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zara
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 1:38 am
 
The Merck Index says that adding approx. 83 ml of 38% (concd) HCl to lL
water makes a 1N solution.

That would seem to mean that adding 31.54 gms 100% HCl to 1L water would
make 1N solution.

I thought that adding 36.5 gms 100% HCl to lL = lN

That would mean adding about 96 ml 38%.

Am I missing something or does "approx" mean very approximate?
 
Borek
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:03 am
 
On Wed, 24 May 2006 09:38:59 +0200, zara <mazxara.x@yahoo.com> wrote:

[quote:e566d40a0a]The Merck Index says that adding approx. 83 ml of 38% (concd) HCl to lL
water makes a 1N solution.
[/quote:e566d40a0a]
Strange, as it will give 0.95N

[quote:e566d40a0a]I thought that adding 36.5 gms 100% HCl to lL = lN
That would mean adding about 96 ml 38%.
[/quote:e566d40a0a]
That will give 1.1L of 1.1N solution. Or - more precisely - 1.09 of 1.09 :)

[quote:e566d40a0a]Am I missing something or does "approx" mean very approximate?
[/quote:e566d40a0a]
I don't get it - if they suggest to use 83 mL it seems like you may expect
solution to be 1.0 N (two significant digits in both places). For 1N
solution you may use 80mL as well.

Try solution mixer from concentration calculator (note it takes density
changes into account when calculating, so results are as precise as
possible):

http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=CASC&right=solution_dilution

Looks like you need 88mL of 38% HCl. Perhaps 83 is a typo? 3 is very
similar to 8.

Best,
Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-Nernst-equation
http://www.terapia-kregoslupa.waw.pl
 
Lasse Murtomäki
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:05 am
 
What is the density of 38 % HCl? Old problem: volume % vs. weight %.

--
Lasse Murtomäki
Helsinki Univ. Tech.
Lab.Phys.Chem.Electrochem.
lasse.murtomaki@tkk.fi
 
Borek
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:54 am
 
On Wed, 24 May 2006 14:05:02 +0200, Lasse Murtomäki <lmurtoma@cc.hut.fi>
wrote:

[quote:828c351f6c]What is the density of 38 % HCl?
[/quote:828c351f6c]
1.1885

[quote:828c351f6c]Old problem: volume % vs. weight %.
[/quote:828c351f6c]
Doubtfull - if you will use 38% w/v you will get 0.8N solution.

All of the above calculated/checked with CASC :)

http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=CASC&right=concentration_and_solution_calculator

Best,
Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-Nernst-equation
http://www.terapia-kregoslupa.waw.pl
 
mail.uni-wuppertal.de
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:35 am
 
"Borek" <m.borkowski@delete.chembuddy.these.com.parts> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:op.s913gmp626l578@borek...
[quote:cfb021e94a]On Wed, 24 May 2006 14:05:02 +0200, Lasse Murtomäki <lmurtoma@cc.hut.fi
wrote:

What is the density of 38 % HCl?

1.1885

Old problem: volume % vs. weight %.

Doubtfull - if you will use 38% w/v you will get 0.8N solution.

All of the above calculated/checked with CASC :)

http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=CASC&right=concentration_and_solution_calculator

Best,
Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-Nernst-equation
http://www.terapia-kregoslupa.waw.pl
[/quote:cfb021e94a]
I think the rule of thumb is that concentrated HCl is 12 molar.
A dilution of 1 to 12 to yield 1M (= 1N) would require 83.3 mL conc. per
litre.
To the nearest mL, then, 83.



If conc. HCl really were 38 % and had a density of 1.18, then

83 mL x 1.18 x .38 = 37.2 g HCl

That is 37.2 / 36.46 = 1.02M



In other words, the concentrated HCl would really be 12.2M.



However, my Handbook (65th ed., 1984-1985) says 38 % at 20°C
has a density of 1.1907 and a concentration of 12.385M.



For what it is worth, I note that my bottle of fuming HCl from Roth
claims to be 37 % and have a density of ca. 1.19..



Walter
 
Borek
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 9:09 am
 
On Wed, 24 May 2006 16:35:31 +0200, mail.uni-wuppertal.de
<turner@uni-wuppertal.de> wrote:

[quote:9edf170dbb]What is the density of 38 % HCl?

1.1885

If conc. HCl really were 38 % and had a density of 1.18, then
83 mL x 1.18 x .38 = 37.2 g HCl
That is 37.2 / 36.46 = 1.02M
[/quote:9edf170dbb]
1.02 mole, not 1.02M, as concentration depends on the final volume.

