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| stevemur |
 Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:45 pm |
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Guest
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Miriam Cohen wrote:
[quote:86217cd9e7]The Israeli military is a
legitimate arm of a legitimate government recognized by the entire world
as an arm of a legitimate government, got that so far? Hezbollah is not
the legitimate anything of *ANY* government anywhere, it is funded and
armed by Iran, trained and supplied by Syria but squatting without the
permission of the legitimate government in Lebanon it belongs to no
country it has no land to "protect" (as Israeli soldiers do) and has no
legitimate claim to anything or any where. This explanation was simple
enough for my 9 year old grand daughter, hopefully it was dumbed down
enough for even you.
[/quote:86217cd9e7]
I'd let it stand as an 'explanation', but your grand daughter does
deserve better. Hopefully there are others who can help her understand
things. If you're going to do it you'll have to work harder than that.
Your argument boils down to "Israel is different because it is
legitimate". By which you seem to mean, "Israel is legitimate because
leaders of powerful countries recognize Israel as legitimate". By
extension, I suppose, Hezbollah are terrorists because leaders of
powerful countries call them terrorists.
If you tell your grand daughter this, you're telling her "Think like a
slave, if you must think at all."
Another point you made was that Hezbollah are funded and armed by Syria
and Iran. But is Israel, perhaps, funded and armed by the United
States?
Just think about these things, in case your grand daughter asks you
more questions sometime. I have no compulsion to argue with you about
it. Say I concede the argument, if you like. |
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| Miriam Cohen |
| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:14 pm |
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Bob wrote:
[quote:b8e2ebbd4c]On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:35:01 -0700, Miriam Cohen
mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote:
Oxymoron. There is no such thing.
You are quite wrong.
You cannot convert your genes. Either your mother was Jewish, in which
case so are you, or not.
You continue to show what a moronic bigot you are.
The Gentle Reader will take note that although I did not use ad homs
the poster did. I win.
[/quote:b8e2ebbd4c]
It's not ad hominem if it's true as it so blatantly is in your case.
You're a to the bone bigot you've demonstrated it time and again.
[quote:b8e2ebbd4c]There are several ways to be Jewish.
There is only one way to be an authentic Jew and that is if your
mother is Jewish.
[/quote:b8e2ebbd4c]
Wrong. Two strikes you're out. Life is too short to dance with fat guys
or communicate with bone dense bigots. no more replies for you.
--
L'Chaim
Miriam
In the beginning
the Word already was. |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:59 pm |
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On 24-Jul-2006, Miriam Cohen <mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote:
[quote:139bad2ccc]Bob wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:35:01 -0700, Miriam Cohen
mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote:
Oxymoron. There is no such thing.
You are quite wrong.
You cannot convert your genes. Either your mother was Jewish, in which
case so are you, or not.
You continue to show what a moronic bigot you are.
The Gentle Reader will take note that although I did not use ad homs
the poster did. I win.
It's not ad hominem if it's true as it so blatantly is in your case.
You're a to the bone bigot you've demonstrated it time and again.
[/quote:139bad2ccc]
And even if he wins atthe "no open insults" contest,
he loses at everything else.
He lied, he insisted on lying, and he refused to be corrected
by those who actually know.
[quote:139bad2ccc]
There are several ways to be Jewish.
There is only one way to be an authentic Jew and that is if your
mother is Jewish.
Wrong. Two strikes you're out. Life is too short to dance with fat guys
[/quote:139bad2ccc]
Hey, some fatguys are really sweet guys.
How about, life's too short to dance with *sleazy* guys?
[quote:139bad2ccc]or communicate with bone dense bigots. no more replies for you.
[/quote:139bad2ccc]
My guess is that he was going to try to see how long he could spin it out.
Susan
[quote:139bad2ccc]
--
L'Chaim
Miriam
In the beginning
the Word already was.[/quote:139bad2ccc] |
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| Bob |
| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:09 pm |
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 16:14:30 -0700, Miriam Cohen
<mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote:
[quote:12736144af]You continue to show what a moronic bigot you are.
