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Your own fictional Jesus......

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guardian Snow...

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:11 am

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On Nov 2, 6:25 am, singin4free:
YOUR OWN FICTIONAL JESUS…

Quote:

Now the ministry of
weakness say, “You can’t be righteous” “Jesus is our righteousness
because he kept the Torah perfectly so you have no need to be
righteous. If you only believe you will not die but have eternal
life.”

Now I ask you, where is the motivation to guard the words of Yahweh?
Aren’t we in fact negotiating a reason to continue a life of sin just
like the serpent in the garden?

We can't be righteous without Jesus, but with him we can (and will)
be. Righteousness is Christ the Perfect One living His life through
you.

No, Righteousness is YOU doing the will of the Father and following
the example set before you by the Messiah.

Joh 13:15 “For I gave you an example, that you should do as I have
done to you.
Joh 13:16 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than
his master, nor is an emissary greater than he who sent him.
Joh 13:17 “If you know these teachings, blessed are you if you do
them.

“If you do them” that is as the master taught. So often we see it
over and over again, people making up concepts that are not taught by
the Messiah. Let’s be clear, at no point in the words of the Messiah
did he ever say, “go and sin for I will be your righteousness”.

Mat 5:48 “Therefore, be perfect, as your Father in the heavens is
perfect.”

Doesn’t anybody find it interesting that “our Father is in heaven”
while the Messiah was on earth? Clearly they have a disconnect
between the deity of Yahweh and the Son, Yehoshua.

Quote:

The motivation to do the will of God is knowing Yeshua. Knowing
Jesus changes you, actually, recreates or regenerates you.

Any support for this in the teachings of the Messiah? Trinity
Christians are locked into an IMAGE they worship that is unchanging in
a version of scriptures that has clearly been tampered with and refuse
to recognize this because it means that as an institution, they are
practicing false worship and nobody wants to recognize their own
error, that they too have been deceived into being part of the church
of Babylon.

Quote:

We come to
know the living Jesus when we believe, causing us cry out to him in
sincere faith for salvation. In an instant we are translated from the
kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

I would not deny the potential of this but clearly you do not
demonstrate the FRUIT of this.

Quote:

And as he promised he
comes to abide in us. He is the one with the motivation. He is the
life of the Vine. If you are not in the Vine, you have no life in you.

Life is in the spirit, NOT THE FLESH by his own teachings. Elohim is
SPIRIT that you deny on a daily bases in your fleshly worship and your
practice of worshiping the outward appearance.

Quote:

Yeshua said:

"I am the True Vine and you are the branches".

Joh 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the gardener.

You really should quote the passage you pretend to know.

Quote:

Therefore to have the life of YHWH flowing through you, you must be in
the True Vine.

No, you must be planted by the gardner…

Mat 15:13 But He answering, said, “Every plant which My heavenly
Father has not planted shall be uprooted.
Mat 15:14 “Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And
if the blind leads the blind, both shall fall into a ditch.”

Quote:

This life flows with righteousness. It brings us to
life as new creatures. There is then a new man who is alive in Christ,
and there was the old man who was dead in sin. The old man was fallen
and unable to even understand this. He will always ask, "What
motivates you to do righteousness if you trust Christ to be your
righteousness?". To him it is not logical because he cannot see the
kingdom of God, as Yeshua said,

You should have believed him when he taught you the way of
righteousness instead of disregarding all that he taught and said that
instead of you being righteous, he is it for you… a teaching he never
promoted and you should reconsider.

Quote:

"Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God."

The old man will always say that trusting Christ is weakness,

Having the belief of Yehoshua is true. Christ simply means anointed
one and is not a name but a title that is represented of many in the
scriptures including Moses and still I see you pay no attention to his
teachings.

Quote:

when in
fact it is the very weakness of surrender to the will of the Father
that makes us strong,

So why do you not obey the TORAH OF YAHWEH if it were truly “the will
of the Father” that you sought but instead you preach as Satan saying,
“Go, continue to sin and Ye shall not die.” The reality of what the
Messiah taught you was:

Mat 5:20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds
that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into
the reign of the heavens.

Another harsh reality is that MANY will come to him as you do with the
works of lawlessness and he will tell you that you never believed him
or the messenger he sent to you…

Mat 7:23 “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart
from Me, you who work lawlessness!

Quote:

for in our weakness His strength is brought to
bear against the enemy of our souls.

You would not be weak if you had the STRENGTH OF ELOHIM in your
motivation and in this you show your evidence of following Lucifer.

Isa 14:10 “All of them respond and say to you, ‘Have you also become
as weak as we? Have you become like us?

Quote:

It is always in Him we trust. Not
in horses - in the Lord our God as it says:

"Psa 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will
remember the name of YHWH our Elohim".

Had you trusted him you would have believed him when he said to enter
into life, guard the commands but you clearly DO NOT BELIEVE the
Messiah Yehoshua.

Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good
except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the
commands.”

This is not my teaching but his that you disregard and pretend to pay
homage to scriptures that say by HIS KNOWLEDGE you would be saved… no
instead you go searching the scriptures for those rare passages that
might agree with your unbelief. A clear example follows:

Quote:

What are the chariots and the horses? These are things we trust in
that we perceive to have strength, such as our own righteousness,
which is in fact unable to save and will fail us, it is as the
scripture says "as filthy rags", as it says in Isaiah 64:6

It also says we should take hold of YHWH and call upon his Name in
Isaiah 64:7

" And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up
himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and

And in your willful disobedience you call upon “HeZues” Almighty and
practice deception to support your dogma but I have not said to call
upon my own strength and righteousness… but only in YHWH are we
righteous, NOT JESUS who was a prophet of the Most High YAHWEH.

Luk 1:76 “And you, child, shall be called prophet of the Most High,
for you shall go before the face of YAHWEH to prepare His ways,
Luk 1:77 to give knowledge of deliverance to His people, by the
forgiveness of their sins,

It is YAHWEH that forgives sins and he did this long before the
Messiah died on the cross besides the fact that David, when he
committed murder and adultery with his neighbors wife, did not
sacrifice.

Isa 33:6 And He shall be the trustworthiness of your times, a wealth
of deliverance, wisdom and knowledge. The fear of YAHWEH– that is His
treasure.

Hos 6:6 “For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the
knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.

You deny his knowledge, deny his teachings and then claim inspiration
that is laughable to me and I don’t tell you this to condemn you but
rather to inform you of another competing idea that you have
rejected.. one that says you MUST OBEY they words of Yehoshua and not
just talk and say like the hypocrites but be a doer of the word.

I really do wish you well in your walk of faith but your walk is not
my walk… I will not just pay lip service to the teachings and then
disregard them in the next breath talking about wishful thinking that
says “I believed” but did not follow his teachings… I did not need to
keep his example because he was the perfect human sacrifice murdered
by the Romans for me… it’s the most ridiculous religion I’ve come out
from and promise never to return to.. I have repented from the
diversionary dogma that says, “I can lead a sinful life and claim to
be a new creature and never actually have to demonstrate that I really
did believe… YOUR FAITH WILL NOT SAVE YOU.

Jas 2:19 You believe that Elohim is one. You do well. The demons also
believe – and shudder!
Jas 2:20 But do you wish to know, O foolish man, that the belief
without the works is dead?

Mat 7:12 “Therefore, whatever you wish men to do to you, do also to
them, for this is the Torah and the Prophets.”

Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)

Be thou the rainbow in the storms of life. The evening beam that
smiles the clouds away, and tints tomorrow with prophetic ray.
Lord Byron

Please come post your comments at
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/
A public forum for those who believe.

“You’re the voice” by John Farnham
We have
The chance to turn the pages over
We can write what we want to write
We gotta make ends meet, before we get much older

We're all someone's daughter
We're all someone's son
How long can we look at each other
Down the barrel of a gun?

Chorus:
You're the voice, try and understand it
Make a noise and make it clear
Oh-o-o-o, whoa-o-o-o!
We're not gonna sit in silence
We're not gonna live with fear
Oh-o-o-o, whoa-o-o-o!

This time
We know we all stand together
With the power to be powerful
Believing, we can make it better

Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/

jwsheffield at (no spam) satx.rr.com...

