 |
|
| Science Forum Index » Logic Forum » Question to supporters of Intelligent Design |
|
Page 2 of 3 Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next |
|
| Author |
Message |
| stoney |
 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:45 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 17:42:41 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
[quote:a1a8833393]
"AbhiEJeet" <AbhiEJeet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1140358742.647496.138750@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
To develope intelligent design, god must think. To think, thinking
mechanism must exist first. But since god created everything, thinking
mechanism can not exist prior to him.
Now to create thinking mechanism, god must think.
But how can he think without thinking mechanism, eh?
Actually Id be going simpler
If god designed us, why is it such a crap design?
[/quote:a1a8833393]
Terminal incompetance and malevolence.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Johannes Werner |
| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:25 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Am 19 Feb 2006 06:19:02 -0800 schrieb AbhiEJeet:
[quote:b561c58ced]To develope intelligent design, god must think. To think, thinking
mechanism must exist first. But since god created everything, thinking
mechanism can not exist prior to him.
Now to create thinking mechanism, god must think.
But how can he think without thinking mechanism, eh?
[/quote:b561c58ced]
The real question is: "When" did God create time?
One cannot argument with "must have been before", when there is no time or
another relation (structure) wich defines "before".
Thus God could have created time, thought, the own existenz, the wish to
craete, the plan of creation, etc. in the very same moment (at timepoint 0)
without need of further constructions. The real problem of argumentation
about God is, that peaple allways try to fit God into the barriers of time,
wich is per definitionem simply not possible.
J.W.
PS: No, I'm far of being a creationist.
PPS: Yes, I should improve my english skills. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Cheeze |
| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:40 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Johannes Werner wrote:
[quote:cfd72573c7]Am 19 Feb 2006 06:19:02 -0800 schrieb AbhiEJeet:
To develope intelligent design, god must think. To think, thinking
mechanism must exist first. But since god created everything, thinking
mechanism can not exist prior to him.
Now to create thinking mechanism, god must think.
But how can he think without thinking mechanism, eh?
The real question is: "When" did God create time?
One cannot argument with "must have been before", when there is no time or
another relation (structure) wich defines "before".
Thus God could have created time, thought, the own existenz, the wish to
craete, the plan of creation, etc. in the very same moment (at timepoint 0)
without need of further constructions. The real problem of argumentation
about God is, that peaple allways try to fit God into the barriers of time,
wich is per definitionem simply not possible.
J.W.
PS: No, I'm far of being a creationist.
PPS: Yes, I should improve my english skills.
[/quote:cfd72573c7]
Who says the cause must always be before the effect? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| kathryn |
| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:15 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:l1dnv1dcqvl94u5on2ngb22r2os12buq0g@4ax.com...
[quote:861302ff55]On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 17:42:41 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com
wrote in alt.atheism
"AbhiEJeet" <AbhiEJeet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1140358742.647496.138750@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
To develope intelligent design, god must think. To think, thinking
mechanism must exist first. But since god created everything, thinking
mechanism can not exist prior to him.
Now to create thinking mechanism, god must think.
But how can he think without thinking mechanism, eh?
Actually Id be going simpler
If god designed us, why is it such a crap design?
Terminal incompetance and malevolence.
[/quote:861302ff55]
I was just thinking of post partum depression - the kind that develops into
full blown psychosis....surely that's a bit of a design flaw. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Arno Nymph |
| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:18 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Am 22 Feb 2006 01:40:24 -0800 schrieb Cheeze:
[quote:49143188fb]Johannes Werner wrote:
Am 19 Feb 2006 06:19:02 -0800 schrieb AbhiEJeet:
To develope intelligent design, god must think. To think, thinking
mechanism must exist first. But since god created everything, thinking
mechanism can not exist prior to him.
Now to create thinking mechanism, god must think.
But how can he think without thinking mechanism, eh?
The real question is: "When" did God create time?
One cannot argument with "must have been before", when there is no time or
another relation (structure) wich defines "before".
