
in varying ways. That makes it real.
[quote:6378b7fef0]It's become a euphemism for "anybody".
No, it doesn't. The large majority of people in the world don't say
they're jewish. There's even a small minority of people who'd be proud
not to be jewish.
They're not using the same definition you are, though. For example,
when I say that I'm not Jewish I mean something like "The history of
the Jewish people doesn't apply to me." I know that's problematic in a
lot of ways, but that's how I think of it.
[/quote:6378b7fef0]
Yes, it's an idea in your mind and your choice affects you.
[quote:6378b7fef0]I can't imagine anyone saying "I'm not Jewish," and meaning only "I'm
not one of those people who says `I am Jewish.'"
[/quote:6378b7fef0]
They don't think that way. It's just what they do without noticing. |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:36 am |
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On 26-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:0adfa0fb0f]And so it is with Jewry - a Jew by blood could spend a lifetime hating
and
persecuting other Jews, but could never be anything other than a Jew,
himself (albeit a bad Jew), whereas a Gentile who kept every Jewish law,
observed every Jewish ritual, and was welcomed and accepted by every Jew
on
the planet could never be a Jew - not even if they lived for 500 years.
It's OK for you to think it's that way. We all have our little foibles.
But that isn't how it works.
[/quote:0adfa0fb0f]
"Keeping every law" would mean, of course, converting, which would
make said person a Jew.
He's been told this before.
He refuses to accept it, because it disproves his racist beliefs.
Susan |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:48 pm |
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On 26-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:6ff797cc2d]stevemur wrote:
J Thomas wrote:
Bob wrote:
If you adopt that posture then the term "jewish" has no clear
meaning.
It has a clear meaning. People are jewish when they say they are.
In general terms, how can you define a group that anyone can join at
whim? Isn't the whole essence of any group that some people are
members and some aren't? And if there is no definition -- if the name
of the group doesn't refer to anything at all -- then why would anyone
choose to join or not join? It would effectively not exist.
Is being jewish a group? Christianity is obviously as I say judaism is.
Anyone can become a christian by saying they are. Some christians say
all it takes is you say one time "I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and
savior" and you're christian for the rest of your life.
[/quote:6ff797cc2d]
Until you decide differently.
This is what makes Xianity strictly a religion, and Judaism more than that.
[quote:6ff797cc2d]But some
christians say you aren't really a christian unless you join the
catholic church and no other.
[/quote:6ff797cc2d]
And this makes them catholics, and those who believe/behave like them
Catholics.
[quote:6ff797cc2d]Does christianity exist?
Of course.
I think of human groups like sets in mathematics, only a lot messier.
The only purpose of defining a set is so that you know which things are
in it and which things aren't.
Try that approach. You're about to meet somebody, and all you know is
they're jewish. What do you know about them from that? What that tells
you is what jewishness defines.
Of course that's not so![/quote:6ff797cc2d]
All that tells you is what YOU know, or even think you know, about Judaism.
[quote:6ff797cc2d]Now imagine you're about to meet somebody and all you know is they say
they're jewish. I claim that you know more about somebody when you know
they claim themselves that they're jewish, than you do from a
sourceless claim that they're jewish.
Um... what?
It tells you more.
It certainly tells you that this person identifies as Jewish.[/quote:6ff797cc2d]
[quote:6ff797cc2d]Then again, that's why I have so much trouble understanding these new
social movements that talk about "What do you identify as?"
When it's a group there are two sides to it. There's how much you
approve of the group and there's how much the group approves of you. If
you say you're catholic people can ask you, what parish. And they can
ask the parish priest what he thinks of you. Catholics are a group. But
if you say you're christian that doesn't tell anybody who to ask
whether christians approve of you.
Similarly, if you're an irish citizen the irish government will vouch
for you or not. But if you wear a shamrock labeled "Kiss me, I'm Irish"
on Saint Patrick's day and you contribute money to the IRA, that's kind
of being irish but it doesn't tell people who will vouch for you.
(Unless it's the IRA.)
[/quote:6ff797cc2d]
It also depends on what you mean by saying "I'm irish."
There's the "I'm from Ireland, am a citizen & speak the language ."
Then there's (like a LOT of Americans), "I'm of Irish DESCENT."
Susan
[quote:6ff797cc2d]
Can
you give me a clearer meaning than that, that doesn't disenfranchise
the majority of people who think they're jewish? Certainly not the one
that says there's no conversion. And not the one that says they have
to practice some kind of judaism. This is the clearest meaning.