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:18 am

Guest

Justification by Faith and Christian Ethics

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For
men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud,
blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without
natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent,
fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded,
lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of
godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2 Tim.
3:1-5.
This age is notorious for its lack of respect for law. "The quarrel of
the world today is not so much between right and wrong as between
rival ways of defining and doing right."1 Once it was generally
accepted that right and wrong must be judged by some objective,
absolute standard. A little more than one hundred years ago society
began to opt for belief in evolution instead of divine creation. The
next step was perfectly logical and inevitable. If God is not our
Creator, He is not our Judge, And if He is not our Judge, we must be
our own judge. Ever heard of existentialism, situation ethics,
relativism, the new morality? Of course you have! These philosophies
are all based on the premise that I am my only judge of right and
wrong, and therefore I am not responsible to any absolute, outside-of-
me standard for my conduct.

We do not here intend to dwell in the appalling breakdown of ethics
which is taking place in the nation. We all know that disrespect for
law has become a social epidemic. What Christians need to be
especially alarmed about is that this same spirit of disrespect for
law has rubbed off on the church. Let us be careful to notice that in
St. Paul's delineation of last-day sins, quoted previously, the burden
is not to show how bad the world will be at the end time. The apostle
describes the conditions that will exist in the church in the last
days (i.e., among those "having a form of godliness").

While the secular liberals talk of "the responsible self," "social
consciousness," etc., in place of law, many Christians talk of
"Christian love" and "the guidance of the Holy Spirit" as taking the
place of law. (It is the same tune, only different word forms.) Even
we evangelicals have often carried on such a one-sided attack against
legalism that law has, for many of us, become a dirty word. Under the
influence of liberalism, legalism has evolved a new meaning. Whereas
it used to mean the wrong use of law (as a means of salvation), now it
is often taken to mean conscientious obedience to rules of any kind.
("Who needs rules, man, when you're tanked up on the Spirit?") As
society is being deluged by corruption, lawlessness and rottenness
that defies description, it needs no encouragement from the church to
show disrespect for law.2

Justification by Faith and Respect for Law

We agree with New Testament scholar, J. Gresham Machen, who said, "One
way to encourage respect for law, we think, would be to make law more
respectable."—J. Gresham Machen, What Is Faith? (Grand Rapids:
Eerdmans), p.168. How do we make law more respectable?

There are some who are ready to blame too much emphasis on
justification by faith for lack of ethical action in the church. They
feel that this great Protestant "war cry" doctrine needs to be played
down, while more emphasis needs to be given to sanctification and
practical Christian living. This is a happy eventuality for Rome, who
has always contended that Luther's doctrine loosens the reins of moral
restraint.

The great Reformation principle of justification by faith is in no way
responsible for fostering disrespect for law. It is the distorted and
false views of our great Protestant heritage which take all the force
out of the Bible's ethical imperatives. This is an age that knows
almost nothing about that great Reformation doctrine of justification
by faith. It is impossible to be strong on justification by faith and
weak on ethics. Justification is a term of law. No two Bible concepts
stand more closely related than justification and law. To honor and
uphold one is to honor and uphold the other (Rom. 3:31).

Returning to Machen's proposition, how may we make law more
respectable? By putting the truth of justification back into the
center of the Christian message, where it belongs. Wherever and
whenever this truth is exalted and taught, the Spirit of God breathes
new life into the church and furnishes its members for "every good
work."

It is now our task to specifically state how the truth of
justification by faith is the backbone of all right conduct.

1. The Fear of God, Justification and Ethics

What would you think of a fellow who tried to show you some picture
slides of his latest overseas trip and did not bother to put up a
background screen but simply focused his pictures out in midair? Of
course, his pictures would not make sense. Just so, the great Biblical
truth of justification by faith does not make sense unless it is
focused against the background of the fear of God.

"The fear of God is the soul of godliness."—John Murray, Principles of
Conduct (The Tyndale Press), p. 229. The Bible says it is the
beginning of wisdom (Prov.9:10), the foundation of piety (Job 1: Cool

,
the soul of obedience (Eccl. 12:13; Gen. 22:11,12), the basis of
ethical integrity (Gen. 20:11; Prov. 8:13:16:6) and the foundation of
sanctification (2 Cor. 7:1). The Holy Spirit is called "the
Spirit. . . of the fear of the Lord." Isa. 11:2.

To fear God means to respond to Him with reverential awe, humble
respect and profound adoration. This attitude toward God comes by a
lively sense of the majesty of Him who is constantly aflame with
holiness, truth and goodness, and of the wrath of Him whose justice is
fiery indignation against sin.

Whenever men are taught the fear of the Lord by a confrontation with
God's righteousness and His claims upon their lives, they are led to
cry out, "How can I be just with God?" They do not take it for granted
that God forgives, but they are so impressed with the righteousness of
God that their own conscience demands, "How can God justly forgive
me?" They feel like Spurgeon, who cried out, "I felt I could not be
forgiven unless I could be forgiven justly." This is the great problem
that St. Paul solves for us in his message to the Romans—how God
demonstrates His justice in the remission of sins (Rom. 3:25, 26).

When we look at the current religious scene, there is little evidence
that people are asking such theocentric (God-centered) questions.
Instead, they are asking anthropocentric (man-centered) questions
like, "How can God make me happy? How can Christ make my life run
smoothly and joyously? How can I solve my [petty] problems and find
fulfillment in life?" Never has so much religious activity been so
disinterested in the question of justification with God. Why? Because
there is so little fear of God. People can wave their arms or jump up
and down "in the Spirit." But if the religious interest is not marked
by a great fear of God, it is not the work of the Holy Spirit, for He
is "the Spirit . . . of the fear of the Lord."

Again, why is there such an appalling disinterest in justification by
faith? Because people are taking it for granted that God is gracious
and forgiving. In fact, they feel that they are on such good terms
with Him that they talk to Him as if He were (to use Luther's
complaint against the Enthusiasts) "a shoemaker's apprentice." How can
justification be a burning question when there is no marked fear of
God?

Consider how these man-centered questions are patently foolish in the
light of man's predicament. Here is a wretched sinner, bound hand and
foot and consigned to hell for his great crimes against his Maker.
Standing on the threshold of eternal damnation, he presumes to ask,
"How can God make me happy?" (as if God were in his debt). Such a
question shows he has no true sense of his awful predicament. If the
Spirit gives him any true enlightenment of his situation, he will
rather cry out, "How can I be right with God?"

We are not suggesting that God is indifferent to the happiness of His
earthly children. But we do not find happiness in trying to use God as
if He were our lackey. Nowhere do we find such genuine, exultant joy
as in Romans 5 and 8.

This holy, sacred joy comes to the man who, because of Christ, has
found justification at the hand of a just and merciful God. Such a man
Is ready to follow Christ anywhere, to make any sacrifice, to perform
any duty, to obey any commandment, and to count it all a "reasonable
service" from an "unprofitable servant." He does not take his
forgiveness for granted or begin to walk before God with irreverent
familiarity, but with the Psalmist, he prays, "There is forgiveness
with Thee, that Thou mayest be feared." Ps. 130:4.

A pastor asked me, "My congregation has no vital joy in the Lord.
They're not Spirit-filled Christians. What can I do?" I replied,
"Teach them salvation and what it means to be just with God." "Oh," he
rejoined, "they all know that—they've been saved." Great fallacy of
much modern evangelicalism! That is the very condition Paul says would
exist in the church—". . . unthankful, unholy. . ." Imagine saying to
the man who wrote Romans, "Paul, I accept your doctrine of
justification by faith, I thank God that I'm not a legalist like those
Strong Will Baptists. But can you tell me how my life can be vitalized
with Christian joy?" With one fell stroke of the Word, the apostle
would say, "Happy are they whose iniquities are forgiven." "We also
joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received
the atonement." Rom.4:7; 5:11. Justification without joy in the Holy
Spirit is unthinkable!

The message of justification by grace, because of Christ, through
faith, is the sweetest and most joyful melody that can ever come to
the human heart. Then why are people rushing off to find "the Spirit"
a la the second blessing, tongues or some guru of victorious living
fame? It is because the fear of God is the one great ingredient most
lacking in the current religious scene, and therefore the truth of
justification is unappreciated as the only doorway to the Spirit.

The New Testament teaches the fear of God as much as does the Old
Testament. Luke describes the church as "walking in the fear of the
Lord." Acts 9:31. The writer to the Hebrew Christians exhorts the
believers not to "draw back" and find that it "is a fearful thing to
fall into the hands of the living God." Heb. 10:38, 31. And Paul
exhorts the Gentile Christians, "Be not highminded, but fear: for if
God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not
thee." Rom. 11:20, 21.

We are not unmindful that gratitude for salvation motivates the man
who knows that he has been redeemed by the precious blood of Christ.
But the tendency in a lot of modern evangelicalism is to strain out
the sterner element of "fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12) and insist on
nothing but gratitude for being saved as a motive for Christian
ethics. Many want to talk about nothing but "confidence," 'boldness"
and "assurance" (which are very needful too), but they fall into the
heresy that comes by stressing only one side of the paradox. The
Christian life must be lived in the tension of fear and trembling on
the one hand, and faith and confidence on the other.