Please take a look here:

http://www.chembuddy.com/img/HCl.png

1st solution + 2nd solution gives mixed solution. Sm is solution mass.

[quote:9edf170dbb]However, my Handbook (65th ed., 1984-1985) says 38 % at 20°C
has a density of 1.1907 and a concentration of 12.385M.

For what it is worth, I note that my bottle of fuming HCl from Roth
claims to be 37 % and have a density of ca. 1.19..
[/quote:9edf170dbb]
Preparing density tables for CASC I have checked several handbooks - and
they differ in details. Those published in fifties/sixties contained two
different sets of data (apparently copied from two different original
sources). Values you are citing are identical with these given in
Physicochemical handbook published in 1962 in Warsaw by WNT. In CASC I am
using data taken from "International Critical Tables" (I don't remember
who published them - but I remember which shelf they occupy in my Dept.
library Wink ). No way to tell which source is correct, to be honest I have
selected ICT as a source just because it was easier to enter the data due
to the way they were printed.

Best,
Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-Nernst-equation
http://www.terapia-kregoslupa.waw.pl
 
Lloyd Parker
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 9:57 am
 
In article <op.s92imfpq26l578@borek>,
Borek <m.borkowski@delete.chembuddy.these.com.parts> wrote:
[quote:ac0c1bcd5d]On Wed, 24 May 2006 19:21:10 +0200, Farooq W <farooq.w@gmail.com> wrote:

I guess the crux of the problem is that the OP has written that 83 mL
HCl added to 1L which makes the total volume 1083 mL. However the
correct procedure should to be add 83 mL and *dilute* to 1L. Does this
now equal 1 N HCl ?

That was my first idea too, but it doesn't work. You have to add about 918
mL of water and final concentration is 1.028 M. My take is that it is the
typo I mentioned (88 mL instead of 83 mL).

To make 1 M solution diluting to 1000 mL you should take 81 mL of 38% w/w
HCl.
[/quote:ac0c1bcd5d]
Actually, 80. The dens. of 38% HCl is given by CRC as 1.1908.

[quote:ac0c1bcd5d]
Adding 83 mL of the mentioned solution of HCl to 1000 mL of water you get
1080 mL of solution, not 1083 mL.

CASC rulez ;)

Best,
Borek[/quote:ac0c1bcd5d]
 
Farooq W
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:21 am
 
Borek,

I guess the crux of the problem is that the OP has written that 83 mL
HCl added to 1L which makes the total volume 1083 mL. However the
correct procedure should to be add 83 mL and *dilute* to 1L. Does this
now equal 1 N HCl ?

Borek wrote:
[quote:4a7b99ebe0]On Wed, 24 May 2006 16:35:31 +0200, mail.uni-wuppertal.de
turner@uni-wuppertal.de> wrote:

What is the density of 38 % HCl?

1.1885

If conc. HCl really were 38 % and had a density of 1.18, then
83 mL x 1.18 x .38 = 37.2 g HCl
That is 37.2 / 36.46 = 1.02M

1.02 mole, not 1.02M, as concentration depends on the final volume.

Please take a look here:

http://www.chembuddy.com/img/HCl.png

1st solution + 2nd solution gives mixed solution. Sm is solution mass.

However, my Handbook (65th ed., 1984-1985) says 38 % at 20°C
has a density of 1.1907 and a concentration of 12.385M.

For what it is worth, I note that my bottle of fuming HCl from Roth
claims to be 37 % and have a density of ca. 1.19..

Preparing density tables for CASC I have checked several handbooks - and
they differ in details. Those published in fifties/sixties contained two
different sets of data (apparently copied from two different original
sources). Values you are citing are identical with these given in
Physicochemical handbook published in 1962 in Warsaw by WNT. In CASC I am
using data taken from "International Critical Tables" (I don't remember
who published them - but I remember which shelf they occupy in my Dept.
library Wink ). No way to tell which source is correct, to be honest I have
selected ICT as a source just because it was easier to enter the data due
to the way they were printed.

Best,
Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-Nernst-equation
http://www.terapia-kregoslupa.waw.pl[/quote:4a7b99ebe0]
 
Borek
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:21 pm
 
On Wed, 24 May 2006 19:21:10 +0200, Farooq W <farooq.w@gmail.com> wrote:

[quote:a55cfb76e1]I guess the crux of the problem is that the OP has written that 83 mL
HCl added to 1L which makes the total volume 1083 mL. However the
correct procedure should to be add 83 mL and *dilute* to 1L. Does this
now equal 1 N HCl ?
[/quote:a55cfb76e1]
That was my first idea too, but it doesn't work. You have to add about 918
mL of water and final concentration is 1.028 M. My take is that it is the
typo I mentioned (88 mL instead of 83 mL).