But maybe you're just saying, "To me, judeasm doesn't exist?"
Of course it exists. It's an idea in a whole lot of human minds. A
whole lot of people think they're jewish, and that belief affects them[/quote:6ff797cc2d] |
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| J Thomas |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:09 pm |
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flaviaR@verizon.net wrote:
[quote:f9d05f255d]On 26-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
stevemur wrote:
I think of human groups like sets in mathematics, only a lot messier.
The only purpose of defining a set is so that you know which things are
in it and which things aren't.
Try that approach. You're about to meet somebody, and all you know is
they're jewish. What do you know about them from that? What that tells
you is what jewishness defines.
Of course that's not so!
All that tells you is what YOU know, or even think you know, about Judaism.
[/quote:f9d05f255d]
Of course. It says what jewishness defines for you. For someone else it
might mean something else. And what meaning is there in it, beyond what
some person thinks? It might somehow be the sum total of what people
believe about it, except that we have no way to total up that sum.
However, most of what one might decide about someone based on hearing
they're jewish, is wrong. One person might think they must be an
upstanding honorable person since they think that's true of most jews.
Another might think that they're clannish and look out only for other
jews while trying to cheat any outsiders -- since that's what those
people think. Can you expect someone who's jewish to look semitic? Can
you expect him to know hebrew? Can you expect him to be a zionist? Most
of these stereotypes are not particularly good bets -- maybe some of
them might be 2:1 odds while some are just false.
There's no more meaning to judaism as a whole than the stereotypes
people have about it. What more meaning could there be? By itself the
claim of being jewish is so diffuse as to have very little meaning --
except that some people do attach a lot of significance to it.
[quote:f9d05f255d]Then again, that's why I have so much trouble understanding these new
social movements that talk about "What do you identify as?"
Similarly, if you're an irish citizen the irish government will vouch
for you or not. But if you wear a shamrock labeled "Kiss me, I'm Irish"
on Saint Patrick's day and you contribute money to the IRA, that's kind
of being irish but it doesn't tell people who will vouch for you.
(Unless it's the IRA.)
It also depends on what you mean by saying "I'm irish."
There's the "I'm from Ireland, am a citizen & speak the language ."
Then there's (like a LOT of Americans), "I'm of Irish DESCENT."
[/quote:f9d05f255d]
Sure, and begorrah but there are also those who think that being of
jewish descent makes someone jewish. And it's god's own truth you don't
stop being irish just from living in the USA for a few generations. |
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| J Thomas |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:11 pm |
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flaviaR@verizon.net wrote:
[quote:8c3c8db61b]On 26-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
stevemur wrote:
I think of human groups like sets in mathematics, only a lot messier.
The only purpose of defining a set is so that you know which things are
in it and which things aren't.
Try that approach. You're about to meet somebody, and all you know is
they're jewish. What do you know about them from that? What that tells
you is what jewishness defines.
Of course that's not so!
All that tells you is what YOU know, or even think you know, about Judaism.
[/quote:8c3c8db61b]
Of course. It says what jewishness defines for you. For someone else it
might mean something else. And what meaning is there in it, beyond what
some person thinks? It might somehow be the sum total of what people
believe about it, except that we have no way to total up that sum.
However, most of what one might decide about someone based on hearing
they're jewish, is wrong. One person might think they must be an
upstanding honorable person since they think that's true of most jews.
Another might think that they're clannish and look out only for other
jews while trying to cheat any outsiders -- since that's what those
people think. Can you expect someone who's jewish to look semitic? Can
you expect him to know hebrew? Can you expect him to be a zionist? Most
of these stereotypes are not particularly good bets -- maybe some of
them might be 2:1 odds while some are just false.
There's no more meaning to judaism as a whole than the stereotypes
people have about it. What more meaning could there be? By itself the
claim of being jewish is so diffuse as to have very little meaning --
except that some people do attach a lot of significance to it.
[quote:8c3c8db61b]Then again, that's why I have so much trouble understanding these new
social movements that talk about "What do you identify as?"
Similarly, if you're an irish citizen the irish government will vouch
for you or not. But if you wear a shamrock labeled "Kiss me, I'm Irish"
on Saint Patrick's day and you contribute money to the IRA, that's kind
of being irish but it doesn't tell people who will vouch for you.
(Unless it's the IRA.)
It also depends on what you mean by saying "I'm irish."