God is not a popular somebody with whom sinners may fraternize on
their own level. He is so high, so holy, that He can have no direct
fellowship with any man save Jesus Christ. Christ's person alone will
He accept, and Christ's righteousness alone makes Him propitious
toward us. Well may the most holy saint flee from His throne with
dread and terror except that he may keep on looking to his Substitute
at God's right hand and keep on believing the good news that he is
justified in God's sight solely because Jesus stands there instead of
him and for him. This is the only atmosphere in which the Christian
continues to live and breathe. Such a Christian will never look on sin
as if it were as harmless as a Sunday afternoon frolic.

In short, two things belong together—the fear of God and Christian
ethics—just as Solomon declares, "Fear God, and keep His commandments:
for this is the whole duty of man." Eccl 12:13. And the last book of
the Bible declares, "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of
His judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and
earth . . . ". Rev. 14:7.

2. The Atonement, Justification and Ethics

St. Paul did not write the book of Romans just to tell us that God is
willing to forgive. The Old Testament had already made that abundantly
clear. Nor did he write Romans just to tell us that we should live by
trusting in God's mercy. The Old Testament was clear enough on that
too. The central issue that the Epistle deals with is this: How can
the God of law and justice forgive sin? How can the moral Governor of
the universe justify people who deserve to be blamed? It is important
to see that the theme of Romans, therefore, is not merely the
justification of sinners, but the justification of God in His
justification of sinners.

God's justice in passing over sins was prefigured in types and shadows
of the old dispensation. The prophets who "prophesied of the grace
that should come" "inquired and searched diligently" into God's answer
to the problem of sin (1 Peter 1:10,11).

So often God had revealed Himself as gracious and forgiving. He passed
over the sins of Israel times without number. He passed over the sins
of David without inflicting upon him what justice required. He even
forgave the sins of Manasseh, who filled Jerusalem with the blood of
God's saints. How is all this consistent with justice? Does the
supreme Judge treat His law as a mere bylaw to be modified, relaxed or
set aside at pleasure? Should not the Judge uphold the law
irrespective of any person? We might even say that God's passing by
the sins of men might look like moments of weak leniency on the part
of the great Judge, and therefore His act of pardon might appear as a
scandal against the divine government.

Then God Himself answers in the bolts of holy wrath that fell on
Himself in the person of Christ. Never had earth or heaven beheld such
a display of awful, infinite justice as when God spared not His only
Son. So Paul points to the cross of Christ and declares:

God meant by this to demonstrate His justice, because in His
forbearance He had overlooked the sins of the past [i.e., in past ages]
—to demonstrate His justice now in the present, showing that He is
Himself just and also justifies any man who puts his faith in Jesus.
Rom. 3:25, 26, N.E.B.
There are some who feel that forgiveness of sins proceeds from an easy-
going benevolence. Consequently, they are also easy-going about sin,
saying in their hearts, "There is plenty of forgiveness with the
Lord." Others propose that Christ died merely to show us that God will
excuse our sins and good-naturedly pass them by. Such sentimental
thoughts of Calvary allow them to sin with an easy conscience. Then
there are some who see the atonement as a skillful maneuver on the
part of God to "get around His law." So why should not they also spend
their lives getting around the law?

The Biblical doctrine of atonement undergirds all Christian ethics. It
shows us that God was not only providing for the justification of
sinners, but for the justification of the moral order of the universe.
It shows us that the divine law and government must be maintained and
vindicated. Calvary was the highest honor that God Himself could pay
to His law. Prophecy had declared of Christ, "He will magnify the law,
and make it honorable." isa. 42:21. As Flavell, the Puritan, observed,
never was the law of God more highly honored as when Christ stood
before the bar of justice to make reparations for the damage done. And
Luther declared, "Now although out of pure grace God does not impute
our sins to us, He nonetheless did not want to do this until complete
and ample satisfaction of His law and His righteousness had been
made.' '—What Luther Says, ed. Ewald M. Plass, Vol.2, p.709. Calvary
shows us that "in this universe debts are paid" (Leon Morris).

Says E. F. Kevan, principal of London Bible College:

Death is the doom of sin, the sanction, the curse, the sentence of the
law; and in dying for us Christ recognized without abatement the
utmost claims of the law as expressive of the holy will of God. It is
in this sense that He is said to have become a curse for us, and to
have been made sin for us by God; it is in this sense also that God is
said in Him to have condemned sin in the flesh. All these passages
(Galatians iii.13; iv.4f; 2 Corinthians v.21; Romans viii.3) describe
the same thing: the absolute honour paid to the law by Christ in
freely submitting to that death in which the law's condemnation of
humanity is expressed (James Denney, Hastings' Dictionary of the
Bible, Article Law [In New Testament], Vol. III, p.80). Fascinated by
the simplicities of forgiveness some writers have mistaken the part
for the whole and have denied any deep relation between our Lord's
work and the Law of God; but the relation of our Lord's work to the
Law of God is undeniable. By His complete fulfilment of it and His
utter satisfaction in respect of our transgressions of it, His
atonement becomes what E. Y. Mullins describes as "the "transformation
and glorification of law" (E. Y. Mullins The Christian Religion in Its
Doctrinal Expression, p. 322).—E. F. Kevan, The Evangelical Doctrine
of Law, pp.21, 22.
Says Carl Henry in his excellent book, Personal Christian Ethics:3

The Cross is the center of the moral universe, unveiling God's
absolute refusal to suspend his law of holiness. The sanctity with
which penal theory invests the moral law is one element of its
strength. It stands as the supreme obstacle to making sin relative, to
reducing the justice of God to anthropomorphic projections, to
concealing his moral indignation and ethical anger. That the moral law
cannot be defied with impunity is dramatically clear from the fact
that "God spared not his own Son." The moral world is one in which
holiness reigns absolutely and uniformly. Whatever tampers with this
undermines respect for the fact that the moral claim reaches to every
last motive and act of the responsible being. If the claim of the law
or the punishment of sin is relaxed in but a single province of the
moral universe, the Divine ethical government is to that extent
dishonored and weakened. What fact more fully enforces the majestic
righteousness of God than the conviction of the inviolability of his
moral law published by the atonement of the Cross?—p. 367.
The doctrine of redemption does not relax the believer's obligation to
the Divine commandments, nor weaken his motives to observe them —p.
375.
While it may be true that examples can be found of those who presume
on Divine goodness by living a life of unholiness while they fool
themselves with the hope that they will escape the consequences of
their sins through Christ's sacrifice, this is not characteristic of
the evangelical temper.—p.375.
3. Faith, Justification and Ethics

We must now consider the nature and action of faith in the sinner's
justification. Faith is the root of every good work, the tree that
blossoms and bears a harvest of ethical action.

When the nature and action of faith are misunderstood, people are not
too concerned about being "zealous of good works." For instance,
people listen to a preacher who keeps harping, "We are not saved by
living a life of good works, but by faith. Keeping the law does not
justify us with God, but faith does." In the first place, the hearers
may easily conclude that God is not too concerned about good works and
the honor of His law, so why should they be too concerned about it? In
the second place, they may also conclude that a certain quality in
their own hearts called "faith" is going to please God and move Him to
open heaven for them.

Each of these conclusions is a terrible mistake, for:

a. God does care for good works and the honor of His law. His holy
nature demands a righteousness that conforms to His commandments
without variableness or shadow of turning. St. Paul declares,". . .
the doers of the law shall be justified." Rom. 2:13. Perfect obedience
to His law is the only condition upon which God will give any man
eternal life (Matt. 19:17). As Luther said, "The law must be fulfilled
so that not a jot or tittle shall be lost, otherwise man will be
condemned without hope." —Luther's Works, Vol.31, pp.348, 349.