Thus God could have created time, thought, the own existenz, the wish to
craete, the plan of creation, etc. in the very same moment (at timepoint 0)
without need of further constructions. The real problem of argumentation
about God is, that peaple allways try to fit God into the barriers of time,
wich is per definitionem simply not possible.
J.W.
PS: No, I'm far of being a creationist.
PPS: Yes, I should improve my english skills.
Who says the cause must always be before the effect?
[/quote:49143188fb]
True. I slipped on my own warning:-)
Thank God it doesn't matter. God could think he would have needed time to
think and just create them before... Sounds cool. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| stoney |
| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:27 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:25:35 +0100, Johannes Werner
<johannes.werner@informatik.stud.uni-erlangen.de> wrote in alt.atheism
[quote:f0c91cf0f0]Am 19 Feb 2006 06:19:02 -0800 schrieb AbhiEJeet:
To develope intelligent design, god must think. To think, thinking
mechanism must exist first. But since god created everything, thinking
mechanism can not exist prior to him.
Now to create thinking mechanism, god must think.
But how can he think without thinking mechanism, eh?
The real question is: "When" did God create time?
One cannot argument with "must have been before", when there is no time or
another relation (structure) wich defines "before".
[/quote:f0c91cf0f0]
Where time doesn't exist there's only stasis.
[quote:f0c91cf0f0]Thus God could have created time, thought, the own existenz, the wish to
craete, the plan of creation, etc. in the very same moment (at timepoint 0)
without need of further constructions. The real problem of argumentation
about God is, that peaple allways try to fit God into the barriers of time,
wich is per definitionem simply not possible.
[/quote:f0c91cf0f0]
'God' is fiction.
[quote:f0c91cf0f0]J.W.
PS: No, I'm far of being a creationist.
PPS: Yes, I should improve my english skills.
[/quote:f0c91cf0f0]
Your English is fine, the points you are making are understood.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Johannes Werner |
| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:19 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Am Wed, 22 Feb 2006 07:27:04 -0800 schrieb stoney:
[quote:7f65323f71]On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:25:35 +0100, Johannes Werner
johannes.werner@informatik.stud.uni-erlangen.de> wrote in alt.atheism
Am 19 Feb 2006 06:19:02 -0800 schrieb AbhiEJeet:
To develope intelligent design, god must think. To think, thinking
mechanism must exist first. But since god created everything, thinking
mechanism can not exist prior to him.
Now to create thinking mechanism, god must think.
But how can he think without thinking mechanism, eh?
The real question is: "When" did God create time?
One cannot argument with "must have been before", when there is no time or
another relation (structure) wich defines "before".
Where time doesn't exist there's only stasis.
Sorry, I cannot see why.[/quote:7f65323f71]
[quote:7f65323f71]
Your English is fine, the points you are making are understood.
Thank you![/quote:7f65323f71] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| prag |
| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:51 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
AbhiEJeet wrote:
[quote:6141902272]To develope intelligent design, god must think.
[/quote:6141902272]
That premise is false.
Trial and error is necessary to any complex design effort. So, of
course, it
is an intelligent strategy. But god does not have to think to imploy
it.
Darwin showed that the origin of the species was possible by mere trial
and error, an intelligent design technique.
[quote:6141902272]To think, thinking
mechanism must exist first. But since god created everything, thinking
mechanism can not exist prior to him.
Now to create thinking mechanism, god must think.
But how can he think without thinking mechanism, eh?[/quote:6141902272] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| stoney |
| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:06 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:15:01 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
[quote:569aedbeb0]
"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:l1dnv1dcqvl94u5on2ngb22r2os12buq0g@4ax.com...
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 17:42:41 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com
wrote in alt.atheism
"AbhiEJeet" <AbhiEJeet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1140358742.647496.138750@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
To develope intelligent design, god must think. To think, thinking
mechanism must exist first. But since god created everything, thinking
mechanism can not exist prior to him.
Now to create thinking mechanism, god must think.
