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| Anna... |
 Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:21 pm |
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A blog discussing how nudity is used in Wicca.
http://robjo.wordpress.com/2009/03/16/magick-au-natural-or-skyclad-a-primer/
http://tinyurl.com/ygnr8eb
Magick Au Natural (or Skyclad), A Primer
What is Skyclad Magick
Skyclad Magick is any working which is done nude (in other words clad
only by the sky, although the term also encompasses indoor workings,
which semantically should be called tracklightclad), whether these
workings are done as a group or as solitary workings.
Skyclad also encompasses several different definitions. Some define
Skyclad, most basically, as being without any kind of clothing. Others
define it as also being without make-up, perfumes, deodorant, or
shampoo. And others include those clothed in body paint as being
skyclad.
The History of Skyclad
It’d be nice if there was a long and revered history of ritual nudity
to point to in arguing for skyclad practices, but none really exists.
Although we see nudity practiced in some obscure forms of Eastern
religions, we don’t see it in any of the ones that have had a major
influence on the west. In the western world we can suppose that there
has, in the past, been ritual nudity. Humans were most likely
practicing some sort of ritual prior to the invention of clothing. We
do know some of the Greeks and Romans were rather decadent and liked
there orgies, and that there were probably some spiritual undertones
in some of there orgy havings. But whatever was done then is largely
lost, and we don’t see any clear lineage from those earlier rituals
(which were small and minority rituals) up to the modern day.
Until the middle of the 20th century, Western occultism was practiced
clothed. There is no evidence that traditional witches ever practiced
in the nude. Ceremonial magicians have always practiced clothed. Even
Allister Crowley, known for combining his sexual wants with his ritual
practices, never managed to get into nude rituals, more than likely
because he was too busy trying to convince male friends to have anal
intercourse with him for reasons that meant he was still entirely
heterosexual. There are some spells in the old grimoires that were
meant to make groups of women or groups of people dance around in the
nude, but that was not a part of the ritual, but rather the end result
of it, after which the practitioner could then watch them dancing in
the nude.
Skyclad magick and ritual nudity was pretty much spearheaded by Gerald
Gardener, the founder of Wicca. The theological basis for Gardener’s
skyclad rituals were based in negative Christian folklore about
witches which supposed them to do secret nude rituals, and also in a
mistranslation of a line in the Arcadia of the Witches. It should be
noted though that Gardener had a host of sexual fetishes, and that he
used his spiritual position as a founder of a religion in order to
recruit willing partners to participate in his fantasies which also
included female domination and sado-machosism, and that he would grasp
at spiritual straws to justify these acts.
After Gardener had come along, a lot of other folks started
incorporating skyclad rituals into their own religions. Skyclad
rituals meshed very well with the hippie movement that eventually
invaded and took over most of the neopagan religions and also liked
running around naked.
In recent years skyclad practices have largely fallen out of vogue.
Even many Gardnerian Wiccans, who claim to practice the original form
of Wicca created by Gardener, don’t practice skyclad, and they don’t
follow a lot of Gardener’s more sexualized practices either. Most of
the rituals that were originally meant to be done in the nude are now
done clothed.
The Magick of Equality: Does Nudity Make Us Equals
A point generally brought up by pro-skyclad Wiccans is that nudity
makes us equals. We no longer have the class system attached to us. We
aren’t separated between those who can afford nice clothes and those
who can’t. This lack of separation would also happen if we replaced
naked with modest robes.
Unfortunately beyond flashy clothes, skyclad doesn’t do much to make
us equals. Some people are still pretty, and some are fat, and no
amount of clothing, or lack thereof, is going to help the situation.
Some of us are going to be more powerful than others. The regular
religious hierarchies that exist tend to exist while naked the same as
when clothed.
Cloth & Color: A Minor Variable Sidestepped
It should be noted that the most magickal possessions most people
possess (other than their bed), are their clothes. Experienced
practitioners are more likely than most to have an object which puts
their clothes to shame, but at the same time their clothes are going
to be even more magickal than what is typical among non-practitioners.