The good news of the gospel is that Christ has lived this life of
perfect obedience. He has fulfilled the conditions upon which God will
justify unto life eternal. He lived this life in our name and on our
behalf. This is why the apostle says that we are justified by Christ
(Gal. 3:17), by His obedience (Rom. 5:18,19). So it is perfectly true
to say that the meritorious cause of our justification is a life of
good works — not ours, of course, but His. While the death of Jesus
(passive obedience) is the basis upon which God forgives sin, the life
of Jesus (active obedience) is the basis upon which God can impute to
us a life of perfect obedience. We need to hear more about the
redemptive nature of Christ's life, for this is what fulfills the law
and entitles us to eternal life.

b. God does not justify us because of our faith—as if faith had any
redemptive value. Neither does God now accept faith instead of perfect
obedience to His law. (This is the error of neo-nomianism, which says
that Christ died to change the conditions, to make it possible for God
to demand an easier standard.) Faith is not the meritorious cause of
justification but merely the instrumental cause, i.e.: Here is a poor
sinner who hears that God will accept nothing but a life of perfect
righteousness. Then he hears how Christ kept the law of God for him
and so provided this perfect life. This good news kindles faith in his
heart by the working of the Holy Spirit. He cries out, "Mine are
Christ's living, His doing and dying; mine as much as if I had lived,
spoken, suffered and died as He did." By faith he identifies himself
with Christ's life of perfect obedience and presents it to God on his
behalf. Justice acknowledges that this life, which the sinner now
accepts as his, meets the demands of the law, and God pronounces him
justified.

This instrumental action of faith is not a mere relic of Protestant
orthodoxy. It is necessary to give the sinner a high view of God's law
and an appreciation of His unalterable demand for a righteous life.
How can the believing sinner identify himself with Christ's obedient
living, how can he present that life to God in faith, how can he
rejoice in the law-abiding life of Jesus Christ as his hope of
salvation, unless that life he holds to in faith becomes his own
standard of conduct? Faith honors the perfection of God in concrete
obedience.

4. The Dynamic Nature of Justification and Ethics

Every well-informed Protestant knows that justification by faith is
"the article of the standing or falling church" (Luther). This
doctrine must be guarded with special care, and, as Luther constantly
affirmed, it cannot be learned too well.

Just as Luther and Calvin were the two principal Reformers, so two
streams emerged from the Reformation — Lutheran and Reformed. We are
all greatly indebted to the contribution made by these two branches of
the Reformation. But has the ethical fruit of these two movements
always adorned the doctrine of Christ?

In his monumental History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff cites
these remarks of Bishop Martensen of Denmark:

I am more and more convinced that the deepest defect of Lutheran
churchism heretofore has been a lack of the full appreciation of the
ethical element of Christianity. This becomes manifest so often in the
manner of the Lutheran champions. There is lacking the tenderness of
conscience and thorough moral culture which deals conscientiously with
the opponent. Justification by faith is made to cover, in advance, all
sins, even the future ones; and this is only another form of
indulgence. The Lutheran doctrine leads, if we look at the principle,
to an establishment of ethics on the deepest foundation. But many
treat justification, not only as the beginning, but also as the goal.
Hence we see not seldom the justified and the old man side by side,
and the old man is not a bit changed. Lutherans who show in their
literary and social conduct the stamp of the old Adam would deal more
strictly with themselves, and fear to fall from grace by such conduct,
if they had a keener conscience, and could see the necessary
requirements of the principle of justification; for then they would
shrink from such conduct as a sin against conscience. But the doctrine
of justification is often misused for lulling the conscience to sleep,
instead of quickening it.—Vol. 7, p.667.

Those who stand in the Reformed tradition have often been careful to
guard the proper forensic meaning of justification, and they have come
in for not a little criticism for making justification sound like some
dry, legal procedure of celestial credit. Although the criticism is
often made by those who want to eliminate all legal categories from
salvation, there is some truth to their criticism. While Roman
Catholic theologians think along Aristotelian lines, Reformed
theology, for all its strength, does tend to be Platonic. It often
fails to capture the dynamic spirit of Hebrew thinking that is so
characteristic of the Bible writers. And without a dynamic view of
justification, the church fights a losing battle against sterile
orthodoxy. How many Reformed men lament the deadness of their church!

What do we mean by a dynamic view of justification? It is perfectly
true that we are here dealing with a legal word, a term of the law
court. The sinner who hears4 the gospel knows he is a wretched captive
of the devil. He knows that the enemy of God and man has destroyed the
dignity and freedom of his manhood and robbed him of his original
inheritance. Yet this sinner has faith to know that his case can be
heard at the court of divine judgment. The moment of justification is
the moment of judgment. The Judge is about to render His verdict. Now
we must not think of this court scene as if this poor man were like a
defendant in the dock hoping at best for mere acquittal or pardon. We
must picture the scene more like a civil case where the believing
sinner is the plaintiff. He knows the rights and titles Christ has won
for him. He is confident that by coming in Christ's name he has a good
case. If he is declared to be right with God, then he may proceed to
exercise his rights as a son of God, as a righteous man. With this
verdict he may walk out of the miserable service of the devil, live in
the restored dignity of God-given manhood and walk in "the way of the
King's pilgrims." So he presses his case to the Judge that he may gain
those rights and titles. The verdict of justification sets him free to
act. He is delivered out of the hand of the enemy that He may now
serve God in holiness and righteousness all the days of his life (Luke
1:74, 75). He is purged from dead works to serve the living God (Heb.
9:14). Justification means he is set free for a new life of ethical
action. It means he is set free for loving service to his neighbor.

A "justification" that does not release the sinner for ethical action
is just plainly Platonic. Charles Wesley captured the dynamic spirit
of justification in these lines from "Amazing Love":

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature's night.
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth and followed thee.

So far we have considered some rights and titles that justification
gives to the believing sinner. Now let us take a higher view and see
what rights and titles justification gives to God. God can only be in
fellowship with those who are perfectly righteous. He cannot take
charge of the life that does not belong to Him. The moment God
pronounces the believer righteous because of Christ (not because of
faith), He can then, with perfect justice, begin to treat him as a
righteous man. How does God treat the believer as righteous? By giving
him the Holy Spirit—"the Spirit of holiness." The Spirit inspires and
empowers every justified believer to follow after "holiness, without
which no man shall see the Lord." It is certain that those who have
not the Spirit of holiness are not justified. These two cannot be
separated — justification and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Justification is God's title to pour out His Spirit. It sets Him free
to act dynamically within so we may live fruitfully unto every good
work. While the overwhelming sense of God's pardoning love enters into
the deepest motives of conduct, the Holy Spirit provides the believer
with power for conduct. We must remember that two streams flowed from
the pierced side of the Crucified — blood and water. They represent
the legal and the vital aspects of salvation, which must be
distinguished but never separated. Wherever the blood delivers from
the curse and condemnation of the law, the Spirit is present to
cleanse the heart from the pollution and power of sin. There is good
theology in that grand old hymn:

Be of sin the double cure,
Cleanse me from its guilt and power.

5. The Concrete Nature of Justification and Ethics

Hebraic or Biblical modes of thinking are not only dynamic but
concrete. Justification is a law term. Sin means nonconformity to the
law, and righteousness means conformity to the law.5 The Bible is as
simple and as concrete as that. Justification is God's verdict that
the believer in Jesus conforms to the law of God. As a response to
this gracious verdict, the believer will henceforth strive to conform
his life to the law of God. It is inconceivable that he could do
otherwise.

Again ,justification, as a term of law, means " setting one right
before law."—A. H. Strong, Systematic Theology, p.856. Justification
means establishing a right relationship to the law as well as a right
relationship with God (for how can God and the expression of His will
be separated). Before faith comes, the sinner is "enmity against
God . . . not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Rom.
8:7. And the law works condemnation and wrath against this enemy
sinner (Rom. 4:15). Where there is justification, there is
reconciliation. The law is able to regard the believing sinner as
righteous. The believing sinner is able to regard the law as "a
friendly guide" (Berkouwer).

This changed relationship of law and believing sinner is nothing short
of astounding—it is a miracle. The legal change becomes effective in a
vital change. The holy commandments, once "grievous" (1 John 5:3),
become delightsome (Rom. 7:22). According to the new covenant promise,
the Holy Spirit writes the law in the believer's heart (Heb. 8:10),
and he now reflects the spirit of the man who wrote Psalm 119: "O how
love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day." So the great Puritan
divine, Thomas Watson, could say:

The Ten Commandments are a chain of pearls to adorn us; they are our
treasury to enrich us; they are more precious than lands of spices, or
rocks of diamonds. The law of Thy mouth is better unto me than
thousands of gold and silver!—Thomas Watson, The Ten Commandments (The
Banner of Truth Trust), p.14.

The Reformers clearly saw that the law of God has three uses, viz.:

a. First Use — usus civilis (civil use) — as a social use to restrain
sin in "civilized" society.

b. Second Use — usus pedagogicus (stern sin-convicting "schoolmaster"
use) — to point out sin and be a tutor to lead the sinner to Christ.

c. Third Use — tertius usus legis — to be a rule of life and moral
guide for Christians.