To make 1 M solution diluting to 1000 mL you should take 81 mL of 38% w/w
HCl.

Adding 83 mL of the mentioned solution of HCl to 1000 mL of water you get
1080 mL of solution, not 1083 mL.

CASC rulez ;)

Best,
Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-Nernst-equation
http://www.terapia-kregoslupa.waw.pl
 
Borek
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:41 pm
 
On Wed, 24 May 2006 17:57:31 +0200, Lloyd Parker <lparker@emory.edu> wrote:

[quote:3f628f2352]I guess the crux of the problem is that the OP has written that 83 mL
HCl added to 1L which makes the total volume 1083 mL. However the
correct procedure should to be add 83 mL and *dilute* to 1L. Does this
now equal 1 N HCl ?

That was my first idea too, but it doesn't work. You have to add about
918
mL of water and final concentration is 1.028 M. My take is that it is
the
typo I mentioned (88 mL instead of 83 mL).

To make 1 M solution diluting to 1000 mL you should take 81 mL of 38%
w/w HCl.

Actually, 80. The dens. of 38% HCl is given by CRC as 1.1908.
[/quote:3f628f2352]
As I have already explained it depends on which density tables you use.
According to the tables I have selected, density of the 38% HCl at 20 deg
C is 1.1885, which gives 80.732 mL needed for 1L of 1N solution.
Unfortunately I don't have exact bibliographic info about the book
(International Critical Tables) at home, and my Dept. library is about 30
miles away. I have some photocopied pages only so all I know is some names
- LJ Gillespy was a special editor for these tables, while JA Beattie
edited HCl densities table. As Gillespy was MIT professor (I think Beattie
was at MIT too) I have no reason to suppose these tables are wrong. I have
also no reason to suppose CRC is wrong, although for obvious reasons they
can't be correct both at the same time :)

Note that if you are unsatisfied with the density tables in CASC you may
modify them at any moment (assuming you use registered version of the
program).

Best,
Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-Nernst-equation
 
Bob
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:11 pm
 
On Wed, 24 May 2006 17:09:37 +0200, Borek
<m.borkowski@delete.chembuddy.these.com.parts> wrote:

[quote:1617177599]
Preparing density tables for CASC I have checked several handbooks - and
they differ in details. Those published in fifties/sixties contained two
different sets of data (apparently copied from two different original
sources). Values you are citing are identical with these given in
Physicochemical handbook published in 1962 in Warsaw by WNT. In CASC I am
using data taken from "International Critical Tables" (I don't remember
who published them
[/quote:1617177599]
ICT came from a depression era project to employ people. Lots of data,
generally well regarded. (Published by US govt ??)


[quote:1617177599]- but I remember which shelf they occupy in my Dept.
library Wink ). No way to tell which source is correct, to be honest I have
selected ICT as a source just because it was easier to enter the data due
to the way they were printed.
[/quote:1617177599]
If this really were important (and perhaps it is re your program
database)... It might be worth tracking down original sources, and
seeing whether the newer one makes any note of the discrepancy.

(If you need some help finding older articles, feel free to email me
privately, preferably at bbruner@berkeley.edu)

bob
 
Lloyd Parker
Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 6:54 am
 
In article <op.s92ru8wo26l578@borek>,
Borek <m.borkowski@delete.chembuddy.these.com.parts> wrote:
[quote:f41631893f]On Wed, 24 May 2006 17:57:31 +0200, Lloyd Parker <lparker@emory.edu> wrote:

I guess the crux of the problem is that the OP has written that 83 mL
HCl added to 1L which makes the total volume 1083 mL. However the
correct procedure should to be add 83 mL and *dilute* to 1L. Does this
now equal 1 N HCl ?

That was my first idea too, but it doesn't work. You have to add about
918
mL of water and final concentration is 1.028 M. My take is that it is
the
typo I mentioned (88 mL instead of 83 mL).

To make 1 M solution diluting to 1000 mL you should take 81 mL of 38%
w/w HCl.

Actually, 80. The dens. of 38% HCl is given by CRC as 1.1908.

As I have already explained it depends on which density tables you use.
According to the tables I have selected, density of the 38% HCl at 20 deg
C is 1.1885, which gives 80.732 mL needed for 1L of 1N solution.
[/quote:f41631893f]
The CRC is really a specific gravity, and is for 20 C.