Our emotion and our energy, through out the day, taints our clothes.
Washing our clothes helps, although it doesn’t nearly do enough
insofar as cleansing them. The longer the clothes have been worn, the
more powerful they may be. And our clothes, in turn, may taint or
otherwise affect both ourselves or the ritual. When we enter a ritual
clothed, we’re never entering a ritual clean. Many books recommend not
only preritual baths and cleansings, but also special clean garments
only adorned during ritual for this very reason.
Secondly, color is another variable. Some practitioners discard color
altogether because it is not as strong a symbolism as some would like.
Color does however have an, albeit minor, effect on magick workings.
Some books and practitioners swear by being draped in the proper
colors for the spell at hand.
However clothing and color are both minor variables in determining the
success and power of ones magick. Neither is so great a factor that it
can’t be overcome, or can only be over come with great effort. There
are of course exceptions. Sometimes an article of clothing can become
so energized that it will have a very serious effect on the ritual.
However this problem can be solved simply by wearing something else.
Still, it should be noted that these things can affect ritual, and
that by practicing skyclad these variables no longer need to be
considered.
Simplicity, Primality, Transformation, and Butt-Nakedness
Nakedness is our most natural state of dress. It’s how we come into
this world. It’s how we survived as a species prior to the advent of
clothing. Our clothing ads another layer to ourselves, another level
of complexity. Typically within magick and ritual one moves towards
simplicity rather than complexity, one tries to remove as many layers
from the problem as possible. Simplicity is seen as the better and
more powerful state, the natural state of things within the universe,
and it’s easiest to work ones will when that will is worked in the
natural directions of the universe, not against it.
Naked, being both our natural state and primary state, allows us to
become more primal in our being. For some being naked means tapping
into a more primary, animalistic state. For others it is just being
more free, less inhibited, and a closer approximation to their true
self. In any case, in this state a practitioner’s energy is more raw,
less encumbered and tainted, and the practitioner experiences a
greater degree of focus and their will and desires are better focused,
all of this making spellwork easier and more successful.
Finally some practitioners may use nudity as a trigger to transform
them from one state to another. To move from their normal selves to
their more magickal selves. To help them cast away, temporarily, their
anchors and ties into the real and solid world and move into a less
solid more magickal state where more things are possible. Conditioned
properly, a practitioner can see a dramatic transformation between a
clothed and naked state, and can amass this power with less work than
what would typically be required. However one should be careful
utilizing this method. There are definite drawbacks to not being able
to tap most of your power unless you’re naked.
Intimacy, Nudity, and Bonding
Most people see nudity as an intimate act. For most of us, the first
people of an opposite gender who saw us naked after puberty started
was a person who we engaged in some intimate carnal act with. For most
of us, most of the people of the opposite gender who see us naked are
people we are intimately involved with. For a lot of people, nudity is
directly tied to sex. For a lot of people, casual and non-utilitarian
nudity is only something that occurs between two people who are
sexually involved with each other.
The point being, for a large part nudity and intimacy are one in the
same. Therefor when a ritual is performed skyclad there is an added
degree of intimacy between the participants, even if they don’t know
each other very well. With a regular group, this intimacy helps with
group bonding. But even with strangers who will never meet again,
nudity will help them connect together, become one, and work the
ritual as a single whole rather than a group of individuals. The
individual members will also find it easier to connect to one and
another, and psychic links will more easily form between them, once
again making it easier for the individuals to work as a group.
Symbolism of Nudity and Opening the 3rd Eye
When we’re naked, we’re exposed. We’ve completely opened ourselves up
and exposed ourselves to everything in the nearby area. This is a
literal truth on the physical level. But is also symbolic of opening
ourselves up and exposing ourselves emotionally (thus intimacy, as
explained above), and also opening ourselves up spiritually. Being
naked is symbolic of letting down a shield, and both exposing
ourselves and opening ourselves up to our surrounding environment.