In the last one hundred years it has become quite a popular doctrine
to reject "the third use of the law." This is antinomianism (Greek:
anti- against nomos- law). It undermines the whole structure of
Christian ethics, destroys all ethical content of justification by
faith and betrays the cause of the Reformation.

When we say that the Christian is not under the obligation to the law,
we had better be clear that we mean obligation to satisfy its claims
for perfect righteousness and not obligation to obey it as a rule of
life. But many fail to make that distinction. Does the justified
believer have any further dealings with the law? As a means of
salvation, No! In connection with a loving response, Yes! The
atonement should be to us a constant reminder of the unrelieved
heinousness of breaking God's law. The freedom of justification by
faith is freedom to obey, the privilege to obey a law so royal, so
holy (Rom. 7:6,12, 25; James 2:10). Far from not being under
obligation to keep it, love puts us under double obligation to keep
it. Says Carl Henry, "The growing hostility in contemporary statements
of Christian ethics to keeping the commandments is profoundly in
error."—Carl Henry, Personal Christian Ethics, p.361.

There are four kinds of teachings that effectively deny "the third use
of the law" and open the door to antinomianism:

a. Making Grace Antagonistic to Law. The Reformers made a sharp
distinction between the law and the gospel, but they were careful to
write into all the great confessions that the law of God always
remains valid as a rule of life for believers. But in the last one
hundred years there has developed a kind of teaching that sets the law
in opposition to grace and discards the concept of the law's third
use. Reformed scholar, Oswald T Allis, makes these observations in
reference to this teaching:

The gospel age is the age of the new covenant; and it is not marked by
freedom from the law, by return to a dispensation of promise which
knew nothing of obedience as a condition. Rather is it pre-eminently
the age when the law of God, the revealed will of God, is and will be
kept as never before — not as the means of salvation, but as the fruit
of a life that is hid with Christ in God! . . . But this erroneous
conception of the relation in which the promise, the law, and the
gospel stand to one another could not but have serious consequences.
The most important of these is the failure to apprehend correctly the
close and intimate relation which exists between Justification and
sanctification—Oswald T. Allis, Prophecy and the Church (The
Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co.), pp.42, 43.

b. Enthusiasm. By "Enthusiasm" we do not mean religious fanaticism
which causes people to jump up and down in spiritual ecstasy.
"Enthusiasm" is a teaching which claims a direct guidance from the
Holy Spirit apart from the written, outside-of-me Word of God. Instead
of a sound teaching on the third use of the law, there are many today
who feel that the Holy Spirit dwells in them and tells them what to do
quite apart from any teaching of the law. Luther had to meet this
error from those whom he called "Enthusiasts." The Reformer saw that
their basic error was to make a dangerous separation of Word and
Spirit. Luther and Calvin had to maintain that the Holy Spirit works
in the Word and never apart from the Word. The only way to hear the
Holy Spirit speak to us is to listen to the Word, and the only way to
obey the Spirit is to obey that objective Word of God. We must have
none of this notion that we can get a private word from the Lord. We
need the law as that outside-of-me direction; otherwise we must live
by the uncertain voices within.

The charismatics who claim visions, private revelations and direct
information from God are only carrying what has been a popular notion
to its logical end. 'Enthusiasm" sets up a mystical inner witness and
inner light instead of the objective Word of God. Under the guise of
honoring the Holy Spirit, the Enthusiast's inner voices become a norm
to replace the (absolute) norm of God's law. Says Carl Henry:

The rule of the Spirit does not remove man from the will of God
objectively revealed in the Bible, and emancipate him to moral self-
sufficiency. The Spirit rules in and through the written Word, which
He has inspired. The spiritual discernment of the regenerate man is
not relieved of the need for ethical instruction and guidance . . .
Paul does not arrive at a 'Spirit ethics."—Henry, op. cit, p.360.

c. Quietism. Quietism is the teaching that the Christian life is lived
by being a passive channel for the operation of the Holy Spirit. The
victorious life is said to be lived when the believer stops trying and
lets God do it all. ("Let go and let God.")

The error of Quietism is that it tends to make the Holy Spirit's work
in the heart substitutionary. This is the result of an inadequate
focus on the grand facts of Christ's substitutionary work. The work
Christ did in life and death was substitutionary — it was in our place
and instead of us. Justification comes by the passive acceptance of
what was done on the cross apart from any effort of ours. But the same
thing cannot be said about the inward, sanctifying work of the Spirit.
The Spirit does not replace human effort. He does not substitute for
human obedience. The Christian life is not a matter of refraining from
effort while the Spirit does it all. The Christian life is a struggle,
a race, a fight; and the Spirit stirs the believer up and empowers him
for holy warfare. Faith is not an opiate but a stimulant. It does not
compose us for sleep but for action. As Bishop J. C. Ryle well said,
if this is not the teaching of the Bible, we ought to throw Bunyan's
great allegory, The Pilgrim's Progress, into the fire.

d. Easy Believism. Easy Believism has come about by a gross perversion
of Calvin's doctrine of "the perseverance of the saints." Calvin
taught that the elect would never fall from grace; but he also noted
that the only sign of election was that the believer persevered in the
faith. That Reformed concept is a far cry from the popular notion that
"faith for one moment brings life for eternity."

Justification is possessed only by faith. He who has no present faith
has no present justification. Saving faith is in Christ, not in some
past experience of being born again! There is a popular doctrine which
says that a man can be eternally saved whether he pursues
sanctification or not. But the pursuit of holiness is not optional. He
who does not obey does not believe, and he who does not believe and
keep on believing will not be saved. Says John Murray, former
Professor of Systematic Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary:

Holiness is exemplified in obedience to the commandments of God . . .

The new covenant as an everlasting covenant reaches the zenith of its
realization in this: "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and
he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people" (Revelation
21:3). But we must ask: Do believers continue in this relationship and
in the enjoyment of its blessing irrespective of persevering obedience
to God's commands? It is one of the most perilous distortions of the
doctrine of grace, and one that has carried with it the saddest
records of moral and spiritual disaster, to assume that past
privileges, however high they may be, guarantee the security of men
irrespective of perseverance in faith and holiness . . .

Paul knew well that if he were to attain to the resurrection of the
dead all the resources of Christ's resurrection power must be
operative in him and all the energies of his personality enlisted in
the exercise of those means through which he would apprehend that for
which he was apprehended by Christ Jesus (cf. Philippians 3:10-12).
This is just to say that the goal is not reached, the consummation of
covenant blessing is not achieved in some automatic fashion but
through a process that engages to the utmost the concentrated devotion
of the apostle himself. It is not reached irrespective of
perseverance, but through perseverance. And this means nothing if it
does not mean concentrated obedience to the will of Christ as
expressed in his commandments. We readily see, however, that the
attainment of the goal is not on the meritorious ground of
perseverance and obedience, but through the divinely appointed means
of perseverance. Obedience as the appropriate and necessary expression
of devotion to Christ does not find its place in a covenant of works
or of merit but in a covenant that has its inception and end in pure
grace.—John Murray, Principles of Conduct, pp.199, 200.
We cite a contemporary "evangelical" book to show how a false doctrine
of security can open the door to the most outrageous antinomianism:

Now, when he becomes a believer, the fears that restrained sin are
removed. Often he will go through a period of unrestrained sin or
carnality because he knows he has eternal life, regardless. He no
longer runs scared. During this period, although he is permanently
indwelt by the Spirit, the old sin nature controls his life and the
Spirit is quenched .—The Spirituality of Grace, p.65.
If the carnal or baby believer never understands the doctrine of the
two laws and how to operate under the law of the Spirit of life he can
never begin to move in Phase Two. He is going to operate under the law
of the old sin nature, and without the restraint of fear, he will get
into unrestrained sin and will actually become worse than before he
was saved . . . So they say, 'Goodbye, God, I'll see you in heaven !" —
Ibid., p.67.
While Rome's great error was to confuse justification and
sanctification, many Protestants have gone to the opposite error and
destroyed the close and inseparable relation between justification and
sanctification. The preceding quotation is an example of that.

The churches are full of spiritually dead souls who are asleep in
their sins; yet they content themselves that they are saved because of
some past experience. Dreadful delusion! While legalism is killing its
thousands, these antinomian sentiments are killing their tens of
thousands. We live in the midst of an immoral revolution. We need a
message of sterner stuff. We need to hear God's law, which will give
us a high view of the gospel, and we need that gospel which will give
us a high view of the law. We need to listen to that law which will
point us to Christ as the way of salvation, and to that Christ who
will point us to the law as the way of service. We need to see a
restoration of the third use of the law so that the glorious truth of
justification by faith may have that concrete expression without which
it cannot live.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 J R. Coates, in Preface to Righteousness, by Gottfried OueII &
Gottlob Schrenk.

