Hey, Bush, Kerry: Forget the zingers, try leveling with us

Oct. 13, 2004
(Laurie Roberts, "Arizona Republic" columnist)

Today, I'm coming out of the closet.

I confess. I'm one of those people scorned by political wonks and talk-radio
types alike.

In a world where everyone is so certain of their position, so sure that
their candidate can cure what ails us, I'm the one on the fence. In a world
with two types of people, those who despise George Bush and those who detest
John Kerry, I'm a citizen of the demilitarized zone, that small and
shrinking middle ground that 20 days out still hasn't decided who, if
anybody, can lead us to the promised land.

In a world where everyone is shouting, I'm the one still listening.

I am an undecided voter.

[...]

Tell me, gentlemen. Nobody in Washington has done anything to stem the flow
of immigrants illegally streaming across Arizona's border. As a result, we
are faced with dizzying costs and mounting frustrations and with Proposition
200, which will do nothing to stop illegal immigration but will be
overwhelmingly approved anyway because people are desperate for something,
anything, to be done.

What are you going to do about illegal immigration? Tell me. Please.

You want my vote? Then come and get it.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/columns/articles/1013roberts13.html

********************************************

Big political doings here in the Valley of the Sun today, as the third
presidential debate will be in Tempe (one of Phoenix's satellite cities)
tonight. I hope someone asks Roberts' question about illegal immigration,
and not just for the sake of Arizona.

-- TCF

It won't matter which candidate is elected in this election as in the

In article <O1cbd.22478$kz3.591@fed1read02>,
"The Chosen Few" <thechosenfew@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hey, Bush, Kerry: Forget the zingers, try leveling with us

Oct. 13, 2004
(Laurie Roberts, "Arizona Republic" columnist)

Today, I'm coming out of the closet.

I confess. I'm one of those people scorned by political wonks and
talk-radio
types alike.

In a world where everyone is so certain of their position, so sure that
their candidate can cure what ails us, I'm the one on the fence. In a
world
with two types of people, those who despise George Bush and those who
detest
John Kerry, I'm a citizen of the demilitarized zone, that small and
shrinking middle ground that 20 days out still hasn't decided who, if
anybody, can lead us to the promised land.

In a world where everyone is shouting, I'm the one still listening.

I am an undecided voter.

[...]

Tell me, gentlemen. Nobody in Washington has done anything to stem the
flow
of immigrants illegally streaming across Arizona's border. As a result,
we
are faced with dizzying costs and mounting frustrations and with
Proposition
200, which will do nothing to stop illegal immigration but will be
overwhelmingly approved anyway because people are desperate for
something,
anything, to be done.

What are you going to do about illegal immigration? Tell me. Please.

You want my vote? Then come and get it.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/columns/articles/1013roberts13.html

********************************************

Big political doings here in the Valley of the Sun today, as the third
presidential debate will be in Tempe (one of Phoenix's satellite cities)
tonight. I hope someone asks Roberts' question about illegal
immigration,
and not just for the sake of Arizona.

-- TCF

It won't matter which candidate is elected in this election as in the
last. This government serves the interests of the corporations who use
the illegal immigration to serve as cheap labor.

Subject: Re: "I am an undecided voter"
From: "The Chosen Few" thechosenfew@hotmail.com
Date: 10/14/2004 7:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <mPvbd.26158$kz3.21596@fed1read02


"brickbat" <brickbat@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:brickbat-A0A0F3.23144613102004@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
In article <O1cbd.22478$kz3.591@fed1read02>,
"The Chosen Few" <thechosenfew@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hey, Bush, Kerry: Forget the zingers, try leveling with us

Oct. 13, 2004
(Laurie Roberts, "Arizona Republic" columnist)

Today, I'm coming out of the closet.

I confess. I'm one of those people scorned by political wonks and
talk-radio
types alike.

In a world where everyone is so certain of their position, so sure that
their candidate can cure what ails us, I'm the one on the fence. In a
world
with two types of people, those who despise George Bush and those who
detest
John Kerry, I'm a citizen of the demilitarized zone, that small and
shrinking middle ground that 20 days out still hasn't decided who, if
anybody, can lead us to the promised land.

In a world where everyone is shouting, I'm the one still listening.

I am an undecided voter.

[...]

Tell me, gentlemen. Nobody in Washington has done anything to stem the
flow
of immigrants illegally streaming across Arizona's border. As a result,
we
are faced with dizzying costs and mounting frustrations and with
Proposition
200, which will do nothing to stop illegal immigration but will be
overwhelmingly approved anyway because people are desperate for
something,
anything, to be done.

What are you going to do about illegal immigration? Tell me. Please.