Especially when the symbolism of the event is acknowledged, this will
make it easier for the practitioner to experience the metaphysical.
For lack of a better way to describe it, it will make them more
psychic and more empathic.
Sacred Nudity and Reverence
Most of us, when we present ourselves to a god, we want to present
ourselves in an acceptable way. The situation may not always allow
this. We might need to contact a deity right now, and we can’t wait to
take a shower or dress ourselves properly. The gods understand this.
But a lot for the time we do have time. And then there’s the question
of how should we present ourselves. Likewise even when we don’t use a
god, when we do magick most of us would like to present ourselves in a
way that is becoming of the sacredness of the event.
If we have sacred clothes, like ceremonial robes, this might do. If
not, we’d usually lean towards nice, clean clothes. What nice means
though would be very subjective. Some might define that as expensive
suits and dresses. Others as unfaded jeans and a favorite t-shirt.
Some will argue that you should always address the gods in Renfair
costumes, regardless of the fact that almost every god predates the
renaissance style of dress, the style was only in vogue in certain
regions of Western Europe and is thus regionally inappropriate for
most gods, and that Renfair costumes typically lack accuracy.
Nudity is, however, always appropriate for presentation to a deity or
a sacred event. Nudity is a sacred state of being. As already
mentioned it’s how we come into this world. When we disrobe we’re also
gracing those around us with the beauty of our physical form. We are
making a sacrifice of our modesty so that others may take pleasure in
our natural form. We are showing reverence to and making a gift to
those around us, be they other humans, entities, or gods. When we are
naked, we’re always in a sacred state. The sacredness of that state is
only lost when we attempt to hide or cover ourselves, or when we try
to stop or otherwise punish others for looking at us or particular
body parts, staring at us, or having impure thoughts about us. When we
disrobe and present ourselves as such it is a sacred gift given onto
the recipient, to be used as they please and not to be taken back.
Nudity and Sexual Energy
Nudity can be utilized within ritual in order to raise sexual energy.
When you get a bunch of people together, running around naked, they
start getting horny, and before long you get a bunch of sexual energy
that can be used and manipulated in the spellwork. For best results
you want as many pretty people, both men and women, in the group as
possible. Pretty people turn other people on. Ugly people may turn
other people on, but not as much. Youth is also good, young people
tend to have much stronger sex drives and more sexually repressed
energy. You may also have much better results if participants agree to
refrain from sexual acts or masturbation for a period preceding the
ritual. Three days is a good amount of time. Likewise you’ll get
better results if flirting and some petting is allowed during the time
of the ritual, of course you don’t want anyone having orgasms during
the ritual, since that would be counterproductive, you just want them
getting about as close as you can get them.
In a setting like this, energy can easily be raised, even among those
who are not very good at energy manipulation, by normally mundane acts
like dancing around each other and various games and activities that
involve touching and caressing each other.
Orgies
Generally, if you want to raise sexual energy, don’t have sex. There
is a point within an orgasm when the energy will hit peak and will be
at its strongest for the individual. This only lasts for a moment
though, and grasping and manipulating this energy is a difficult feat.
It can be done, but it is typically beyond the ability of most
practitioners and beyond the scope of most rituals. But there are
other things that can be done with ritual orgies, everything from
connecting the group as one to amassing the energies to some ends to
simply reveling in a state of primal and uncompromising sexual ecstasy
and desire. I do think that this is, however, far to vast an area to
go into detail in the scope of this essay.
Being Naked — Just Because
Of course there is something to be said for being naked just because.
It is a sacred state of being, and so being naked is sacred. It can be
its own ends, rather than a means to something else. It can be a
spiritual experience in and of itself. Or possibly just something one
enjoys doing. To be exposed, open, uninhibited, intimate, free,
primal, and sacred all at once. |
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| Sizzle Flambé... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:17 pm |
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Guest
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Quote: It’d be nice if there was a long and revered history of ritual nudity
to point to in arguing for skyclad practices, but none really exists.