2 By law as used in this article, we refer to the moral law of God —
every ethical imperative which tells us how to behave, all instruction
about the duty of a Christian, all commandments which show us how to
concretely express our love for God and man.

3 We highly recommend carl Henry's book on Personal Christian Ethics
(Eerdmans) and consider his chapters, "The Law and the Gospel" and
"Christian Ethics Predicated on the Atonement," as especially
excellent.

4 We are using the word hear in the dynamic Hebrew sense of obedient
response.

5 See 1 John 3:4; Girdlestone's Synonyms of the Old Testament on sin
and righteousness, John Murray, Principles of Conduct, p.191.

http://www.presenttruthmag.com/archive/XIII/13-4.htm

guardian Snow...

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:24 am

Guest

We are required by scriptures to warn our brothers of the fact that
their behavior is wrong.

I have to warn you, if you continue to spam me, you are only going to
regret it... I will peal so many layers of your false religion to
shame you... just read this post...

Eze 3:17 â€œSon of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of
Yisraâ€™Ä•l. And you shall hear a word from My mouth, and shall warn them
from Me.

Why do we presume to speak for the Almighty? The applicable words
are, â€œfrom My mouthâ€, have all of you heard the Almighty speaking to
you from his mouth to your ears?

Eze 3:19 â€œBut if you have warned the wrong and he does not turn from
his wrong, nor from his wrong way, he shall die in his crookedness,
and you have delivered your being.

When we speak our peace to other people, we have fulfilled our
obligation to warn our brothers when they are wrong. Why do people
live in judgment of other people when clearly scriptures teach us not
to do this? If we believe somebody is in error, we should speak up
but then,

Pro 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there
is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

Scriptures repeat over and over that we should leave them alone:

Isa 55:7 Let the wrong forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his
thoughts. Let him return to Yahweh, who has compassion on him, and to
our Elohim, for He pardons much. 8 â€œFor My thoughts are not your
thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,â€ declares Yahweh. 9 â€œFor as
the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your
ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.

Let the wrong forsake his way! WOW, you mean itâ€™s not our job to go
around accusing every other person of being the antichrist?

Rev 22:11 â€œHe who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy,
let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more
righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart.

Are we seeing this? He who is wrong, LET HIM DO MORE WRONGâ€¦ This
canâ€™t be true, how could this be in the bible?

Eze 3:27 â€œBut when I speak with you, I open your mouth, and you shall
say to them, â€˜Thus said the Master Yahweh.â€™ He who hears, let him
hear. And he who refuses, let him refuse, for they are a rebellious
house.

He who refuses, â€œLet him refuseâ€â€¦ You mean the idea of leaving people
that you might consider wicked alone isnâ€™t a unique teaching?

Mar 8:33 And turning around and seeing His taught ones, He rebuked
KÄ•pha, saying, â€œGet behind Me, Satan! For your thoughts are not those
of Elohim, but those of men.â€

That our thoughts are not his thoughts arenâ€™t unique is something we
should all consider in our peaceful journey forward. Learning to
respect even those that disagree with us is not something unscriptural
or some fancy new age teaching.

Mat 15:13 But He answering, said, â€œEvery plant which My heavenly
Father has not planted shall be uprooted.
Mat 15:14 â€œLeave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And
if the blind leads the blind, both shall fall into a ditch.â€

Itâ€™s not something only the Messiah taught, itâ€™s Old Testament.

Hos 4:17 â€œEphrayim is joined to idols, let him alone.

I have no doubt that this is a hard teaching to follow for us.. that
we let them be what they are but in doing so, we submit to the
teachings of our scriptures and show by our works, the faith that
motivate our actions.

Hos 4:4 â€œHowever, let no one strive or reprove another, for your
people are like those striving with a priest. 5 â€œAnd you shall
stumble in the day, and the prophet shall also stumble with you in the
night. And I shall make your mother perish. 6 â€œMy people have
perished for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I
reject you from being priest for Me. Since you have forgotten the
Torah of your Elohim, I also forget your children.

Yahweh desires that we know and understand but this does not happen
when we waste our time passing OUR judgment on our other people. The
scriptures are very clear in that we are not to strive with other
people. Now this is not to say that we canâ€™t have a spirited debate
which by the very meaning is righteous, only that it is not our place
to seek to subvert other peoples understandings.

Eze 18:23 â€œHave I any pleasure in the death of the wrong?â€ declares
the Master Yahweh. â€œIs it not that he should turn from his ways, and
live?

I strongly recommend people read Ezekiel especially chapters, 3, 18
and 33 which are all relevant to the topic.

Deu 17:12 â€œAnd the man who acts arrogantly, so as not to listen to the
priest who stands to serve there before Yahweh your Elohim, or to the
judge, that man shall die. So you shall purge the evil from IsraEL.

We have ONE JUDGE and ONE CREATOR who will judge all, donâ€™t try to
think itâ€™s you. Be Humble.

Shalom,
*Â´Â¨)
Â¸.â€¢Â´ Â¸.â€¢*Â´Â¨) Â¸.â€¢*Â¨)
(Â¸.â€¢Â´ (Â¸.â€¢ (Snow(.Â¸.â€¢*Â´Â¨)

Respond directly:
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/

The heart of another is a dark forest, always, no matter how close it
has been to one's own.
Willa Cather

An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation,
nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
Mohandas Gandhi

http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download the scriptures free
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip <--free
download of the Restored Names King James Version

Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other
time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that
we seek.
Barack Obama

guardian Snow...

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:48 am

Guest

On Nov 5, 3:46 pm, singin4free <jffry... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

The
sacrifice of Yeshua was acceptable because it was made by a perfect
sinless individual - God himself. John 3:16.

I would point out to you that John 3 does not say what you think it
reads, in my opinion. I will explain this other view to you but I
realize you do not except my point of view.

Joh 3:13 â€œAnd no one has gone up into the heaven except He who came
down from the heaven â€“ the Son of AdÌ±am.

I would point out that the first distinction is here in his statement
that he is the "Son of Man/Adam". YAHWEH is the creator of man, not
the Son.

Joh 3:14 â€œAnd as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even
so the Son of Adam has to be lifted up,

This next verse goes on to explain why the Messiah was "lifted up" and
makes the comparison to the serpent in the wilderness, which as you
know, had zero to do with forgiveness of sins and everything to do
with being A SYMBOLIC demonstration of the power of Elohim. This idea
of the passion being a demonstration of the power of belief is upheld
â€¦

Joh 3:15 so that whoever is believing in Him should not perish but
possess everlasting life.
Joh 3:16 â€œFor Elohim so loved the world that He gave His only brought-
forth Son, so that everyone who believes in Him should not perish but
possess everlasting life.

If you believe this passage, it does not say anything about removing
sin, it simply states that He is lifted up so that you would believe
when the miracle of the resurrection takes place, men would know and
witness the power of Elohim.

The fact that the Messiah was in fact DEAD, means that he could not of
his own ability raised himself, lest we say the dead are not dead and
we deny the very fact that scriptures emphatically state that he gave
his spirit into his Father's hands.

Luk 23:46 And crying out with a loud voice, YEHOSHUA said, â€œFather,
into Your hands I commit My spirit.â€ And having said this, He breathed
His last. "

And John does say that he was DEAD.

Joh 21:14 This was now the third time YEHOSHUA was manifested to His
taught ones after He was raised from the dead.

The passage says, "He was raised" from the dead by an external power,
not that he raised himself from the dead. Luke in Acts agrees:

Act 4:10 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of
Yisraâ€™Ä•l, that in the Name of YEHOSHUA Messiah of Natsareth, whom you
impaled, whom Elohim raised from the dead, by Him this one stands
before you, healthy.

Again.. another account that specifically points to an external power
of Elohim that raised him from the dead. This pretty much blows your
Trinity and "incarnate" theories out the window but of course you will
refuse to recognize these simple truths... that scriptures do not
agree with you dogmatic mistranslation.

So... I have nor denied anything in the Good News and have in fact
encouraged you to recognize what it actually teaches... that the
Messiah died so that other would believe in the power of Elohim to
raise men of from the dead.

You would have us believing that the dead raise themselves but dead is
DEAD and I have to wonder how long you will deny the Good News in
favor of your dogma! Do you deny he was DEAD? Certainly that idea
denies the scriptures!

