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| Mason C |
 Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:26 am |
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I don't mind going on the record. I'm with Chavez.
Venezuela is an oil-rich nation with its people in
poverty. The free market has allowed the oil
companies (and their customers: us) to steal
the nation's resource.
Nigeria needs a Chavez.
Saudi Arabia on the other hand need lots of
high-level vasectomies.
Mason C |
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| Les Cargill |
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:27 pm |
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Mason C wrote:
[quote:dd0f23d0ac]I don't mind going on the record. I'm with Chavez.
Venezuela is an oil-rich nation with its people in
poverty. The free market has allowed the oil
companies (and their customers: us) to steal
the nation's resource.
[/quote:dd0f23d0ac]
Tsk.
Chavez will eventually isolate Venezuela from
the global capital markets. I'm assuming that's
a bad thing for the moment.
It'll become "cubanized". A banana republic
is still a banana republic, even if the
"bananas" are oil barrels.
I agree - Venezuela has a problem. Why don't
they just do what the Norwegians do?
[quote:dd0f23d0ac]Nigeria needs a Chavez.
[/quote:dd0f23d0ac]
Nigeria needs enforceable contracts and
rule of law.
I won't deny the importance of charismatic
leadership in establishing these things, but
if Chavez gains as much power as he's reaching
for, he has little choice but to become
El Presidente For Life - assuming he wishes
to avoid martyrdom.
I see no evidence that he's a Thomas
Jefferson level player. Just a guy who
can use America bashing to good effect.
[quote:dd0f23d0ac]Saudi Arabia on the other hand need lots of
high-level vasectomies.
[/quote:dd0f23d0ac]
That won't work there. Royalty in those regions derives
from lineage. Modern politics beyond kingdoms has had
one hell of a bad track record.
Saudi needs to become a standalone state, not
a satellite of whatever country affiliation the principal
oil companies working Saudi happen to be from.
Saudi needs its own universities. This is probably
not very likely. I find it ironic - we expect
the Islamics to pop up with an intellectual tradition
to stiffen the un-rigorous influence of
Fundamentalism, yet that took a thousand years for us.
Of course, Jimmy Carter told them they needed something
similar, and the result was the Taliban.
[quote:dd0f23d0ac]Mason C
[/quote:dd0f23d0ac]
--
Les Cargill |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:02 pm |
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On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:26:01 GMT, Mason C <masonc2@earthlink.net>
wrote:
[quote:3d63215801]I don't mind going on the record. I'm with Chavez.
[/quote:3d63215801]
Chavez is just a man, and an apparently rather fallible one. I'm with
Chavez when Chavez is for justice. But IMO he is far too chummy with
Castro for justice to be very high on his list of priorities. Being
opposed to evil US policies in Latin America is not enough to make him
a good guy. The enemy of my enemy might just be a guy who is good at
making enemies.
[quote:3d63215801]Venezuela is an oil-rich nation with its people in
poverty. The free market has allowed the oil
companies (and their customers: us) to steal
the nation's resource.
[/quote:3d63215801]
If you define the privilege of owning natural resources as being part
of a "free" narket.
[quote:3d63215801]Nigeria needs a Chavez.
[/quote:3d63215801]
IMO Nigeria would eat a Chavez alive.
-- Roy L |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:07 pm |
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On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 19:27:51 GMT, Les Cargill <lNOcargill@cfl.Arr.com>
wrote:
[quote:070bc8f945]I agree - Venezuela has a problem. Why don't
they just do what the Norwegians do?
[/quote:070bc8f945]
The culture makes it imposible.
[quote:070bc8f945]Nigeria needs a Chavez.
Nigeria needs enforceable contracts and
rule of law.
[/quote:070bc8f945]
Those are results, not causes.
[quote:070bc8f945]I see no evidence that he's a Thomas
Jefferson level player. Just a guy who
can use America bashing to good effect.
[/quote:070bc8f945]
I'm inclined to agree. Much as it is nice to see a breath of fresh
air in Latin American politics, Chavez has developed too much of the
aroma of Putin for my liking.
-- Roy L |
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| Quirk |
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:24 pm |
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Les Cargill wrote:
[quote:42502197ed]Chavez will eventually isolate Venezuela from
the global capital markets.
[/quote:42502197ed]
[...]
[quote:42502197ed]I won't deny the importance of charismatic
leadership in establishing these things, but
if Chavez gains as much power as he's reaching
for, he has little choice but to become
El Presidente For Life - assuming he wishes
to avoid martyrdom.