The Gentle Reader will take note that although I did not use ad homs
the poster did. I win.
It's not ad hominem if it's true as it so blatantly is in your case.
You're a to the bone bigot you've demonstrated it time and again.
[/quote:12736144af]
I win again.
[quote:12736144af]There are several ways to be Jewish.
There is only one way to be an authentic Jew and that is if your
mother is Jewish.
Wrong. Two strikes you're out. Life is too short to dance with fat guys
or communicate with bone dense bigots. no more replies for you.
[/quote:12736144af]
I win again.
This is really too easy.
--
Stop Repeat Offenders!
Don't Re-elect Them! |
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| Bob |
| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:12 pm |
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 16:16:17 -0700, Miriam Cohen
<mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote:
[quote:71dd1416c5]and he's a to the bone bigot. Funny how bigots are always too stupid to
keep themselves from outing themselves as the bigots they are and then
squealing like a stuck pig when they're called on their bigotry.
[/quote:71dd1416c5]
<yawn>
--
Stop Repeat Offenders!
Don't Re-elect Them! |
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| J Thomas |
| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:31 pm |
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Miriam Cohen wrote:
[quote:7675959545]Bob wrote:
You cannot convert your genes. Either your mother was Jewish, in which
case so are you, or not.
There are several
ways to be Jewish. My father was born a Cherokee, he was adopted at 6
months old and raised as and bar mitzvahed as a Jew. He was a Jew. After
WWII he became an atheist but he was still a Jew.
[/quote:7675959545]
One time my ex-wife invited me to go to a cherokee convention with her.
She was photographing it and writing a newspaper report, and I had the
impression she wasn't sure whether she wanted a bodyguard. So we
toured the place. There were camping tents and teepees. They explained
the teepees weren't authentic but the kids liked them. Some of the
organisers talked with us. A rather beautiful woman with very bad teeth
explained that to join you had to prove you were at least 1/16
cherokee. If there was a little doubt about the proof they'd likely
accept it. Like, a lot of people have a family tradition they have some
"black irish" ancestry. They said that when it was dangerous to admit
being part indian. It looked like it wasn't hard to get into, and it
looked like a lot of fun. The indian folk dances were a lot simpler
than greek folk dances or israeli folk dances.
A few months later I was in a grocery store and I overheard a woman
explaining her problems to the rent-a-cop. She was trying to join the
cherokee out-group, and she had proof that 4 of her great-grandparents
were cherokee but there was some question that one of them might only
be half-blood. There was an influential chief (who was also a police
chief) who was going to intercede on her behalf but it looked like that
wouldn't be enough. More delays, more expense for the genealogist, she
was so frustrated. I mentioned that it only took 1/16 blood to get in,
and she started yelling at me. The rent-a-cop took me aside and
explained that there was more than one cherokee organization that white
people could join, and she was completely disgusted by the one I knew
about.
After I thought about it, I realised that not only did I not know who's
really a cherokee, nobody else does either. As far as I'm concerned, if
somebody says he's a cherokee I'll call him a cherokee. If somebody
else disagrees they can fight it out among themselves, I'm not
interested.
[quote:7675959545]A Jew is someone whose mother is Jewish.
Among other things, but one is not required to have a Jewish mother when
one converts.
[/quote:7675959545]
Ah, this brings back memories. In grad school I knew this girl whose
father was jewish but whose mother was chinese. She didn't call herself
jewish, she said her religion was "anti-imperialism". She took me to
the local jewish community center. She fit in very well there although
she looked chinese; she knew exactly how to behave. I stuck out. It
wasn't that my eyes were blue and my hair then was blonde, a number of
them were, it was that I didn't act just right. Everybody could
immediately tell that I didn't belong. Once when I was waiting for her,
I watched some parents talk to a crying child. Another child had been
bullying him, and he didn't know what to do. They told him to always
run away and call for whoever was in charge. Don't stay there and let
him hit you again. I asked them if they'd give that advice if they were
in israel and they got offended at me. Later Judy told me that the
problem was they wouldn't take that talk from me. They'd take it from
somebody jewish.