Num 6:24 â€œYahweh bless you and guard you;
Num 6:25 Yahweh make His face shine upon you, and show favour to you;
Num 6:26 Yahweh lift up His face upon you, and give you peace.â€ â€™

Shalom,
*Â´Â¨)
Â¸.â€¢Â´ Â¸.â€¢*Â´Â¨) Â¸.â€¢*Â¨)
(Â¸.â€¢Â´ (Â¸.â€¢ (Snow(.Â¸.â€¢*Â´Â¨)
Begin to see yourself as a soul with a body rather than a body with a
soul.
Wayne Dyer

Exo 20:7 â€œYou do not bring the Name of 'Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh [translated
Yahweh] your Elohim to naught, for Yahweh does not leave the one
unpunished who brings His Name to naught.

A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read.
Mark Twain

Respond directly:
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/

http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download scriptures free
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip
Restored Names King James for E-sword

http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/Jubilees.pdf
Book of Jubilees

I believe that being successful means having a balance of success
stories across the many areas of your life. You can't truly be
considered successful in your business life if your home life is in
shambles.
Zig Ziglar

jwsheffield at (no spam) satx.rr.com...

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:32 am

Guest

Chalcedonian Creed
An ancient creed about the Trinity and Jesus Christ.

Circa 451 A.D.

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach
men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at
once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly
man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance
with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one
substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects,
apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before
the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for
our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same
Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without
confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the
distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but
rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming
together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or
separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten
God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest
times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and
the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Creeds/ChalcedonianCreed.htm

Michael James...

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:59 am

Guest

On Nov 5, 11:32 am, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com"
<jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com> wrote:

Quote:

Changing the subject in this thread as well, why don;t you start your
own post with the subject of your choice.
This changing the topic is really bad manners and destroys a thread
that people other than yourself may be following,
It is the kind things people do in fascist dictatorships,

guardian Snow...

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:45 am

Guest

On Nov 6, 7:59 am, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

Quote:

He does this because of FEAR. He is afraid of people of his faith
asking, "If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?" because it blows his
dogma out of the water and gets people to say... Oh Yeah, he did cry
out to his deity on the cross...

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Yahushua cried with a loud voice,
saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My Elohim, my
Elohim, why hast thou forsaken me?

He did sit on the "right hand of power" and he did say that authority
was GIVEN to him... these are all statements that are not consistant
with his dogma that says to worship Jesus instead of his Father in
heaven that he told us to pray to while he was on earth.

He changes it to the most boring topic possible because HE DOESN'T
WANT YOU TO LOOK AT IT. He wants to continue to LIE to you with phony
propaganda that says we should worship the man rather then recognize
the spirit.

Joh 4:24 “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship
in spirit and truth.”

He wants to continue to push his mistranslated scriptures down your
throat and simply avoid conversation that he is UNABLE to refute.

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and
every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt
condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHWH, and their
righteousness is of me, saith YHWH.

Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)

Respond directly:
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/

http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download the scriptures free
or
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip <--free
download of the Restored Names King James Version

Life is a gift, and it offers us the privilege, opportunity, and
responsibility to give something back by becoming more.
Tony Robbins

jwsheffield at (no spam) satx.rr.com...

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:05 pm

Guest

On Nov 5, 2:59 pm, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

Quote:

On Nov 5, 11:32 am, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com"

jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com> wrote:
Chalcedonian Creed
An ancient creed about the Trinity and Jesus Christ.

Circa 451 A.D.

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach
men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at
once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly
man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance
with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one
substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects,
apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before
the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for
our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same
Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without
confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the
distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but
rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming
together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or
separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten
God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest
times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and
the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Creeds/ChalcedonianCreed.htm

Changing the subject in this thread as well, why don;t you start your
own post with the subject of your choice.
This changing the topic is really bad manners and destroys a thread
that people other than yourself may be following,
It is the kind things people do in fascist dictatorships,- Hide quoted text -

I was giving snowjob Christian theology

on the person of Christ.
Instead of defending orthodox Chyristianity
you defend hersy. I guess you hate me more
than you love Christ.

Jim

Col 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the
fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Michael James...

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:15 pm

Guest

On Nov 5, 6:05 pm, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com" <jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com>
wrote:

Quote:

On Nov 5, 2:59 pm, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

On Nov 5, 11:32 am, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com"

jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com> wrote:
Chalcedonian Creed
An ancient creed about the Trinity and Jesus Christ.

Circa 451 A.D.

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach
men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at
once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly
man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance
with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one
substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects,
apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before
the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for
our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same
Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without
confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the
distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but
rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming
together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or
separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten
God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest
times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and
the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Creeds/ChalcedonianCreed.htm

Changing the subject in this thread as well, why don;t you start your
own post with the subject of your choice.
This changing the topic is really bad manners and destroys a thread
that people other than yourself may be following,
It is the kind things people do in fascist dictatorships,- Hide quoted text -

I was giving snowjob Christian theology
on the person of Christ.
Instead of defending orthodox Chyristianity
you defend hersy. I guess you hate me more
than you love Christ.

Jim

Col 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the
fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I defend freedom of speech (something you give lipservice to) and it
is not for you to judge others.

jwsheffield at (no spam) satx.rr.com...

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:15 pm

Guest

On Nov 5, 3:45 pm, guardian Snow <snowpheo... at (no spam) eck.net.au> wrote:

Quote:

On Nov 6, 7:59 am, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

Changing the subject in this thread as well, why don;t you start your
own post with the subject of your choice.
This changing the topic is really bad manners and destroys a thread
that people other than yourself may be following,
It is the kind things people do in fascist dictatorships,

He does this because of FEAR. He is afraid of people of his faith
asking, "If Jesus was DEAD, who raised him?" because it blows his
dogma out of the water and gets people to say... Oh Yeah, he did cry
out to his deity on the cross...

since you don't appear to understand orthodox

Christianity, when you post, I often give an
article by a learned person on the subject.
Sorry, if they go over your head.

Since I am a simple cafone, I drink at
the fountain of church professori, if you
do the same you might learn something, although
I doubt it.

Jim

2Ti 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.

jwsheffield at (no spam) satx.rr.com...

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:22 pm

Guest

On Nov 5, 5:15 pm, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

Quote:

On Nov 5, 6:05 pm, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com" <jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com
wrote:

On Nov 5, 2:59 pm, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

On Nov 5, 11:32 am, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com"

jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com> wrote:
Chalcedonian Creed
An ancient creed about the Trinity and Jesus Christ.

Circa 451 A.D.

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach
men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at
once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly
man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance
with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one
substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects,
apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before
the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for
our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same
Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without
confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the
distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but
rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming
together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or
separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten
God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest
times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and
the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Creeds/ChalcedonianCreed.htm

Changing the subject in this thread as well, why don;t you start your
own post with the subject of your choice.
This changing the topic is really bad manners and destroys a thread
that people other than yourself may be following,
It is the kind things people do in fascist dictatorships,- Hide quoted text -

I was giving snowjob Christian theology
on the person of Christ.
Instead of defending orthodox Chyristianity
you defend hersy. I guess you hate me more
than you love Christ.

Jim

Col 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the
fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I defend freedom of speech (something you give lipservice to) and it
is not for you to judge others.

I never said, you or snowjob should
be denied free speech. The fact is
when I try to defend orthodox Christianity,
you don't help defend orthodoxy.
Look, why don't you explain to snowjob
about the Person of Christ. This might be
wild speculation, but I believe the Church of
Canada accepts the Creed of Calcefon.

Jim

1Co 2:2 - For I determined not to know any thing among you,
save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Michael James...

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:35 pm

Guest

On Nov 5, 6:22 pm, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com" <jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com>
wrote:

Quote:

On Nov 5, 5:15 pm, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

On Nov 5, 6:05 pm, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com" <jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com
wrote:

On Nov 5, 2:59 pm, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

On Nov 5, 11:32 am, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com"

jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com> wrote:
Chalcedonian Creed
An ancient creed about the Trinity and Jesus Christ.

Circa 451 A.D.

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach
men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at
once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly
man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance
with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one
substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects,
apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before
the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for
our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same
Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without
confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the
distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but
rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming
together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or
separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten
God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest
times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and
the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Creeds/ChalcedonianCreed.htm

Changing the subject in this thread as well, why don;t you start your
own post with the subject of your choice.
This changing the topic is really bad manners and destroys a thread
that people other than yourself may be following,
It is the kind things people do in fascist dictatorships,- Hide quoted text -

I was giving snowjob Christian theology
on the person of Christ.
Instead of defending orthodox Chyristianity
you defend hersy. I guess you hate me more
than you love Christ.