[/quote:42502197ed]
Hello Less, do you have some reasoning to support that actions taken by
Chavez will isolate Venezuala, and that Chavez is doing anything
unusual or untoward regarding "reaching for power?"
References to specific actions taken by Chavez in these directions
along with minimal citations would be much appreciated.
While these aleogations are often made, they are infrequently
substantiated.
Regards. |
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| Les Cargill |
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:12 pm |
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Quirk wrote:
[quote:6e568849de]Les Cargill wrote:
Chavez will eventually isolate Venezuela from
the global capital markets.
[...]
I won't deny the importance of charismatic
leadership in establishing these things, but
if Chavez gains as much power as he's reaching
for, he has little choice but to become
El Presidente For Life - assuming he wishes
to avoid martyrdom.
Hello Less, do you have some reasoning to support that actions taken by
[/quote:6e568849de]
That's Les. One 's'. Quirrrrk. :)
[quote:6e568849de]Chavez will isolate Venezuala, and that Chavez is doing anything
unusual or untoward regarding "reaching for power?"
[/quote:6e568849de]
He's making nationalist noises, and playing on the spectre
of previous nationalizations of oil in South America/
Central America/Mexico.
If the supply of oil is "managed" by the Chavez regime,
then future investment capital in the area will be
nonexistent. That's an isolating thing.
Now, if he's a Tito-level figure ( who used now-Serbian
oil resources for leverege with Stalin ), then my
hat's off to him. He's a Player, then. But I doubt
it.
[quote:6e568849de]References to specific actions taken by Chavez in these directions
along with minimal citations would be much appreciated.
[/quote:6e568849de]
CNN, Oct 20th - "warns against invasion". Huh? The U.S. is
going to invade? Sez who? Pat Rrrrrrrrobertson? Chavez says,
in effect that "he has evidence of a plot to invade".
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/10/20/venezuela.chavez.ap/
It's clear he's raising the threat of invasion
for his own political gain. That implies he's
operating in a political mode *like* a Castro -
"I'll keep the Yanqui off you, folks".
Here is his interview with Ted Koppel.
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/International/story?id=1134098&page=1
Hugo Chavez is in a position no nobody should envy.
The U.S. has treated South America as its backyard
for a long time. But it is laughable that anyone
could consider an invasion threat plausible.
The rest is projection based on the inevitable
fate of all populist leaders in South American
history.
[quote:6e568849de]While these aleogations are often made, they are infrequently
substantiated.
Regards.
--[/quote:6e568849de]
Les Cargill |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:40 pm |
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On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 03:12:58 GMT, Les Cargill <lNOcargill@cfl.Arr.com>
wrote:
[quote:a47ced5462]Quirk wrote:
Les Cargill wrote:
Chavez will isolate Venezuala, and that Chavez is doing anything
unusual or untoward regarding "reaching for power?"
He's making nationalist noises, and playing on the spectre
of previous nationalizations of oil in South America/
Central America/Mexico.
[/quote:a47ced5462]
That sounds more like "reaching to blunt US colonialism."
[quote:a47ced5462]If the supply of oil is "managed" by the Chavez regime,
then future investment capital in the area will be
nonexistent.
[/quote:a47ced5462]
That is complete garbage, as proved by every oil exporting country
where oil is "managed" by the government, like the UK, Norway, Mexico,
Indonesia, etc.
[quote:a47ced5462]Now, if he's a Tito-level figure ( who used now-Serbian
oil resources for leverege with Stalin ), then my
hat's off to him. He's a Player, then. But I doubt
it.
[/quote:a47ced5462]
Chavez is not a Tito (Tito had the street cred of having been a leader
of his country's resistance during the war, like Mao and Kim), but IMO
he is definitely a player. The jury is still out on what kind of
player he is, but he clearly has superior principle, intellect, vision
and moral fibre compared to other Latin American leaders.
[quote:a47ced5462]References to specific actions taken by Chavez in these directions
along with minimal citations would be much appreciated.
CNN, Oct 20th - "warns against invasion". Huh? The U.S. is
going to invade? Sez who? Pat Rrrrrrrrobertson? Chavez says,
in effect that "he has evidence of a plot to invade".
