On 4 Feb 2004 10:56:39 -0800, Duncan Craig wrote:
[SNIP]
There is another link between the Irish and Chinese, that being the Tocharians;
kilt-wearing red-headed mummies found in the Taklamakan.

That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it?
Well, there were kilt-wearing red-headed mummies found on Chinas

proper, although a close step. And we have no reason to think the
Tocharians had any contact with Ireland, do we?

Doug

Doug Weller wrote:

On 4 Feb 2004 10:56:39 -0800, Duncan Craig wrote:
[SNIP]
There is another link between the Irish and Chinese, that being the Tocharians;
kilt-wearing red-headed mummies found in the Taklamakan.

That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? And still one step away from China
proper, although a close step. And we have no reason to think the
Tocharians had any contact with Ireland, do we?

Doug

The red-haired kilted mummies are all too often conflated with the
records of the Tocharian language which we find in the same area more
than 1000 years later. Tocharian is Indo-European, but has no special
connection with Celtic. And we don't know what the mummies spoke. And of
course the area in question would not be "Chinese" until...when?

Ross Clark

Doug Weller <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message news:<exkfkkjxpzah$.xcowkev8092q$.dlg@40tude.net>...
On 4 Feb 2004 10:56:39 -0800, Duncan Craig wrote:
[SNIP]
There is another link between the Irish and Chinese, that being the Tocharians;
kilt-wearing red-headed mummies found in the Taklamakan.

That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it?
Well, there were kilt-wearing red-headed mummies found on Chinas
doorstep.
What is the 'stretch'? That there was a link? Yes, pure speculation
inspired by the article. There may be some dna studies going on, but
the idea of a Chinese Irish relationship in the archaic, or a
Tocharian-Irish, is a new one on me.
I don't know, but I'm not going to jump on the diffusionist model for
the sake of jumping. Maybe the Irish ruled the world before whiskey.

And still one step away from China
proper, although a close step. And we have no reason to think the
Tocharians had any contact with Ireland, do we?

Doug

Ok, don't rub it in, or I'll take up the torch. The Tocharians are
interesting.

"Doug Weller" <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message
news:upu3mquoeexv.1gpcu0oquefev.dlg@40tude.net...
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 08:59:06 +1300, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:55:35 +0000, Doug Weller
dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote:

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:57:14 +1300, Eric Stevens wrote:

I've found it and I'me emabarassed. It was I
Well, that's a good authority as far as I'm concerned :-)

You beat me to it. It's worth reading the whole thread:

http://tinyurl.com/2dt9v

I'm bothered by the apparently random nature of the finds -- 'some in deep
bogs, one in a cave, others scattered about'. But all (about 50) almost
identical. And apparently none found since. You ask what they were and
how they got there -- a very good question. I want to know what feasible
scenarios would explain the variety of places where they were found and the
lack of any reported finds since. I can't think of one that matches the
description of where they were found.

Neither can I but I am handicapped by being totally ignorant of the
locations and geography of where they were found. I would also like to
know what happened to the artifacts. Do they still exist? Has their
nature been properly established? Are there any Dublin residents
reading this thread?

Eric Stevens

This is on Menzies site:
"Fifty Chinese seals are in the possession of an Irish museum, dated
1200AD-1600AD, found all over SE Ireland. Scientific American magazine, May
2002 page 16. ´A paper was read before the Belfast Literary Society in
Ireland, on Chinese porcelain seals. About fifty of these have been found
there, some in deep bogs, one in a cave, others scattered about. How they
came there nobody can tell. They have inscriptions on them in the ancient
Chinese seal language, and Mr. [Rev. Dr. Karl] Gutzlaff had translated a
number of them. Each seal is a perfect cube, with the figure of a Chinese
monkey by way of a handle. It is supposed they may have been brought there
by ancient Phoenicians, but it is our opinion that they were brought there
by some of the ancient Irish tribes, who no doubt journeyed through China."
(David Upton) Could these seals have been brought here by the Chinese on
the great 1421 voyages?"

For some strange reason the actual date of the paper has been left out. :-)

BUT!

http://people.freenet.de/kompost/chinseal.htm

Pictures, a distribution map, etc. Ok, someone beat me to it. It might be
worthwhile contacting Jan Chapman, orientalist at Chester Beatty Library in
Dublin. Eric? She thinks they are early 18th century.

They could have course have been looted from a post 1600AD shipwreck? Nasty that
Irish coast....

For god's sake look at the map!

benlizross <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message news:<402172A0.2925@ihug.co.nz>...
Doug Weller wrote:

On 4 Feb 2004 10:56:39 -0800, Duncan Craig wrote:
[SNIP]
There is another link between the Irish and Chinese, that being the Tocharians;
kilt-wearing red-headed mummies found in the Taklamakan.