In my old Wiley Chemical Data paperback, I found a density of 1.1980 for 40%
HCl. I wonder if they're rounding there? I don't think you can have 40%.


[quote:f41631893f]Unfortunately I don't have exact bibliographic info about the book
(International Critical Tables) at home, and my Dept. library is about 30
miles away. I have some photocopied pages only so all I know is some names
- LJ Gillespy was a special editor for these tables, while JA Beattie
edited HCl densities table. As Gillespy was MIT professor (I think Beattie
was at MIT too) I have no reason to suppose these tables are wrong. I have
also no reason to suppose CRC is wrong, although for obvious reasons they
can't be correct both at the same time :)

Note that if you are unsatisfied with the density tables in CASC you may
modify them at any moment (assuming you use registered version of the
program).

Best,
Borek[/quote:f41631893f]
 
Jean
Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:33 pm
 
Lloyd Parker a écrit dans le message ...
[quote:1eaebe8d7f]In article <op.s92ru8wo26l578@borek>,
Borek <m.borkowski@delete.chembuddy.these.com.parts> wrote:
On Wed, 24 May 2006 17:57:31 +0200, Lloyd Parker <lparker@emory.edu
wrote:

I guess the crux of the problem is that the OP has written that 83 mL
HCl added to 1L which makes the total volume 1083 mL. However the
correct procedure should to be add 83 mL and *dilute* to 1L. Does this
now equal 1 N HCl ?

That was my first idea too, but it doesn't work. You have to add about
918
mL of water and final concentration is 1.028 M. My take is that it is
the
typo I mentioned (88 mL instead of 83 mL).

To make 1 M solution diluting to 1000 mL you should take 81 mL of 38%
w/w HCl.

Actually, 80. The dens. of 38% HCl is given by CRC as 1.1908.

As I have already explained it depends on which density tables you use.
According to the tables I have selected, density of the 38% HCl at 20 deg
C is 1.1885, which gives 80.732 mL needed for 1L of 1N solution.

The CRC is really a specific gravity, and is for 20 C.

In my old Wiley Chemical Data paperback, I found a density of 1.1980 for
40%
HCl. I wonder if they're rounding there? I don't think you can have 40%.


Unfortunately I don't have exact bibliographic info about the book
(International Critical Tables) at home, and my Dept. library is about 30
miles away. I have some photocopied pages only so all I know is some names
- LJ Gillespy was a special editor for these tables, while JA Beattie
edited HCl densities table. As Gillespy was MIT professor (I think Beattie
was at MIT too) I have no reason to suppose these tables are wrong. I have
also no reason to suppose CRC is wrong, although for obvious reasons they
can't be correct both at the same time :)

Note that if you are unsatisfied with the density tables in CASC you may
modify them at any moment (assuming you use registered version of the
program).

Best,
Borek
[/quote:1eaebe8d7f]
CRC gives 38% w/w HCL 1.1886 relative density at 20°. 380/ 36.5 yields
10.41 moles of HCL in a 1000 grams of solution. 1000 g/1.1886 = 0.841 liters
or 10.41mole/0.841 liters = 12.378 moles/liter concentration .

(1M)(1000ml) = (12.378M) (V) V= 80.788 ml or dilute 80.788 ml of 38% w/w
HCL to 1000ml for 1N HCL .

or for a molecular weight of 36.453 HCL V= 80.7256

JL
 
Borek
Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 3:21 pm
 
On Thu, 25 May 2006 20:33:07 +0200, Jean <jean.lenior@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

[quote:229ea3dd17]molecular weight of 36.453 HCL
[/quote:229ea3dd17]
36.4609 (1.0079+35.4530) for the real nitpickers ;)

I have a lot of confidence in the CASC precision, but if someone likes to
test it - there is a 30 days free trial.

http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=CASC&right=download

Best,
Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-Nernst-equation
 
Borek
Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 3:23 pm
 
On Thu, 25 May 2006 14:54:48 +0200, Lloyd Parker <lparker@emory.edu> wrote:

[quote:3f74992eb5]In my old Wiley Chemical Data paperback, I found a density of 1.1980 for
40%
HCl. I wonder if they're rounding there? I don't think you can have
40%.
[/quote:3f74992eb5]
In the book I have referred to earlier (International Critical Tables)
same value is given.

Best,
Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-Nernst-equation
http://www.terapia-kregoslupa.waw.pl
 
 
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