But how can he think without thinking mechanism, eh?
Actually Id be going simpler
If god designed us, why is it such a crap design?
Terminal incompetance and malevolence.
I was just thinking of post partum depression - the kind that develops into
full blown psychosis....surely that's a bit of a design flaw.
[/quote:569aedbeb0]
Post partum depression from a dribbly burrito fart? But then 'God' is
an asshole and anything's possible......
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| AKA Gray Asphalt |
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:34 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
I am going to argue that one reason for the persistence of the idea of free
will is the necessity to do illogical things to avoid the trap of being
dictated to by the limited capabilities of logic. One of logic's faults is
in not seeing its own inappropriateness in many cases. This is one, imo.
And who said God created himself? According to religions God created the
universe but has always existed Himself. That's my understanding of the
doctrine.
"AbhiEJeet" <AbhiEJeet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1140358742.647496.138750@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[quote:29a5f29b33]To develope intelligent design, god must think. To think, thinking
mechanism must exist first. But since god created everything, thinking
mechanism can not exist prior to him.
Now to create thinking mechanism, god must think.
But how can he think without thinking mechanism, eh?
[/quote:29a5f29b33] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| AKA Gray Asphalt |
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:37 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Is it wise to say that either something has always existed or something came
from 'nothing'? So either the universe or God has existed for all time or
the universe of God came from nothing. Then there is the fact that it could
be entirely different than anything a human can imagine which should piss
off those who think logic is God.
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:ujjhv1lnlb7gvu6nlfos4ik4rc0tthhv07@4ax.com...
[quote:4c57ac81e8]On 19 Feb 2006 10:31:17 -0800, in alt.atheism , "Bret Cahill"
BretCahill@aol.com> in
1140373877.866303.65830@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
All creationism has the problem of the origin of the creator.
God, by His very definition, is The Singularity. That's why He didn't
need to be created.
Sorry, but defining it does not make it so.
Moreover, the Big Bang raises similar questions like Who created the
Big Bang?
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"[/quote:4c57ac81e8] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| AKA Gray Asphalt |
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:42 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
If the universe is singular then does it include thought, the past, love,
hope, human dignity, the dream of world peace? If you say yes and call these
things simple manifestations of physics and chemistry then your philosophy
of life sucks because you are reducing the things that matter much more than
logic to a fleeting catagory to be ignored while someone chases the God of
science and logic which seems to pay little in return if the price is the
discounting of all the things that science should serve, like the betterment
of mankind which is just an idea, an epiphenomenon in the giant wonderland
of physics.
"quibbler" <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1e62987ea183fbd5989795@news.readfreenews.net...
[quote:81d2fb72af]In article <1140373877.866303.65830@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
BretCahill@aol.com says...
All creationism has the problem of the origin of the creator.
God, by His very definition, is The Singularity
No, you've simply attempted to perform a legal change of name upon the
universe. The universe is the singularity. There is no indication that
the singularity was sentience or wanted its son to die on a piece of wood
14 billion years in the future.
. That's why He didn't
need to be created.
No, that's why the universe didn't need to be created. Because it always
existed. The singularity was just a highly degenerate form of the
universe which could not exist in that unstable state indefinitely.
Moreover, the Big Bang raises similar questions like Who created the
Big Bang?
You don't need a little man running on a treadmill to make things happen
and you don't need a creator for the "big bang". I've already explained
that the concept of "creation" is incoherent before time (and therefore
space) existed, since creating assumes causal events which have to
precede effects in time. Thus, there could be no meaningful "cause" or
"creation" of the universe from a singularity. Why do you think that
events can't simply happen without some other event called a "cause"
preceding them? Causality is a useless model for describing the beginning
of a universe, as it makes no sense and explains nothing.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins[/quote:81d2fb72af] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Brian Fletcher |
| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:38 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
That "something" always existed, and is always changing form.
It also cannot be beond anything that man can imagine, because there is no
limit to mans imagination.
If you like, God imagined man's imagination.