*sigh* The writer is unaware that the term "skyclad" is a translation
of the Sanskrit term दिगंबर "digambara" (clad by the sky), used of the
traditional nudity of Jains, known even to Alexander the Great as
"gymnosophists" (nude philosophers, or naked wise men).
Quote: Although we see nudity practiced in some obscure forms of Eastern
religions, we don’t see it in any of the ones that have had a major
influence on the west.
Such as the peace-giving Olympic Games, performed in the nude.
Gymastics -- again that "gymn-" stem indicates nudity.
Quote: In the western world we can suppose that there
has, in the past, been ritual nudity.
Well, yes, as for instance in "Aradia, Gospel of the Witches":
And as the sign that ye are truly free,
Ye shall be naked in your rites, both men
And women also....
Quote: Until the middle of the 20th century, Western occultism was practiced
clothed.
"Aradia" was published in 1899.
Quote: There is no evidence that traditional witches ever practiced
in the nude.
To the same extent there is no evidence of "traditional witches" at
all.
Yet the meme of "dancing naked in the woods" goes along with
witchcraft.
Quote: Ceremonial magicians have always practiced clothed.
A set that used to be disjunct from "witches": far more likely to be
(a) solitary, (b) indoors, and (c) very orderly and organized.
Quote: Even Allister Crowley....
_Aleister_ Crowley....
Quote: Gerald Gardener, the founder of Wicca.
Gerald _Gardner_....
If you're going to lecture people on what they've got wrong,
please do try to get a few things right yourself. Please. |
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| Anna... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:00 am |
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Guest
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| Sizzle Flambé... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:11 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 30, 3:27 am, "Rob" <rober... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: "Sizzle Flambé" <sizzle.fla... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a81f417c-a4f5-428b-a8b7-b64773a79ace at (no spam) v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com....
It'd be nice if there was a long and revered history of ritual nudity
to point to in arguing for skyclad practices, but none really exists.
*sigh* The writer is unaware that the term "skyclad" is a translation
of the Sanskrit term ?????? "digambara" (clad by the sky), used of the
traditional nudity of Jains, known even to Alexander the Great as
"gymnosophists" (nude philosophers, or naked wise men).
Janism = Obscure Eastern Religion that didn't influence western practices.
Other than the very word "skyclad" being adopted by westerners?
Quote: Although we see nudity practiced in some obscure forms of Eastern
religions, we don't see it in any of the ones that have had a major
influence on the west.
Such as the peace-giving Olympic Games, performed in the nude.
Gymastics -- again that "gymn-" stem indicates nudity.
And the olympic games have effected western spiritual practices how?
Popularized modern nudism, e.g. FKK and other naturist societies.
Quote: In the western world we can suppose that there
has, in the past, been ritual nudity.
Well, yes, as for instance in "Aradia, Gospel of the Witches":
And as the sign that ye are truly free,
Ye shall be naked in your rites, both men
And women also....
A well known mistranslation.
Yet popularizing the idea, again.
Quote: Until the middle of the 20th century, Western occultism was practiced
clothed.
"Aradia" was published in 1899.
There is no evidence that traditional witches ever practiced
in the nude.
To the same extent there is no evidence of "traditional witches" at
all.
You mean other than the fact that I talk to a generational practitioner of
traditional witchcraft three or four times a week and I'm going to his
Halloween party tomorrow?
So famtrad *now* is evidence of famtrad in the 17th, 18th, or 19th C?
Quote: Traditional witchcraft is a valid spiritual practice that can be verified at
least a few hundred years back, although it was largely hidden until the
repeal of the witchcraft laws in the 1950s. Several famous traditional
witches were instrumental in the formation and later development of the
Wiccan religion.
Yet the meme of "dancing naked in the woods" goes along with
witchcraft.
No, it doesn't. Early in Wicca's life many traditional witches were very
much against Wiccan skyclad practices.
"Early in *Wicca*'s life"?! And what about 350 years earler?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baldung_Hexen_1508_kol.JPG
Quote: Ceremonial magicians have always practiced clothed.