That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? And still one step away from China
proper, although a close step. And we have no reason to think the
Tocharians had any contact with Ireland, do we?

Doug

The red-haired kilted mummies are all too often conflated with the
records of the Tocharian language which we find in the same area more
than 1000 years later. Tocharian is Indo-European, but has no special
connection with Celtic. And we don't know what the mummies spoke. And of
course the area in question would not be "Chinese" until...when?

Ross Clark

Well, the Ch'in established garrisons at the Jade Gate circa 230 bc.

Nothing was
"Chinese" til then. Before, it was variously Tibetan, Uighyer,
Scythian,Hsiung Nu, etc.

Loulun and elsewhere. And indications that the Taklamakan was pretty
lush at one time.
Here is a space shuttle Synthetic Aperature Radar picture of what they
believe is a very large man-made canal in the middle of the desert.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/viewrecord?1337

Its an interesting part of the world...
a regular wild west

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 01:38:51 -0000, "Martin Reboul"
martin@SPAMFUKreboul1471.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:


"Doug Weller" <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message
news:upu3mquoeexv.1gpcu0oquefev.dlg@40tude.net...
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 08:59:06 +1300, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:55:35 +0000, Doug Weller
dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote:

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:57:14 +1300, Eric Stevens wrote:

I've found it and I'me emabarassed. It was I
Well, that's a good authority as far as I'm concerned :-)

You beat me to it. It's worth reading the whole thread:

http://tinyurl.com/2dt9v

I'm bothered by the apparently random nature of the finds -- 'some in deep
bogs, one in a cave, others scattered about'. But all (about 50) almost
identical. And apparently none found since. You ask what they were and
how they got there -- a very good question. I want to know what feasible
scenarios would explain the variety of places where they were found and the
lack of any reported finds since. I can't think of one that matches the
description of where they were found.

Neither can I but I am handicapped by being totally ignorant of the
locations and geography of where they were found. I would also like to
know what happened to the artifacts. Do they still exist? Has their
nature been properly established? Are there any Dublin residents
reading this thread?

Eric Stevens

This is on Menzies site:
"Fifty Chinese seals are in the possession of an Irish museum, dated
1200AD-1600AD, found all over SE Ireland. Scientific American magazine, May
2002 page 16. ´A paper was read before the Belfast Literary Society in
Ireland, on Chinese porcelain seals. About fifty of these have been found
there, some in deep bogs, one in a cave, others scattered about. How they
came there nobody can tell. They have inscriptions on them in the ancient
Chinese seal language, and Mr. [Rev. Dr. Karl] Gutzlaff had translated a
number of them. Each seal is a perfect cube, with the figure of a Chinese
monkey by way of a handle. It is supposed they may have been brought there
by ancient Phoenicians, but it is our opinion that they were brought there
by some of the ancient Irish tribes, who no doubt journeyed through China."
(David Upton) Could these seals have been brought here by the Chinese on
the great 1421 voyages?"

For some strange reason the actual date of the paper has been left out. :-)

BUT!

http://people.freenet.de/kompost/chinseal.htm

Pictures, a distribution map, etc. Ok, someone beat me to it. It might be
worthwhile contacting Jan Chapman, orientalist at Chester Beatty Library in
Dublin. Eric? She thinks they are early 18th century.

They could have course have been looted from a post 1600AD shipwreck? Nasty
that
Irish coast....

For god's sake look at the map!

They were found MILES from the coast.

Duncan Craig wrote:

benlizross <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message news:<402172A0.2925@ihug.co.nz>...
Doug Weller wrote:

On 4 Feb 2004 10:56:39 -0800, Duncan Craig wrote:
[SNIP]
There is another link between the Irish and Chinese, that being the Tocharians;
kilt-wearing red-headed mummies found in the Taklamakan.

That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? And still one step away from China
proper, although a close step. And we have no reason to think the
Tocharians had any contact with Ireland, do we?

Doug

The red-haired kilted mummies are all too often conflated with the
records of the Tocharian language which we find in the same area more
than 1000 years later. Tocharian is Indo-European, but has no special
connection with Celtic. And we don't know what the mummies spoke. And of
course the area in question would not be "Chinese" until...when?

Ross Clark

Well, the Ch'in established garrisons at the Jade Gate circa 230 bc.

Indicating that then (post-mummies) it was just beyond their frontier.

Nothing was
"Chinese" til then. Before, it was variously Tibetan, Uighyer,
Scythian,Hsiung Nu, etc.

And after, variously Turkic, Mongol, Chinese "protectorate" etc.
Officially a province of China since 1880-something.

There have been earlier cities found, at
Loulun and elsewhere. And indications that the Taklamakan was pretty
lush at one time.
Here is a space shuttle Synthetic Aperature Radar picture of what they
believe is a very large man-made canal in the middle of the desert.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/viewrecord?1337

Its an interesting part of the world...
a regular wild west

And since nobody but the Chinese builds cities, canals, etc etc...