Imagine that ! :-)
BOfL
"AKA Gray Asphalt" <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote in message
news:y4_mg.273$Gv.35@fed1read09...
[quote:6d6c9c33c7]
Is it wise to say that either something has always existed or something
came from 'nothing'? So either the universe or God has existed for all
time or the universe of God came from nothing. Then there is the fact that
it could be entirely different than anything a human can imagine which
should piss off those who think logic is God.
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:ujjhv1lnlb7gvu6nlfos4ik4rc0tthhv07@4ax.com...
On 19 Feb 2006 10:31:17 -0800, in alt.atheism , "Bret Cahill"
BretCahill@aol.com> in
1140373877.866303.65830@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
All creationism has the problem of the origin of the creator.
God, by His very definition, is The Singularity. That's why He didn't
need to be created.
Sorry, but defining it does not make it so.
Moreover, the Big Bang raises similar questions like Who created the
Big Bang?
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
[/quote:6d6c9c33c7] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| AKA Gray Asphalt |
| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:02 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Where did you get the idea that man's imagination is unlimited? There is so
much evidence to the contrary that I don't want to be silly enough to give
examples. Are you talking about something other than the regular definition
of imaginaton?
"Brian Fletcher" <brianf88@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:38cng.15405$ap3.6825@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
[quote:1ce829a772]That "something" always existed, and is always changing form.
It also cannot be beond anything that man can imagine, because there is no
limit to mans imagination.
If you like, God imagined man's imagination.
Imagine that ! :-)
BOfL
"AKA Gray Asphalt" <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote in message
news:y4_mg.273$Gv.35@fed1read09...
Is it wise to say that either something has always existed or something
came from 'nothing'? So either the universe or God has existed for all
time or the universe of God came from nothing. Then there is the fact
that it could be entirely different than anything a human can imagine
which should piss off those who think logic is God.
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:ujjhv1lnlb7gvu6nlfos4ik4rc0tthhv07@4ax.com...
On 19 Feb 2006 10:31:17 -0800, in alt.atheism , "Bret Cahill"
BretCahill@aol.com> in
1140373877.866303.65830@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
All creationism has the problem of the origin of the creator.
God, by His very definition, is The Singularity. That's why He didn't
need to be created.
Sorry, but defining it does not make it so.
Moreover, the Big Bang raises similar questions like Who created the
Big Bang?
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
[/quote:1ce829a772] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Brian Fletcher |
| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:43 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Yes !
BOfL
"AKA Gray Asphalt" <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote in message
news:PPong.390$Gv.107@fed1read09...
[quote:a358826357]
Where did you get the idea that man's imagination is unlimited? There is
so much evidence to the contrary that I don't want to be silly enough to
give examples. Are you talking about something other than the regular
definition of imaginaton?
"Brian Fletcher" <brianf88@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:38cng.15405$ap3.6825@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
That "something" always existed, and is always changing form.
It also cannot be beond anything that man can imagine, because there is
no limit to mans imagination.
If you like, God imagined man's imagination.
Imagine that ! :-)
BOfL
"AKA Gray Asphalt" <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote in message
news:y4_mg.273$Gv.35@fed1read09...
Is it wise to say that either something has always existed or something
came from 'nothing'? So either the universe or God has existed for all
time or the universe of God came from nothing. Then there is the fact
that it could be entirely different than anything a human can imagine
which should piss off those who think logic is God.
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:ujjhv1lnlb7gvu6nlfos4ik4rc0tthhv07@4ax.com...
On 19 Feb 2006 10:31:17 -0800, in alt.atheism , "Bret Cahill"
BretCahill@aol.com> in
1140373877.866303.65830@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
All creationism has the problem of the origin of the creator.
God, by His very definition, is The Singularity. That's why He didn't
need to be created.
Sorry, but defining it does not make it so.
Moreover, the Big Bang raises similar questions like Who created the
Big Bang?
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
[/quote:a358826357] |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
The time now is Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:29 pm
|
|