A set that used to be disjunct from "witches": far more likely to be
(a) solitary, (b) indoors, and (c) very orderly and organized.
I am not a Wiccan nor do I write to a primarly Wiccan audience dumbass.
Nor are those lovely ladies likely to have been Wiccans.
Quote: Even Allister Crowley....
_Aleister_ Crowley....
Gerald Gardener, the founder of Wicca.
Gerald _Gardner_....
Grammer Nazis are the scum of Usenet.
If you're going to lecture people on what they've got wrong,
please do try to get a few things right yourself. Please.
Maybe you should learn about your own FUCKING RELIGION so you don't portray
Wiccans as completely ignorrant. And stay the fuck off my blog.
(1) I'm not Wiccan, (2) It's spelled "ignorant", (3) This isn't your
blog. |
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| Sizzle Flambé... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:24 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 30, 3:27Â am, "Rob" <rober... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: "Sizzle Flambé" <sizzle.fla... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
It'd be nice if there was a long and revered history of ritual nudity
to point to in arguing for skyclad practices, but none really exists.
*sigh* The writer is unaware that the term "skyclad" is a translation
of the Sanskrit term दिगंबर "digambara" (clad by the sky), used of the
traditional nudity of Jains, known even to Alexander the Great as
"gymnosophists" (nude philosophers, or naked wise men).
Janism = Obscure Eastern Religion that didn't influence western practices.
Other than the very word "skyclad" being adopted by westerners?
Quote: Although we see nudity practiced in some obscure forms of Eastern
religions, we don't see it in any of the ones that have had a major
influence on the west.
Such as the peace-giving Olympic Games, performed in the nude.
Gymastics -- again that "gymn-" stem indicates nudity.
And the olympic games have effected western spiritual practices how?
Popularized nudism, e.g. FKK and other modern naturist societies.
Quote: In the western world we can suppose that there
has, in the past, been ritual nudity.
Well, yes, as for instance in "Aradia, Gospel of the Witches":
  And as the sign that ye are truly free,
  Ye shall be naked in your rites, both men
  And women also....
A well known mistranslation.
Yet popularizing the idea, again.
Quote: Until the middle of the 20th century, Western occultism was practiced
clothed.
"Aradia" was published in 1899.
There is no evidence that traditional witches ever practiced
in the nude.
To the same extent there is no evidence of "traditional witches" at
all.
You mean other than the fact that I talk to a generational practitioner of
traditional witchcraft three or four times a week and I'm going to his
Halloween party tomorrow?
So famtrad *now* is evidence of famtrad in the 17th, 18th, or 19th C?
Quote: Traditional witchcraft is a valid spiritual practice that can be verified at
least a few hundred years back, although it was largely hidden until the
repeal of the witchcraft laws in the 1950s. Several famous traditional
witches were instrumental in the formation and later development of the
Wiccan religion.
Yet the meme of "dancing naked in the woods" goes along with
witchcraft.
No, it doesn't. Early in Wicca's life many traditional witches were very
much against Wiccan skyclad practices.
"Early in *Wicca*'s life"?! And what about 450 years earler?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baldung_Hexen_1508_kol.JPG>
Quote: Ceremonial magicians have always practiced clothed.
A set that used to be disjunct from "witches": far more likely to be
(a) solitary, (b) indoors, and (c) very orderly and organized.
I am not a Wiccan nor do I write to a primarly Wiccan audience dumbass.
Nor are those lovely ladies likely to have been Wiccans.
Quote: Even Allister Crowley....
_Aleister_ Crowley....
Gerald Gardener, the founder of Wicca.
Gerald _Gardner_....
Grammer Nazis are the scum of Usenet.
If you're going to lecture people on what they've got wrong,
please do try to get a few things right yourself. Please.
Maybe you should learn about your own FUCKING RELIGION so you don't portray
Wiccans as completely ignorrant. And stay the fuck off my blog.