You want my vote? Then come and get it.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/columns/articles/1013roberts13.html

********************************************

Big political doings here in the Valley of the Sun today, as the third
presidential debate will be in Tempe (one of Phoenix's satellite cities)
tonight. I hope someone asks Roberts' question about illegal
immigration,
and not just for the sake of Arizona.

-- TCF

It won't matter which candidate is elected in this election as in the
last. This government serves the interests of the corporations who use
the illegal immigration to serve as cheap labor.


Not just the corporations, actually. Also the interests of any homeowner
who hires an illegal immigrant to do a bit of yardwork cheaply, or those of
anyone who buys a cheap head of lettuce. But still, the labor and/or
lettuce would still be available almost as cheaply if the laborers were
better regulated and tracked (i.e., something along the lines of an updated
bracero program). Developing the political will among individuals as well
as corporations to do that would involve a reexamination of where our best
interests actually lie. A nuke brought over the border in a coyote's truck
might someday accomplish that, even if nothing else does in the interim.

In any case, Bush lost some more ground with me tonight by suggesting that
Kerry was exaggerating the severity of the problem, quantitatively as well
as qualitatively. Even if Kerry never follows through on his assessment, an
unfortunate likelihood even if he's elected, at least he acknowledges it to
a greater extent than Bush does.

Subject: Re: "I am an undecided voter"
From: "The Chosen Few" thechosenfew@hotmail.com
Date: 10/14/2004 7:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <mPvbd.26158$kz3.21596@fed1read02


"brickbat" <brickbat@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:brickbat-A0A0F3.23144613102004@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
In article <O1cbd.22478$kz3.591@fed1read02>,
"The Chosen Few" <thechosenfew@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hey, Bush, Kerry: Forget the zingers, try leveling with us

Oct. 13, 2004
(Laurie Roberts, "Arizona Republic" columnist)

Today, I'm coming out of the closet.

I confess. I'm one of those people scorned by political wonks and
talk-radio
types alike.

In a world where everyone is so certain of their position, so sure that
their candidate can cure what ails us, I'm the one on the fence. In a
world
with two types of people, those who despise George Bush and those who
detest
John Kerry, I'm a citizen of the demilitarized zone, that small and
shrinking middle ground that 20 days out still hasn't decided who, if
anybody, can lead us to the promised land.

In a world where everyone is shouting, I'm the one still listening.

I am an undecided voter.

[...]

Tell me, gentlemen. Nobody in Washington has done anything to stem the
flow
of immigrants illegally streaming across Arizona's border. As a result,
we
are faced with dizzying costs and mounting frustrations and with
Proposition
200, which will do nothing to stop illegal immigration but will be
overwhelmingly approved anyway because people are desperate for
something,
anything, to be done.

What are you going to do about illegal immigration? Tell me. Please.

You want my vote? Then come and get it.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/columns/articles/1013roberts13.html

********************************************

Big political doings here in the Valley of the Sun today, as the third
presidential debate will be in Tempe (one of Phoenix's satellite
cities)
tonight. I hope someone asks Roberts' question about illegal
immigration,
and not just for the sake of Arizona.

-- TCF

It won't matter which candidate is elected in this election as in the
last. This government serves the interests of the corporations who use
the illegal immigration to serve as cheap labor.


Not just the corporations, actually. Also the interests of any homeowner
who hires an illegal immigrant to do a bit of yardwork cheaply, or those
of
anyone who buys a cheap head of lettuce. But still, the labor and/or
lettuce would still be available almost as cheaply if the laborers were
better regulated and tracked (i.e., something along the lines of an
updated
bracero program). Developing the political will among individuals as well
as corporations to do that would involve a reexamination of where our best
interests actually lie. A nuke brought over the border in a coyote's
truck
might someday accomplish that, even if nothing else does in the interim.

In any case, Bush lost some more ground with me tonight by suggesting that
Kerry was exaggerating the severity of the problem, quantitatively as well
as qualitatively. Even if Kerry never follows through on his assessment,
an
unfortunate likelihood even if he's elected, at least he acknowledges it
to
a greater extent than Bush does.


Bush, being an ex-governor of Texas, understands the problem. It's just
that he
needs the Latino vote for re-election. The cynic in me believes - if Bush
gets
re-elected, he'll take a harder line on illegal immigration because he
won't
have to worry about another re-election. If Kerry is elected, he'll
probably be
soft on illegal immigration because he *will* be worrying about
re-election.

Good point, and yet another good reason for limiting presidents by law to
only one
term.

The Chosen Few wrote:
...


Good point, and yet another good reason for limiting presidents by law to
only one
term.

Wouldn't that be undemocratic? You'd be limiting who the people could
vote for.