Yah, OK.

Ross Clark

On 4 Feb 2004 20:38:43 -0800, Duncan Craig wrote:

Doug Weller <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message news:<exkfkkjxpzah$.xcowkev8092q$.dlg@40tude.net>...
On 4 Feb 2004 10:56:39 -0800, Duncan Craig wrote:
[SNIP]
There is another link between the Irish and Chinese, that being the Tocharians;
kilt-wearing red-headed mummies found in the Taklamakan.

That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it?
Well, there were kilt-wearing red-headed mummies found on Chinas
doorstep.
What is the 'stretch'? That there was a link? Yes, pure speculation
inspired by the article. There may be some dna studies going on, but
the idea of a Chinese Irish relationship in the archaic, or a
Tocharian-Irish, is a new one on me.
I don't know, but I'm not going to jump on the diffusionist model for
the sake of jumping. Maybe the Irish ruled the world before whiskey.

And still one step away from China
proper, although a close step. And we have no reason to think the
Tocharians had any contact with Ireland, do we?

Doug

Ok, don't rub it in, or I'll take up the torch. The Tocharians are
interesting.

Agreed. I didn't think you could be really trying to make a link.

Wish I were going to California.

Doug

"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
[]
This is on Menzies site:
"Fifty Chinese seals are in the possession of an Irish museum, dated
1200AD-1600AD, found all over SE Ireland. Scientific American magazine, May
2002 page 16. ´A paper was read before the Belfast Literary Society in
Ireland, on Chinese porcelain seals. About fifty of these have been found
there, some in deep bogs, one in a cave, others scattered about. How they
came there nobody can tell. They have inscriptions on them in the ancient
Chinese seal language, and Mr. [Rev. Dr. Karl] Gutzlaff had translated a
number of them. Each seal is a perfect cube, with the figure of a Chinese
monkey by way of a handle. It is supposed they may have been brought there
by ancient Phoenicians, but it is our opinion that they were brought there
by some of the ancient Irish tribes, who no doubt journeyed through China."
(David Upton) Could these seals have been brought here by the Chinese on
the great 1421 voyages?"

For some strange reason the actual date of the paper has been left out. :-)

BUT!

http://people.freenet.de/kompost/chinseal.htm

Pictures, a distribution map, etc. Ok, someone beat me to it. It might be
worthwhile contacting Jan Chapman, orientalist at Chester Beatty Library in
Dublin. Eric? She thinks they are early 18th century.

They could have course have been looted from a post 1600AD shipwreck? Nasty
that
Irish coast....

For god's sake look at the map!

They were found MILES from the coast.

I see what you mean Eric, that completely wrecks my theory, well spotted....
unless perhaps someone picked them up off the beach and walked inland with them?
No, too ridiculous, no evidence for that at all...

"Doug Weller" <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message
news:upu3mquoeexv.1gpcu0oquefev.dlg@40tude.net...
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 08:59:06 +1300, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:55:35 +0000, Doug Weller
dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote:

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:57:14 +1300, Eric Stevens wrote:

I've found it and I'me emabarassed. It was I
Well, that's a good authority as far as I'm concerned :-)

You beat me to it. It's worth reading the whole thread:

http://tinyurl.com/2dt9v

I'm bothered by the apparently random nature of the finds -- 'some in deep
bogs, one in a cave, others scattered about'. But all (about 50) almost
identical. And apparently none found since. You ask what they were and
how they got there -- a very good question. I want to know what feasible
scenarios would explain the variety of places where they were found and the
lack of any reported finds since. I can't think of one that matches the
description of where they were found.

Neither can I but I am handicapped by being totally ignorant of the
locations and geography of where they were found. I would also like to
know what happened to the artifacts. Do they still exist? Has their
nature been properly established? Are there any Dublin residents
reading this thread?

Eric Stevens

This is on Menzies site:
"Fifty Chinese seals are in the possession of an Irish museum, dated
1200AD-1600AD, found all over SE Ireland. Scientific American magazine, May
2002 page 16. ´A paper was read before the Belfast Literary Society in
Ireland, on Chinese porcelain seals. About fifty of these have been found
there, some in deep bogs, one in a cave, others scattered about. How they
came there nobody can tell. They have inscriptions on them in the ancient
Chinese seal language, and Mr. [Rev. Dr. Karl] Gutzlaff had translated a
number of them. Each seal is a perfect cube, with the figure of a Chinese
monkey by way of a handle. It is supposed they may have been brought there
by ancient Phoenicians, but it is our opinion that they were brought there
by some of the ancient Irish tribes, who no doubt journeyed through China."
(David Upton) Could these seals have been brought here by the Chinese on
the great 1421 voyages?"