Repeatedly, at the dances, Judy would spend some time talking to old
jewish women. These women each acted like she was in charge of the
whole universe, and whatever she disapproved of would get dissolved in
brimstone and all memory of it would be gone forever. They seemed
*powerful*. And Judy knew exactly what to say to them so they'd at
least appear to approve of her. Each time, at the end they'd ask her
about me. "And what is your relationship to Mr. Thomas here?" And each
time, she'd smile and say, "He is my friend." They'd look disappointed
but they had to accept that.
In highschool I'd had a jewish girlfriend (also named Judy). I tried
doing some of the things they said was polite, like walking on the
outside on the sidewalk. She was opposed to polite ritual. She had
orthodox relatives who spent every hour of very day following arcane
rituals, to the point they had no time for their lives. She pointed out
that if she lived like them she couldn't talk to me, much less kiss me.
Oh well. I have a jewish brother-in-law. He was raised orthodox, but
about 20 years ago he gave a speech about how he couldn't support
israeli apartheid and he walked out. He joined a Reform congregation.
My sister also joined, she wanted to become jewish so her stepson and
son would have a proper jewish family. I attended the stepson's bar
mitzvah. Some of his japanese relatives came from japan to attend it.
One of them gave a speech explaining that they have similar traditions
and he would have some sort of samurai ceremony when he visted japan
the next year. The half-japanese boy gave his
sermon-or-whatever-you-call-it on the topic that you can't just do
whatever God tells you to because so much of what God told the
israelites to do was morally wrong. You have to decide whether God is
right in what he demands from you. My blue-eyed blond nephew had his
bar mitzvah last year but I had to miss it.
I've had people tell me that my sister and nephew and his brother are
not actually jewish. It's so silly. The only possible conclusion here
is that just like with christians, being jewish isn't sufficient for
you to know who else is jewish and who isn't. Either that or the
overwhelming majority of people who think they're jewish aren't.
So if you say you're jewish, you're jewish. That's what it takes. If
you want to say somebody else who thinks he's jewish isn't really
jewish you can fight it out with him, it isn't my concern. And if you
say you're christian then you're christian. There are lots of
christians who point fingers at each other and each say the other isn't
christian at all. Religions have these little squabbles, it's just
something they do.
So I say you're right and Bob is wrong. Just because some jews say you
aren't jewish doesn't mean you aren't jewish. And it would be crazy to
accept Hitler's opinion about who's jewish and who isn't. He wasn't
even jewish himself. No, as far as I'm concerned you're jewish because
you say you're jewish. You're just as jewish as my own sister. You're
right and Bob is wrong. |
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| Miriam Cohen |
| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:48 am |
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Guest
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J Thomas wrote:
[quote:cf8907c842]Miriam Cohen wrote:
Bob wrote:
You cannot convert your genes. Either your mother was Jewish, in which
case so are you, or not.
There are several
ways to be Jewish. My father was born a Cherokee, he was adopted at 6
months old and raised as and bar mitzvahed as a Jew. He was a Jew. After
WWII he became an atheist but he was still a Jew.
One time my ex-wife invited me to go to a cherokee convention with her.
She was photographing it and writing a newspaper report, and I had the
impression she wasn't sure whether she wanted a bodyguard. So we
toured the place. There were camping tents and teepees. They explained
the teepees weren't authentic but the kids liked them. Some of the
organisers talked with us. A rather beautiful woman with very bad teeth
explained that to join you had to prove you were at least 1/16
cherokee. If there was a little doubt about the proof they'd likely
accept it. Like, a lot of people have a family tradition they have some
"black irish" ancestry. They said that when it was dangerous to admit
being part indian. It looked like it wasn't hard to get into, and it
looked like a lot of fun. The indian folk dances were a lot simpler
than greek folk dances or israeli folk dances.