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/10/20/venezuela.chavez.ap/
[/quote:a47ced5462]
In fact, it is well known that the Pentagon does have such a plan, and
that Bush is extremely hostile towards him, to the extent of having
supported an attempted coup against him despite the fact that he has
greater democratic legitimacy than pretty much any other leader in
Latin America. Whether that constitutes a "plot" to invade is another
matter. But it is an insult to our intelligence to claim that his
invasion warning was a total fabrication.
[quote:a47ced5462]It's clear he's raising the threat of invasion
for his own political gain. That implies he's
operating in a political mode *like* a Castro -
"I'll keep the Yanqui off you, folks".
[/quote:a47ced5462]
Right. Like Castro with his hoked-up fable about Yanqui invaders
landing at the Bay of Pigs, what a laugh! Pure political posturing.
As if anyone would believe such a ridiculous tale! Or that paranoid
pantaloon Salvador Allende, going on about imagined CIA plots to
overthrow him, that one shoulda been on Saturday Night Live! Or
Manuel Noriega, claiming the USA would actually _invade_Panama_, just
to get him! Pure fantasy. Where do they get that stuff, huh? All
these paranoid conspiracy kooks with their sightings of black
helicopters and questions about those quiet, athletic men in crew
cuts, sunglasses, and suits with bulges under the arms...
[quote:a47ced5462]Here is his interview with Ted Koppel.
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/International/story?id=1134098&page=1
[/quote:a47ced5462]
And how is that in any way threatening or sinister?
[quote:a47ced5462]Hugo Chavez is in a position no nobody should envy.
The U.S. has treated South America as its backyard
for a long time. But it is laughable that anyone
could consider an invasion threat plausible.
[/quote:a47ced5462]
Right. The US would never be so brazen, nor so foolish, as to invade
a major oil-producing country in a politically unstable part of the
world on a thin and obviously fabricated pretext, in order to unseat a
leader based on the President's personal animosity towards him.
Naaaahhhh... Never happen.
[quote:a47ced5462]The rest is projection based on the inevitable
fate of all populist leaders in South American
history.
[/quote:a47ced5462]
Like Allende...?
-- Roy L |
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| Les Cargill |
| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:04 pm |
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royls@telus.net wrote:
[quote:797b8de6cc]On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 03:12:58 GMT, Les Cargill <lNOcargill@cfl.Arr.com
wrote:
Quirk wrote:
Les Cargill wrote:
Chavez will isolate Venezuala, and that Chavez is doing anything
unusual or untoward regarding "reaching for power?"
He's making nationalist noises, and playing on the spectre
of previous nationalizations of oil in South America/
Central America/Mexico.
That sounds more like "reaching to blunt US colonialism."
[/quote:797b8de6cc]
That's patently ridiculous. *What* US colonialism?
[quote:797b8de6cc]If the supply of oil is "managed" by the Chavez regime,
then future investment capital in the area will be
nonexistent.
That is complete garbage, as proved by every oil exporting country
where oil is "managed" by the government, like the UK, Norway, Mexico,
Indonesia, etc.
[/quote:797b8de6cc]
I mean "manage" as in "nationalize".
[quote:797b8de6cc]Now, if he's a Tito-level figure ( who used now-Serbian
oil resources for leverege with Stalin ), then my
hat's off to him. He's a Player, then. But I doubt
it.
Chavez is not a Tito (Tito had the street cred of having been a leader
of his country's resistance during the war, like Mao and Kim), but IMO
he is definitely a player. The jury is still out on what kind of
player he is, but he clearly has superior principle, intellect, vision
and moral fibre compared to other Latin American leaders.
[/quote:797b8de6cc]
Well, that's a good thing for Venezuela.
[quote:797b8de6cc]
References to specific actions taken by Chavez in these directions
along with minimal citations would be much appreciated.
CNN, Oct 20th - "warns against invasion". Huh? The U.S. is
going to invade? Sez who? Pat Rrrrrrrrobertson? Chavez says,
in effect that "he has evidence of a plot to invade".
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/10/20/venezuela.chavez.ap/
In fact, it is well known that the Pentagon does have such a plan,
[/quote:797b8de6cc]
A plan is a peice of paper.
[quote:797b8de6cc]and
that Bush is extremely hostile towards him, to the extent of having
supported an attempted coup against him despite the fact that he has
greater democratic legitimacy than pretty much any other leader in
Latin America. Whether that constitutes a "plot" to invade is another
matter. But it is an insult to our intelligence to claim that his
invasion warning was a total fabrication.