(1) I'm not Wiccan,
(2) It's spelled "ignorant",
(3) This isn't your blog. |
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| Rob... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:27 am |
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Guest
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Quote:
"Sizzle Flambé" <sizzle.flambe at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a81f417c-a4f5-428b-a8b7-b64773a79ace at (no spam) v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
It'd be nice if there was a long and revered history of ritual nudity
to point to in arguing for skyclad practices, but none really exists.
*sigh* The writer is unaware that the term "skyclad" is a translation
of the Sanskrit term ?????? "digambara" (clad by the sky), used of the
traditional nudity of Jains, known even to Alexander the Great as
"gymnosophists" (nude philosophers, or naked wise men).
Janism = Obscure Eastern Religion that didn't influence western practices.
Quote: Although we see nudity practiced in some obscure forms of Eastern
religions, we don't see it in any of the ones that have had a major
influence on the west.
Such as the peace-giving Olympic Games, performed in the nude.
Gymastics -- again that "gymn-" stem indicates nudity.
And the olympic games have effected western spiritual practices how?
Quote: In the western world we can suppose that there
has, in the past, been ritual nudity.
Well, yes, as for instance in "Aradia, Gospel of the Witches":
And as the sign that ye are truly free,
Ye shall be naked in your rites, both men
And women also....
A well known mistranslation.
Quote: Until the middle of the 20th century, Western occultism was practiced
clothed.
"Aradia" was published in 1899.
There is no evidence that traditional witches ever practiced
in the nude.
To the same extent there is no evidence of "traditional witches" at
all.
You mean other than the fact that I talk to a generational practitioner of
traditional witchcraft three or four times a week and I'm going to his
Halloween party tomorrow?
Traditional witchcraft is a valid spiritual practice that can be verified at
least a few hundred years back, although it was largely hidden until the
repeal of the witchcraft laws in the 1950s. Several famous traditional
witches were instrumental in the formation and later development of the
Wiccan religion.
Quote: Yet the meme of "dancing naked in the woods" goes along with
witchcraft.
No, it doesn't. Early in Wicca's life many traditional witches were very
much against Wiccan skyclad practices.
Quote: Ceremonial magicians have always practiced clothed.
A set that used to be disjunct from "witches": far more likely to be
(a) solitary, (b) indoors, and (c) very orderly and organized.
I am not a Wiccan nor do I write to a primarly Wiccan audience dumbass.
Quote: Even Allister Crowley....
_Aleister_ Crowley....
Gerald Gardener, the founder of Wicca.
Gerald _Gardner_....
Grammer Nazis are the scum of Usenet.
Quote: If you're going to lecture people on what they've got wrong,
please do try to get a few things right yourself. Please.
Maybe you should learn about your own FUCKING RELIGION so you don't portray
Wiccans as completely ignorrant. And stay the fuck off my blog. |
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| Noinden... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:41 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 30, 6:55 am, "David Looser" <david.loo... at (no spam) btinternet.com>
wrote:
Quote: "Witchcraft" before the 20th C was largely an invention of the Christian
Church, a way of denigrating the pagan religions that it supplanted.
Unfortunately so successful was the Church in replacing those religions that
we know next to nothing about most of them (not helped by those religions
own failure to record their beliefs and rituals). There are people today who
call themselves "Druids", but they know no more about the real historical
Druidism than I do.
David.
Yep you will find that none of the "Fam Trad" witches can actually
back up the claims of their lines before Uncle Gerry started the
movement ;)
Ok actually a lot of Neopagan Druids know a hell of a lot about the
Druidic caste (there was no historical Druidism, Druid was a position
not a religion!) But I am picking at minor things. MOST Neopagan
Druids fully acknowledge we are not “real” Druids, and we are using
Druidism in the manner that Hinduism was once called Brahmanism. Not
all Hindu are Brahman. |
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| David Looser... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:55 am |
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Guest
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"Rob" <robertjo at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MrxGm.2458$zr.2282 at (no spam) newsfe04.iad...