A few months later I was in a grocery store and I overheard a woman
explaining her problems to the rent-a-cop. She was trying to join the
cherokee out-group, and she had proof that 4 of her great-grandparents
were cherokee but there was some question that one of them might only
be half-blood. There was an influential chief (who was also a police
chief) who was going to intercede on her behalf but it looked like that
wouldn't be enough. More delays, more expense for the genealogist, she
was so frustrated. I mentioned that it only took 1/16 blood to get in,
and she started yelling at me. The rent-a-cop took me aside and
explained that there was more than one cherokee organization that white
people could join, and she was completely disgusted by the one I knew
about.
After I thought about it, I realised that not only did I not know who's
really a cherokee, nobody else does either. As far as I'm concerned, if
somebody says he's a cherokee I'll call him a cherokee. If somebody
else disagrees they can fight it out among themselves, I'm not
interested.
A Jew is someone whose mother is Jewish.
Among other things, but one is not required to have a Jewish mother when
one converts.
Ah, this brings back memories. In grad school I knew this girl whose
father was jewish but whose mother was chinese. She didn't call herself
jewish, she said her religion was "anti-imperialism". She took me to
the local jewish community center. She fit in very well there although
she looked chinese; she knew exactly how to behave. I stuck out. It
wasn't that my eyes were blue and my hair then was blonde, a number of
them were, it was that I didn't act just right. Everybody could
immediately tell that I didn't belong. Once when I was waiting for her,
I watched some parents talk to a crying child. Another child had been
bullying him, and he didn't know what to do. They told him to always
run away and call for whoever was in charge. Don't stay there and let
him hit you again. I asked them if they'd give that advice if they were
in israel and they got offended at me. Later Judy told me that the
problem was they wouldn't take that talk from me. They'd take it from
somebody jewish.
Repeatedly, at the dances, Judy would spend some time talking to old
jewish women. These women each acted like she was in charge of the
whole universe, and whatever she disapproved of would get dissolved in
brimstone and all memory of it would be gone forever. They seemed
*powerful*. And Judy knew exactly what to say to them so they'd at
least appear to approve of her. Each time, at the end they'd ask her
about me. "And what is your relationship to Mr. Thomas here?" And each
time, she'd smile and say, "He is my friend." They'd look disappointed
but they had to accept that.
In highschool I'd had a jewish girlfriend (also named Judy). I tried
doing some of the things they said was polite, like walking on the
outside on the sidewalk. She was opposed to polite ritual. She had
orthodox relatives who spent every hour of very day following arcane
rituals, to the point they had no time for their lives. She pointed out
that if she lived like them she couldn't talk to me, much less kiss me.
Oh well. I have a jewish brother-in-law. He was raised orthodox, but
about 20 years ago he gave a speech about how he couldn't support
israeli apartheid and he walked out. He joined a Reform congregation.
My sister also joined, she wanted to become jewish so her stepson and
son would have a proper jewish family. I attended the stepson's bar
mitzvah. Some of his japanese relatives came from japan to attend it.
One of them gave a speech explaining that they have similar traditions
and he would have some sort of samurai ceremony when he visted japan
the next year. The half-japanese boy gave his
sermon-or-whatever-you-call-it on the topic that you can't just do
whatever God tells you to because so much of what God told the
israelites to do was morally wrong. You have to decide whether God is
right in what he demands from you. My blue-eyed blond nephew had his
bar mitzvah last year but I had to miss it.
I've had people tell me that my sister and nephew and his brother are
not actually jewish. It's so silly. The only possible conclusion here
is that just like with christians, being jewish isn't sufficient for
you to know who else is jewish and who isn't. Either that or the
overwhelming majority of people who think they're jewish aren't.
So if you say you're jewish, you're jewish. That's what it takes. If
you want to say somebody else who thinks he's jewish isn't really
jewish you can fight it out with him, it isn't my concern. And if you
say you're christian then you're christian. There are lots of
christians who point fingers at each other and each say the other isn't
christian at all. Religions have these little squabbles, it's just
something they do.