For some strange reason the actual date of the paper has been left out. :-)

BUT!

http://people.freenet.de/kompost/chinseal.htm

Pictures, a distribution map, etc. Ok, someone beat me to it. It might be
worthwhile contacting Jan Chapman, orientalist at Chester Beatty Library in
Dublin. Eric? She thinks they are early 18th century.

They could have course have been looted from a post 1600AD shipwreck? Nasty that
Irish coast....

Cheers
Martin

British ships could not at that time have fished in the waters off
Iceland without the risk of being taken as pirates and the crew hanged
(such were the penalties for fishing without a license) and it is more
lilely they were indeed fishing the Grand Banks.

Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
news:<edkq10ptal3p6rbmes2c016u4tor18lmtc@4ax.com>...

British ships could not at that time have fished in the waters off
Iceland without the risk of being taken as pirates and the crew hanged
(such were the penalties for fishing without a license) and it is more
lilely they were indeed fishing the Grand Banks.

Well, the English do not seem to have attempted to fish in the waters
off Iceland until 1412. The Danish and Germans were somewhat
powerless to stop that, and there certainly was not a great risk of
being hanged. This did not change until after 1467, and the first
"cod war".

Duncan Craig wrote:

benlizross <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message news:<402172A0.2925@ihug.co.nz>...
Doug Weller wrote:

On 4 Feb 2004 10:56:39 -0800, Duncan Craig wrote:
[SNIP]
There is another link between the Irish and Chinese, that being the Tocharians;
kilt-wearing red-headed mummies found in the Taklamakan.

That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? And still one step away from China
proper, although a close step. And we have no reason to think the
Tocharians had any contact with Ireland, do we?

Doug

The red-haired kilted mummies are all too often conflated with the
records of the Tocharian language which we find in the same area more
than 1000 years later. Tocharian is Indo-European, but has no special
connection with Celtic. And we don't know what the mummies spoke. And of
course the area in question would not be "Chinese" until...when?

Ross Clark

Well, the Ch'in established garrisons at the Jade Gate circa 230 bc.

Indicating that then (post-mummies) it was just beyond their frontier.

Nothing was
"Chinese" til then. Before, it was variously Tibetan, Uighyer,
Scythian,Hsiung Nu, etc.

And after, variously Turkic, Mongol, Chinese "protectorate" etc.
Officially a province of China since 1880-something.

There have been earlier cities found, at
Loulun and elsewhere. And indications that the Taklamakan was pretty
lush at one time.
Here is a space shuttle Synthetic Aperature Radar picture of what they
believe is a very large man-made canal in the middle of the desert.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/viewrecord?1337

Its an interesting part of the world...
a regular wild west

And since nobody but the Chinese builds cities, canals, etc etc...

Yah, OK.

Ross Clark

benlizross <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:<40221AF9.1C91@ihug.co.nz>...
Duncan Craig wrote:

benlizross <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:<402172A0.2925@ihug.co.nz>...
Doug Weller wrote:

On 4 Feb 2004 10:56:39 -0800, Duncan Craig wrote:
[SNIP]
There is another link between the Irish and Chinese, that being
the Tocharians;
kilt-wearing red-headed mummies found in the Taklamakan.

That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? And still one step away from
China
proper, although a close step. And we have no reason to think the
Tocharians had any contact with Ireland, do we?

Doug

The red-haired kilted mummies are all too often conflated with the
records of the Tocharian language which we find in the same area
more
than 1000 years later. Tocharian is Indo-European, but has no
special
connection with Celtic. And we don't know what the mummies spoke.
And of
course the area in question would not be "Chinese" until...when?

Ross Clark

Well, the Ch'in established garrisons at the Jade Gate circa 230 bc.

Indicating that then (post-mummies) it was just beyond their frontier.

Nothing was
"Chinese" til then. Before, it was variously Tibetan, Uighyer,
Scythian,Hsiung Nu, etc.

And after, variously Turkic, Mongol, Chinese "protectorate" etc.
Officially a province of China since 1880-something.

There have been earlier cities found, at
Loulun and elsewhere. And indications that the Taklamakan was pretty
lush at one time.
Here is a space shuttle Synthetic Aperature Radar picture of what they
believe is a very large man-made canal in the middle of the desert.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/viewrecord?1337

Its an interesting part of the world...
a regular wild west

And since nobody but the Chinese builds cities, canals, etc etc...

Yah, OK.

Ross Clark

I wasn't inferring that they were Chinese. More likely Harrapan.

Duncan Craig

One thing Menzies hasn't mentioned are the chinese figurines found in
an Irish bog some time in the 18th century. I've been trying to look
up details without success but they were mentioned in this news group
possibly five years ago.