Jim

Col 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the
fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I defend freedom of speech (something you give lipservice to) and it
is not for you to judge others.

I never said, you or snowjob should
be denied free speech. The fact is
when I try to defend orthodox Christianity,
you don't help defend orthodoxy.
Look, why don't you explain to snowjob
about the Person of Christ. This might be
wild speculation, but I believe the Church of
Canada accepts the Creed of Calcefon.

Jim

1Co 2:2 - For I determined not to know any thing among you,
save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

you really don'y get.
IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT CREED OF CALCEFON START A THREAD ABOUT IT,
STOP CHANGING THE NAMES OF THREADS

guardian Snow...

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:07 pm

Guest

On Nov 6, 11:35Â am, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

Quote:

On Nov 5, 6:22Â pm, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com" <jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com
wrote:

On Nov 5, 5:15Â pm, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

On Nov 5, 6:05Â pm, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com" <jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com
wrote:

On Nov 5, 2:59Â pm, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

On Nov 5, 11:32Â am, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com"

jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com> wrote:
Chalcedonian Creed
An ancient creed about the Trinity and Jesus Christ.

Circa 451 A.D.

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach
men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at
once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly
man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance
with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one
substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects,
apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before
the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for
our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same
Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without
confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the
distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but
rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming
together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or
separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten
God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest
times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and
the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

Â http://www.apuritansmind.com/Creeds/ChalcedonianCreed.htm

Changing the subject in this thread as well, why don;t you start your
own post with the subject of your choice.
This changing the topic is really bad manners and destroys a Â thread
that people other than yourself may be following,
It is the kind things people do in fascist dictatorships,- Hide quoted text -

Â I was giving snowjob Christian theology
Â on the person of Christ.
Â Â Instead of defending orthodox Chyristianity
Â you defend hersy. I guess you hate me more
Â than you love Christ.

Â Jim

Â Col 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the
Â Â Â Â Â Â fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I defend freedom of speech (something you give lipservice to) and it
is not for you to judge others.

Â I never said, you or snowjob should
Â be denied free speech. The fact is
Â when I try to defend orthodox Christianity,
Â you don't help defend orthodoxy.
Â Â Look, why don't you explain to snowjob
Â about the Person of Christ. This might be
Â wild speculation, but I believe the Church of
Â Canada accepts the Creed of Calcefon.

Â Jim

1Co 2:2 - For I determined not to know any thing among you,
Â Â Â Â Â save Jesus Christ, and him crucified..

you really don'y get.
IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT CREED OF CALCEFON Â START A THREAD ABOUT IT,
STOP CHANGING THE NAMES OF THREADS

Why do Trinity Christians reject the Good News? Then they try to hide
it

Joh 5:24 â€œTruly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and
believes in HIM WHO SENT ME possesses everlasting life, and DOES NOT
come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Because they REJECT the one who sent the Messiah and this is why they
remove his name from scriptures... THAT NAME IS YAHWEH.

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the
name of YAHWEH shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem
shall be deliverance, as YAHWEH hath said, and in the remnant whom
YAHWEH shall call.

It doesn't say all who call on adonai, all who call on baal, all who
call on elohim... THREE times it tells us to call on the name of
YAHWEH. Is it your desire that men not be saved?

Isa 42:8 I am YAHWEH: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to
another, neither my praise to graven images.

There is only ONE.

Mar 12:29 And Yehoshua answered him, The first of all the commandments
is, Hear, O Israel; YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy Elohim with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.

Here we have a direct quote of Deuteronomy so that we can have no
doubt exactly what is said in the Hebrew:

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy Elohim with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Can we have any doubt that Yehoshua made known the name of YAHWEH, his
Fatherâ€™s name.

Exo 3:15 And Elohim said further to Mosheh, â€œThus you are to say to
the children of Yisrael, YAHWEH Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of
AbÌ±raham, the Elohim of YitshÌ£aq, and the Elohim of YaaqobÌ±, has sent
me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My remembrance to all
generations.â€™

This is the ONLY name ever given.

Act 2:21 â€˜And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of
Yahweh shall be saved.â€™

If you would like to comment on this, feel free to add them to this
web page.
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua/web/removing-the-name-of-yhwh

Shalom,
*Â´Â¨)
Â¸.â€¢Â´ Â¸.â€¢*Â´Â¨) Â¸.â€¢*Â¨)
(Â¸.â€¢Â´ (Â¸.â€¢ (Snow(.Â¸.â€¢*Â´Â¨)

http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua <-- please join
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/
If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is
really true, there would be little hope of advance.
Orville Wright

http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download scriptures free
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip <--free
download of the Restored Names King James for E-sword
http://www.e-sword.net/ ïƒŸ Free bible software

If history is any indication, all truths will eventually turn out to
be false.
Dean Kamen

__,
.-'_-'`
.' {`
.-'````'-. .-'``'.
.'(0) '._/ _.-. `\
} '. )) _<` )` |
`-.,\'.\_,.-\` \`---; .' /
) ) '-. '--:
( ' ( ) '. \
'. ) .'( / )
)/ ( '. /
'._( ) .'
gs ( (
`-.

jwsheffield at (no spam) satx.rr.com...

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:31 pm

Guest

On Nov 5, 8:07 pm, guardian Snow <snowpheo... at (no spam) eck.net.au> wrote:

Quote:

On Nov 6, 11:35 am, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

On Nov 5, 6:22 pm, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com" <jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com
wrote:

On Nov 5, 5:15 pm, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

On Nov 5, 6:05 pm, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com" <jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr..com
wrote:

On Nov 5, 2:59 pm, Michael James <michaelrja... at (no spam) videotron.ca> wrote:

On Nov 5, 11:32 am, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com"

jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com> wrote:
Chalcedonian Creed
An ancient creed about the Trinity and Jesus Christ.

Circa 451 A.D.

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach
men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at
once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly
man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance
with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one
substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects,
apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before
the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for
our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same
Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without
confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the
distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but
rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming
together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or
separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten
God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest
times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and
the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Creeds/ChalcedonianCreed.htm

Changing the subject in this thread as well, why don;t you start your
own post with the subject of your choice.
This changing the topic is really bad manners and destroys a thread
that people other than yourself may be following,
It is the kind things people do in fascist dictatorships,- Hide quoted text -

I was giving snowjob Christian theology
on the person of Christ.
Instead of defending orthodox Chyristianity
you defend hersy. I guess you hate me more
than you love Christ.

Jim

Col 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the
fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I defend freedom of speech (something you give lipservice to) and it
is not for you to judge others.

I never said, you or snowjob should
be denied free speech. The fact is
when I try to defend orthodox Christianity,
you don't help defend orthodoxy.
Look, why don't you explain to snowjob
about the Person of Christ. This might be
wild speculation, but I believe the Church of
Canada accepts the Creed of Calcefon.

Jim

1Co 2:2 - For I determined not to know any thing among you,
save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

The Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, one God

raised the man Jesus from the dead.

If you want to undersand the incarnation look up
the Creed of Chalcedon.

Jim

1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know
them, because they are spiritually discerned.

guardian Snow...

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:44 pm

Guest

On Nov 6, 1:31 pm, "jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com" <jwsheffi... at (no spam) satx.rr.com>
wrote:

Quote:

If you want to undersand the incarnation look up
the Creed of Chalcedon.

Creeds and self reflecting, scriptures do not replace the words of the
Messiah himself.

Joh 12:50 And I know that HIS COMMANDMENT IS EVERLASTING LIFE:
whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I
speak.

Joh 12:44 Then Yehoshua cried out and said, “He who believes in Me,
believes NOT IN ME but in Him who sent Me.
Mar 9:37 “Whoever receives one of such little children in My Name
receives Me. And whoever receives Me, RECEIVES ME NOT, but the One WHO
SENT ME.”

Isn't it ironic that it is you that has "not received" and denies the
teaching of the Good News while paying lip service to your dogma.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Yehoshua of Nazareth, a
man approved of YHWH among you by miracles and wonders and signs,
which YHWH did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and
foreknowledge of YHWH, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have
crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom YHWH hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death:
because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Num 23:19 El is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man,
that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath
he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Joh 4:24 “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship
in spirit and truth.”
Mal 3:6 For I am YHWH, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are
not consumed.

Joh 5:37 “And the Father WHO SENT ME, He bore witness of Me. You have
neither heard His voice at any time, NOR SEEN HIS FORM.

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