So I say you're right and Bob is wrong. Just because some jews say you
aren't jewish doesn't mean you aren't jewish. And it would be crazy to
accept Hitler's opinion about who's jewish and who isn't. He wasn't
even jewish himself.
[/quote:cf8907c842]
No, but his mother's father was.
[quote:cf8907c842]No, as far as I'm concerned you're jewish because
you say you're jewish.
[/quote:cf8907c842]
That and my mother was Jewish.
[quote:cf8907c842]You're just as jewish as my own sister. You're
right and Bob is wrong.
[/quote:cf8907c842]
--
L'Chaim
Miriam
In the beginning
the Word already was. |
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| J Thomas |
| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:54 am |
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Miriam Cohen wrote:
[quote:be2075883b]J Thomas wrote:
So I say you're right and Bob is wrong. Just because some jews say you
aren't jewish doesn't mean you aren't jewish. And it would be crazy to
accept Hitler's opinion about who's jewish and who isn't. He wasn't
even jewish himself.
No, but his mother's father was.
[/quote:be2075883b]
Maybe. I saw things from the war where they claimed that and said
everybody ought to call Hitler by his real name, Schickelgruber. It
looked like particularly silly wartime propaganda, but it could have
been true. But sometimes when people make silly wartime propaganda they
go to some trouble to falsify records too. It would take a careful
historical search to find the truth now. And it's pretty much a dead
issue.
[quote:be2075883b]No, as far as I'm concerned you're jewish because
you say you're jewish.
That and my mother was Jewish.
[/quote:be2075883b]
That might have some sort of importance in your own mind. But *really*,
you're jewish because you say you are and for no other reason. You're
jewish if you say you are. Your mother was jewish if she said she was.
Her mother was jewish if she said she was and so on.
> > You're just as jewish as my own sister. You're right and Bob is wrong. |
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| Bob |
| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:59 am |
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 23:59:49 GMT, flaviaR@verizon.net wrote:
[quote:e08a82aa55]And even if he wins atthe "no open insults" contest,
he loses at everything else.
He lied, he insisted on lying, and he refused to be corrected
by those who actually know.
Hey, some fatguys are really sweet guys.
How about, life's too short to dance with *sleazy* guys?
My guess is that he was going to try to see how long he could spin it out.
Susan
[/quote:e08a82aa55]
You need to go back to troll school.
--
Stop Repeat Offenders!
Don't Re-elect Them! |
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| Bob |
| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:09 am |
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On 24 Jul 2006 17:31:01 -0700, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:c8bff52f87]as far as I'm concerned you're jewish because
you say you're jewish. You're right and Bob is wrong.
[/quote:c8bff52f87]
That's absurd.
If you adopt that posture then the term "jewish" has no clear meaning.
It's become a euphemism for "anybody".
"I am anybody I claim to be".
"I am Jewish".
Actually I may be Jewish and not know it. My greatgrandmother on my
mother's side was named Becker, which is a Jewish name. She lived in
Germany before the wars. Several people over the course of my lifetime
have accused me of being a Jew based on my behavior. I had no problem
making friends with the Jews at graduate school - they seemed to
gravitate to me. And in the business world it was Jews who offered me
the greatest help when I needed it - when Goys would not give me the
time of day.
I am Jewish.
--
Stop Repeat Offenders!
Don't Re-elect Them! |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:27 am |
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On 25-Jul-2006, Miriam Cohen <mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote:
[quote:106096a7c3]And it would be crazy to
accept Hitler's opinion about who's jewish and who isn't. He wasn't
even jewish himself.
No, but his mother's father was.
[/quote:106096a7c3]
I don't think there's any real evidence of this.
Susan |
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| stevemur |
| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:35 pm |
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J Thomas wrote:
[quote:e4bbcf6ddd]Bob wrote:
"J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
as far as I'm concerned you're jewish because
you say you're jewish. You're right and Bob is wrong.