There's the "I'm from Ireland, am a citizen & speak the language ."
Then there's (like a LOT of Americans), "I'm of Irish DESCENT."
[/quote:8c3c8db61b]
Sure, and begorrah but there are also those who think that being of
jewish descent makes someone jewish. And it's god's own truth you don't
stop being irish just from living in the USA for a few generations. |
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| bob |
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:43 pm |
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On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 12:20:46 GMT, spam@uce.gov (Bob) wrote:
[quote:29f7baaab4]On 25 Jul 2006 16:35:08 -0700, "stevemur" <stevemur@cyberspace.org
wrote:
It has a clear meaning. People are jewish when they say they are.
I think Bob's point is good.
Unfortunately there are two completely different meanings for the term
"Jew"
From Websters Online:
Jew:
1 a : a member of the tribe of Judah b : ISRAELITE
2 : a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the sixth century
B.C. to the first century A.D.
3 : a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion
of the ancient Jewish people
4 : one whose religion is Judaism
I am a direct descendant of Homo Erectus. Does that excite you?[/quote:29f7baaab4] |
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| J Thomas |
| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:59 am |
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flaviaR@verizon.net wrote:
[quote:7947d0e602]On 26-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
flaviaR@verizon.net wrote:
On 26-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
Try that approach. You're about to meet somebody, and all you know is
they're jewish. What do you know about them from that? What that tells
you is what jewishness defines.
Of course that's not so!
All that tells you is what YOU know, or even think you know, about
Judaism.
Of course. It says what jewishness defines for you. For someone else it
might mean something else.
But that's of no consequence; that doesn;t makle others right.
[/quote:7947d0e602]
I think that you and I have an unbridgeable gap, something that as
civilised people with a sense of tolerance we can only smile and shrug
and agree to disagree on. I can't hope to convince you, and as a
civilised person with a sense of tolerance it isn't necessary that I
try -- we can live peacefully in the same world without agreeing.
Still I will try to explain my way of thinking at some length in the
hope that you might understand it without agreeing.
First, here's a quick story. Once upon a time I was driving in San
Francisco with an angstress -- somebody who posted on alt.angst. She
and her boyfriend had had dinner with me and my sister, and now we were
going to the University of Berkeley to look at their medical library;
we had differing but somewhat parallel interests in biology. We talked
about my sister. Before my sister got married and moved to Berkeley,
she had been living in SF and keeping up with fashions and such, she
drove a motorcycle and made a living delivering Mrs. Fields cookies
with singing telegrams and she sang with the SF Opera. "Wow, it sure
was a big step down for her to go to Berkeley. San Francisco is so much
cooler." "No, she was ready to raise a family." "But she gave up so
much just for that. Berkeley is not cool." We discussed how it is that
different people think that different things are cool. Some people like
country/western, other people like heavy metal. Some think that Jimi
Hendrix is the height of cool while others think it's Kurt Cobain. We
agreed that there was a lot of disagreement about what was really cool.
And then she said, with a completely straight face, "But only one of
them can be right, right? Only one of them can be truly cool. I mean,
the people in San Francisco are the ones who're really cool and the
others are wrong, aren't they?"
She said it so perfectly. She gave absolutely no indication she was
joking. I was so surprised I nearly drove off the Bay Bridge. (Not
really, they had concrete blocks set up to make sure that people who
drove off the bridge actually just blocked traffic for a few hours
instead.) She'd seemed so sophisticated! But I don't know to this day
whether she really believes that. She might actually believe that
there's such a thing as true coolness in reality, and not just a bunch
of people pretending.
In just the same way, to the majority of the select, what it means to
be jewish is a lot like what it means to be cool. You know it when you
see it. A lot of disagreement about the details, but some things are
plain. Look at a hasidic jew with earlocks and wearing black and all,
and you know he's jewish. Look at Mick Jagger with his hair scraggly
and wearing black and you know he's cool.
I look at it from the outside, and to me it's something that people
choose to care about. It's something without a lot of physical reality,
something that's important *because* people choose to make it important
and for no other reason.
And the meanings that really stick are the ones that somebody strong
cares to enforce. People still talk about who Hitler thought was
jewish. It's because if Hitler thought you were jewish he'd send you to
a concentration camp to be worked to death. For a little while Hitler's
opinion *mattered*. He couldn't make it last, but somehow in the
popular imagination he became an authority on who's jewish. On the
other side of it, if the israeli government thinks you're jewish and
they hear you're in trouble anywhere in the middle east they might send
airstrikes and commando forces to rescue you. Their opinion counts too.