[/quote:797b8de6cc]
Any member of the administration that "supports a coup"
against a Chavez is violating U.S. law. It's not
impossible to beleive, but it's unlikely.
Coups grow in South America like the jungle.
[quote:797b8de6cc]
It's clear he's raising the threat of invasion
for his own political gain. That implies he's
operating in a political mode *like* a Castro -
"I'll keep the Yanqui off you, folks".
Right. Like Castro with his hoked-up fable about Yanqui invaders
landing at the Bay of Pigs, what a laugh! Pure political posturing.
As if anyone would believe such a ridiculous tale! Or that paranoid
pantaloon Salvador Allende, going on about imagined CIA plots to
overthrow him, that one shoulda been on Saturday Night Live! Or
Manuel Noriega, claiming the USA would actually _invade_Panama_, just
to get him! Pure fantasy. Where do they get that stuff, huh? All
these paranoid conspiracy kooks with their sightings of black
helicopters and questions about those quiet, athletic men in crew
cuts, sunglasses, and suits with bulges under the arms...
[/quote:797b8de6cc]
This is reality, not a John LeCarre novel. Of course there's
a tradition of this in South America. But that doesn't mean
it's true *this* time.
[quote:797b8de6cc]Here is his interview with Ted Koppel.
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/International/story?id=1134098&page=1
And how is that in any way threatening or sinister?
[/quote:797b8de6cc]
It's just goofy. He makes unverified statements, with a promise
to follow on with actual evidence. Uh... right.
[quote:797b8de6cc]
Hugo Chavez is in a position no nobody should envy.
The U.S. has treated South America as its backyard
for a long time. But it is laughable that anyone
could consider an invasion threat plausible.
Right. The US would never be so brazen, nor so foolish, as to invade
a major oil-producing country in a politically unstable part of the
world on a thin and obviously fabricated pretext, in order to unseat a
leader based on the President's personal animosity towards him.
[/quote:797b8de6cc]
Actually, it's extremely unlikely. The Bush administration has
never overreacted... nah....it's a friggin *PLAN*, not a
"contract".
[quote:797b8de6cc]Naaaahhhh... Never happen.
[/quote:797b8de6cc]
Wouldn't happen without the beard of U.N. coverage, at least.
[quote:797b8de6cc]
The rest is projection based on the inevitable
fate of all populist leaders in South American
history.
Like Allende...?
[/quote:797b8de6cc]
That's so totally 1973, dude.
More like Pinochet. Don't know what it is, but South American
leaders all end up in the same bucket.
[quote:797b8de6cc]-- Roy L
--[/quote:797b8de6cc]
Les Cargill |
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| The Trucker |
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:41 pm |
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"Les Cargill" <lNOcargill@cfl.Arr.com> wrote in message
news:_Czbf.186003$xl6.93695@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
[quote:e98d6a961c]Quirk wrote:
Les Cargill wrote:
Chavez will eventually isolate Venezuela from
the global capital markets.
[...]
I won't deny the importance of charismatic
leadership in establishing these things, but
if Chavez gains as much power as he's reaching
for, he has little choice but to become
El Presidente For Life - assuming he wishes
to avoid martyrdom.
Hello Less, do you have some reasoning to support that actions taken by
That's Les. One 's'. Quirrrrk. :)
Chavez will isolate Venezuala, and that Chavez is doing anything
unusual or untoward regarding "reaching for power?"
He's making nationalist noises, and playing on the spectre
of previous nationalizations of oil in South America/
Central America/Mexico.
[/quote:e98d6a961c]
Gee... Seems to me that he is playing a song of
Venezuela freedom from George Pinocchio bush
and the prancing pigs of the Fed, IMF and WTO.
If one has oil then one has no need of Pinocchio
bucks.
[quote:e98d6a961c]If the supply of oil is "managed" by the Chavez regime,
then future investment capital in the area will be
nonexistent. That's an isolating thing.
[/quote:e98d6a961c]
I wonder what you mean by "investment capital",
but I think I know what you mean and so does Chavez.
The Venezuelan people will be a lot better off in
"isolation" than they will have been ceding the
signorage of American bucks to the likes
of Pinocchio.
[quote:e98d6a961c]Now, if he's a Tito-level figure ( who used now-Serbian
oil resources for leverege with Stalin ), then my
hat's off to him. He's a Player, then. But I doubt
it.
[/quote:e98d6a961c]
What you call isolationism is actually FREEDOM.