That's absurd.
If you adopt that posture then the term "jewish" has no clear meaning.
It has a clear meaning. People are jewish when they say they are.
[/quote:e4bbcf6ddd]
I think Bob's point is good.
In general terms, how can you define a group that anyone can join at
whim? Isn't the whole essence of any group that some people are
members and some aren't? And if there is no definition -- if the name
of the group doesn't refer to anything at all -- then why would anyone
choose to join or not join? It would effectively not exist.
I think of human groups like sets in mathematics, only a lot messier.
The only purpose of defining a set is so that you know which things are
in it and which things aren't.
Then again, that's why I have so much trouble understanding these new
social movements that talk about "What do you identify as?"
[quote:e4bbcf6ddd]Can
you give me a clearer meaning than that, that doesn't disenfranchise
the majority of people who think they're jewish? Certainly not the one
that says there's no conversion. And not the one that says they have to
practice some kind of judaism. This is the clearest meaning.
[/quote:e4bbcf6ddd]
But maybe you're just saying, "To me, judeasm doesn't exist?"
[quote:e4bbcf6ddd]It's become a euphemism for "anybody".
No, it doesn't. The large majority of people in the world don't say
they're jewish. There's even a small minority of people who'd be proud
not to be jewish.
[/quote:e4bbcf6ddd]
They're not using the same definition you are, though. For example,
when I say that I'm not Jewish I mean something like "The history of
the Jewish people doesn't apply to me." I know that's problematic in a
lot of ways, but that's how I think of it.
I can't imagine anyone saying "I'm not Jewish," and meaning only "I'm
not one of those people who says `I am Jewish.'" |
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| CyrilGrey |
| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:35 pm |
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You're right. And in Israel, people aren't allowed to get married
without showing proof that their mother and grandmother were Jewish.
It's most definitely a race.
Pinky & Perky sing sad songs for the Lebanon wrote:
[quote:6e19a6a5e1]Why don't you consult a Rabbi? - he will undoubtedly confirm that only blood
lineage makes a person Jewish.
That might be disconcerting for you - desperate as you are to be more kosher
than Moses, but it is nevertheless perfectly true.
No orthodox Jew would accept your ridiculous attempt to metamorphose
yourself into a latter day Ruth, and in your heart you know it to be so
Goy thou wert, Goy art thou now, and Goy shalt thou ever be![/quote:6e19a6a5e1] |
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| CyrilGrey |
| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:38 pm |
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I can start telling people I'm black, but I still can't dance.
Bob wrote:
[quote:848d580526]On 24 Jul 2006 17:31:01 -0700, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
as far as I'm concerned you're jewish because
you say you're jewish. You're right and Bob is wrong.
That's absurd.
If you adopt that posture then the term "jewish" has no clear meaning.
It's become a euphemism for "anybody".
"I am anybody I claim to be".
"I am Jewish".
Actually I may be Jewish and not know it. My greatgrandmother on my
mother's side was named Becker, which is a Jewish name. She lived in
Germany before the wars. Several people over the course of my lifetime
have accused me of being a Jew based on my behavior. I had no problem
making friends with the Jews at graduate school - they seemed to
gravitate to me. And in the business world it was Jews who offered me
the greatest help when I needed it - when Goys would not give me the
time of day.
I am Jewish.
--
Stop Repeat Offenders!
Don't Re-elect Them![/quote:848d580526] |
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:56 am |
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On 25-Jul-2006, "J Thomas" <jethomas5@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:8265246d2a]Actually I may be Jewish and not know it.
No, you can't be jewish and not know it. If you don't say you're
jewish, you aren't.
[/quote:8265246d2a]
This is not true.
Judaism has rules for who is/not a Jew,and "self awareness"
is not one of them.
Being Jewish is a state of spiritual being.
I appreciate your point of view, and the generosity of spirit
behind it, but you are simply not fully correct.
Susan |
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