When people are willing to kill for their definition, they validate the
definition with blood.
And then there are organised religions. If an organised religion
disapproves of you then all its members are ordered to disapprove too.
See, if I thought I was cool and so I dressed up in sequinned tights
and a spangly leather jacket and fixed my hair up like Elvis and tried
to arrange to play at a concert just before the Spice Girls or
something, a bunch of the audience would laugh and jeer at me because
I'm not cool. But some of them might disagree, some of them might like
me. I could take solace that musical tastes are evolving and my time is
not quite yet. But if there was some authority to say who's cool and a
whole lot of people agreed to go along with them in their rulings, then
at a concert in front of those people nobody would approve. It would be
unanimous. That can be very difficult particularly if I'm one of them.
Organised religions get a lot of social control over their followers.
So who's really jewish? There's the opinion of the israeli government,
backed up by the israeli military. There's the opinion of the Orthodox
hierarchy, backed up by the obedience of their followers. And there's
jewish public opinion, backed up by whatever it is that makes people
cool. I say there's no particular truth to any of it, it's a giant
collection of personal choices.
[quote:7947d0e602]There's no more meaning to judaism as a whole than the stereotypes
people have about it. What more meaning could there be? By itself the
claim of being jewish is so diffuse as to have very little meaning --
except that some people do attach a lot of significance to it.
I think you & I are discussing slightly different things.
I agree with you about how people think/feel, etc.
Sure, and begorrah but there are also those who think that being of
jewish descent makes someone jewish.
And sometimes, they are right, sometimes they are wrong.
[/quote:7947d0e602]
See, you've pointed out the fundamental difference here. In my world
there's no fundamental right or wrong about this judgement, it's just
what people choose to believe. In your world there's an agreement with
God, and the chosen people keep the agreement or break it, and God
keeps it for those who also keep it but not for those He didn't make
the agreement with. I don't see compelling external validation for that
belief, because I'm looking at it from the outside. You don't need
external validation -- you accept it because of who you are.
It would be silly for me to try to get you to renounce your faith. I
have no particular reason to think you'd be better off. It isn't clear
that I'd be better off. And for all I know you may be right. External
validation is a tricky business, try to decide what's true that way and
you can easily go wrong, and I don't see much evidence on this one in
either direction.
Similarly, your religion doesn't proselytise much, so why would you
need to convince me you're right?
When I think about it, I think maybe it comes from language. It's like,
without language, you can watch somebody make an arrowhead or whatever
and try it yourself, you can wordlessly judge how well you're doing and
guess at how to do better. And whatever thinking you go through, it's
all got to be done again by the next person who wants to learn that
skill. But with language we can somehow share some of our thoughts. And
we get a chance to cross-check our thinking with other people. Compare
experience. Check our logic. And so we tend to do that whenever we see
people saying things that don't quite make sense in our own frameworks
of thought. There's a chance we can learn something new, or maybe set
the other guy straight when he's confused. And we do that sometimes
even when it isn't appropriate.
And so all over the Internet there are people saying "You're wrong and
here's why!" "No, you completely misunderstood me, I'm right and you're
wrong!" "You're an idiot!" "You insulted me first so I win!" because
for them this is part of the process of learning something new. |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:13 pm |
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On 27-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:d1267d1ace]flaviaR@verizon.net wrote:
On 26-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
flaviaR@verizon.net wrote:
On 26-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
Try that approach. You're about to meet somebody, and all you know
is
they're jewish. What do you know about them from that? What that
tells
you is what jewishness defines.
Of course that's not so!
All that tells you is what YOU know, or even think you know, about
Judaism.
Of course. It says what jewishness defines for you. For someone else
it
might mean something else.
But that's of no consequence; that doesn;t makle others right.
I think that you and I have an unbridgeable gap, something that as
civilised people with a sense of tolerance we can only smile and shrug
and agree to disagree on. I can't hope to convince you, and as a
civilised person with a sense of tolerance it isn't necessary that I
try -- we can live peacefully in the same world without agreeing.
[/quote:d1267d1ace]
Certainly.
But I am trying to make a point that I think you are missing.
Everyone is certainly allowed to have opinions.
But there are times, and this is one of them, where opinions -
certainly not laymen's opinions - really do not count.
Susan |
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