[quote:e98d6a961c]References to specific actions taken by Chavez in these directions
along with minimal citations would be much appreciated.
CNN, Oct 20th - "warns against invasion". Huh? The U.S. is
going to invade? Sez who? Pat Rrrrrrrrobertson? Chavez says,
in effect that "he has evidence of a plot to invade".
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/10/20/venezuela.chavez.ap/
It's clear he's raising the threat of invasion
for his own political gain. That implies he's
operating in a political mode *like* a Castro -
"I'll keep the Yanqui off you, folks".
[/quote:e98d6a961c]
Or like the Pinocchio regime and their orange alert
crap.
[quote:e98d6a961c]Here is his interview with Ted Koppel.
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/International/story?id=1134098&page=1
Hugo Chavez is in a position no nobody should envy.
The U.S. has treated South America as its backyard
for a long time. But it is laughable that anyone
could consider an invasion threat plausible.
The rest is projection based on the inevitable
fate of all populist leaders in South American
history.
[/quote:e98d6a961c]
Keep on hoping and praying that Chavez will simply
"go away". It is a pretty safe bet that unless he is
even more careful that Castro he will soon be assassinated.
Maybe his plane will crash like other planes have
crashed. Other than that, he ain't goin away any
time soon.
[quote:e98d6a961c]While these aleogations are often made, they are infrequently
substantiated.
Regards.
--
Les Cargill
[/quote:e98d6a961c]
Like it or not, Chavez has oil and he intends to use it.
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org |
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| Les Cargill |
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:34 pm |
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Guest
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Quirk wrote:
[quote:d6a3e68c9a]Les Cargill wrote:
snip
I'm quite disapointed to learn you are a shill Les. I really thought
you where an actual credible contributer here, You had me fooled for
quite some time.
[/quote:d6a3e68c9a]
I don't have anything to add. I'm not a professional here - I'm
not gonna spend any time researching this beyond what I want to
read to satisfy my own curiosity.
[quote:d6a3e68c9a]Unless you suddenly introduce some specific actions that Chavez should
not have taken into this discusion, as a basis for your allegations,
this will be my last contribution in this thread.
[/quote:d6a3e68c9a]
What is this about "actions" - I'm simply projecting a line based
on previous patterns with respect to South American politics.
Look, Chavez is *required* to consolidate a power base to
lead in Venezuela. This is not a bad thing. What will be a Bad
Thing will be if/when it flies apart on him because division in
politics works differently in South America.
When the local reactionaries work up resistance to the guy, his
life will become much more difficult. Or when he has to make
deals with some of the warlords, or the price of oil falls again
and there's unemployment...
But we don't really have space for a full exposition on the
subject. I can recommend some Graham Greene for a sort of
color and shape thing - I'm working through "The Power
and the Glory" now.
[quote:d6a3e68c9a]As I said, I thought you actually had some interesting info to provide,
I did not start this to debate the party-line with a disingenious
shill.
[/quote:d6a3e68c9a]
I'm none of party, line nor shill. Merely a semi-interested observer.
--
Les Cargill |
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| Jim Blair |
| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:28 pm |
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Guest
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"Mason C" <masonc2@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bcmrm11bkn18hro0uf6u4jhham2j61mqc2@4ax.com...
[quote:8315d639de]I don't mind going on the record. I'm with Chavez.
[/quote:8315d639de]
......
[quote:8315d639de]
Nigeria needs a Chavez.
[/quote:8315d639de]
.....
[quote:8315d639de]Mason C
[/quote:8315d639de]
Hi,
I'll add this to my "quotes" file. It may be a good one to recall in a few
years.
,,,,,,,
_______________ooo___(_O O_)___ooo_______________
(_)
jim blair (jeblair@wisc.edu) Madison Wisconsin USA.
This message was brought to you using biodegradable
binary bits, and 100% recycled bandwidth. For a good
time call: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4834
No animals were harmed in making this post |
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| Quirk |
| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:24 pm |
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Guest
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Les Cargill wrote:
[quote:9ff97c774a]I'm doing my best to simply say "Chavez is in a difficult
situation, and mistakes could be costly to him".
[/quote:9ff97c774a]
Well if that's the case, I see nothing to disagree with.
It looked from here like you where saying that Chavez was making the
wrong choices for Venzuala's future and that he is an irrational, and
undemocratic leader, which are allegations I have heard frequently, but
never seen justified.
Regards. |
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