"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:416ea96b$1_2@127.0.0.1...

The Chosen Few wrote:
...


Good point, and yet another good reason for limiting presidents by law to
only one
term.

Wouldn't that be undemocratic? You'd be limiting who the people could
vote for.



Still on your pure democracy quest, I see. You'd have better luck finding
that guy Diogenes was looking for, and as I've pointed out to you before,
they never had a pure democracy in Athens either.

The Chosen Few wrote:
...


Good point, and yet another good reason for limiting presidents by law to
only one
term.

Wouldn't that be undemocratic? You'd be limiting who the people could
vote for.

In article <416ea96b$1_2@127.0.0.1>, "kuff (Isaac Adams)"
kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote:


The Chosen Few wrote:
...


Good point, and yet another good reason for limiting presidents by law to
only one
term.

Wouldn't that be undemocratic? You'd be limiting who the people could
vote for.


• Currently, we can't vote for anyone under a certain age. (35?)

•R.L.Measures wrote:
In article <416ea96b$1_2@127.0.0.1>, "kuff (Isaac Adams)"
kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote:


The Chosen Few wrote:
...


Good point, and yet another good reason for limiting presidents by law to
only one
term.

Wouldn't that be undemocratic? You'd be limiting who the people could
vote for.


• Currently, we can't vote for anyone under a certain age. (35?)


Or for Arnold Schwarzenegger or Bill Clinton or ...

In article <416efa42$1_5@127.0.0.1>, "kuff (Isaac Adams)"
kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote:

•R.L.Measures wrote:
In article <416ea96b$1_2@127.0.0.1>, "kuff (Isaac Adams)"
kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote:


The Chosen Few wrote:
...


Good point, and yet another good reason for limiting presidents by law
to
only one
term.

Wouldn't that be undemocratic? You'd be limiting who the people could
vote for.


• Currently, we can't vote for anyone under a certain age. (35?)


Or for Arnold Schwarzenegger or Bill Clinton or ...

• good point.

"•R.L.Measures" <r_@somis.org> wrote in message
news:r_-1510040532360001@192.168.1.101...

In article <416efa42$1_5@127.0.0.1>, "kuff (Isaac Adams)"
kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote:


•R.L.Measures wrote:

In article <416ea96b$1_2@127.0.0.1>, "kuff (Isaac Adams)"
kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote:



The Chosen Few wrote:
...


Good point, and yet another good reason for limiting presidents by law
to
only one
term.

Wouldn't that be undemocratic? You'd be limiting who the people could
vote for.


• Currently, we can't vote for anyone under a certain age. (35?)


Or for Arnold Schwarzenegger or Bill Clinton or ...

• good point.



Except that the pool of excluded candidates would be nearly everyone in
countries which are more commonly and reasonably considered undemocratic.

The Chosen Few wrote:
"•R.L.Measures" <r_@somis.org> wrote in message
news:r_-1510040532360001@192.168.1.101...

In article <416efa42$1_5@127.0.0.1>, "kuff (Isaac Adams)"
kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote:


•R.L.Measures wrote:

In article <416ea96b$1_2@127.0.0.1>, "kuff (Isaac Adams)"
kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote:



The Chosen Few wrote:
...


Good point, and yet another good reason for limiting presidents by
law
to
only one
term.

Wouldn't that be undemocratic? You'd be limiting who the people
could
vote for.


• Currently, we can't vote for anyone under a certain age. (35?)


Or for Arnold Schwarzenegger or Bill Clinton or ...

• good point.



Except that the pool of excluded candidates would be nearly everyone in
countries which are more commonly and reasonably considered
undemocratic.


So? Aren't we talking about our democracy and not theirs?

"kuff (Isaac Adams)" <kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:416fe439$1_2@127.0.0.1...

The Chosen Few wrote:

"•R.L.Measures" <r_@somis.org> wrote in message
news:r_-1510040532360001@192.168.1.101...


In article <416efa42$1_5@127.0.0.1>, "kuff (Isaac Adams)"
kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote:



•R.L.Measures wrote:


In article <416ea96b$1_2@127.0.0.1>, "kuff (Isaac Adams)"
kuff_1@hotmail.com> wrote:




The Chosen Few wrote:
...



Good point, and yet another good reason for limiting presidents by

law

to
only one
term.

Wouldn't that be undemocratic? You'd be limiting who the people

could

vote for.


• Currently, we can't vote for anyone under a certain age. (35?)


Or for Arnold Schwarzenegger or Bill Clinton or ...

• good point.



Except that the pool of excluded candidates would be nearly everyone in
countries which are more commonly and reasonably considered

undemocratic.

So? Aren't we talking about our democracy and not theirs?