Quote:
"Sizzle Flambé" <sizzle.flambe at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote
To the same extent there is no evidence of "traditional witches" at
all.
You mean other than the fact that I talk to a generational practitioner of
traditional witchcraft three or four times a week and I'm going to his
Halloween party tomorrow?
Traditional witchcraft is a valid spiritual practice that can be verified
at least a few hundred years back,
Really? I'd be interested to see if you could offer any evidence to support
that assertion.
Quote: although it was largely hidden until the repeal of the witchcraft laws in
the 1950s. Several famous traditional witches were instrumental in the
formation and later development of the Wiccan religion.
"Witchcraft" before the 20th C was largely an invention of the Christian
Church, a way of denigrating the pagan religions that it supplanted.
Unfortunately so successful was the Church in replacing those religions that
we know next to nothing about most of them (not helped by those religions
own failure to record their beliefs and rituals). There are people today who
call themselves "Druids", but they know no more about the real historical
Druidism than I do.
David. |
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| Noinden... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:41 am |
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On Oct 30, 10:27 am, "David Looser" <david.loo... at (no spam) btinternet.com>
wrote:
Quote: "Noinden" <noin... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote
Yep you will find that none of the "Fam Trad" witches can actually
back up the claims of their lines before Uncle Gerry started the
movement 
Ok actually a lot of Neopagan Druids know a hell of a lot about the
Druidic caste
How?, by a sort of "sixth sense" or what? The only historical information
available are the odd hints from Roman writers (who were hostile to it
anyway).
There are insular Celtic hints as well.
Quote: (there was no historical Druidism, Druid was a position
not a religion!)
There *was* historical Druidism! it wasn't a "religion" in the sense that
modern Christianity is and I agree that being a "Druid" was a position, but
they were, in effect, the priestly class of Celtic society. There was belief
and ritual associated with it, which is lost to us.
No there was not ism implies it is a religion. They were the
INTELECTUAL caste of the various western Celtic tribes. There were
Druids. Not Druidism.
Quote: MOST Neopagan
Druids fully acknowledge we are not “real” Druids,
I'm glad to hear it. So why hijack the name of a real historical group? Why
not call yourselves something else?
Many of us do. Go ask the 18th century revivalists why they choose the
name ;)
Quote: Druidism in the manner that Hinduism was once called Brahmanism. Not
all Hindu are Brahman.
The difference being that we know about Hinduism, we know next to nothing
about the spiritual beliefs and practices of the Druids.
If you say so.
You have an axe to grind. Goof for you. However if you are truly
interested in talking about this. Come to alt.religion.druid (and no
don’t cross post this there, that is for spineless wankers) and ask.
Slan leat (don’t let the door hit you on the way out) |
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| David Looser... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:27 am |
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"Noinden" <noinden at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote
Quote: Yep you will find that none of the "Fam Trad" witches can actually
back up the claims of their lines before Uncle Gerry started the
movement ;)
Ok actually a lot of Neopagan Druids know a hell of a lot about the
Druidic caste
How?, by a sort of "sixth sense" or what? The only historical information
available are the odd hints from Roman writers (who were hostile to it
anyway).
Quote: (there was no historical Druidism, Druid was a position
not a religion!)
There *was* historical Druidism! it wasn't a "religion" in the sense that
modern Christianity is and I agree that being a "Druid" was a position, but
they were, in effect, the priestly class of Celtic society. There was belief
and ritual associated with it, which is lost to us.
Quote: MOST Neopagan
Druids fully acknowledge we are not “real” Druids,
I'm glad to hear it. So why hijack the name of a real historical group? Why
not call yourselves something else?
and we are using
Quote: Druidism in the manner that Hinduism was once called Brahmanism. Not
all Hindu are Brahman.
The difference being that we know about Hinduism, we know next to nothing
about the spiritual beliefs and practices of the Druids.
David. |
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| David Looser... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:39 pm |
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"Noinden" <noinden at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:463165ab-ccf9-42ee-8fb6-31236bab8048 at (no spam) p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 30, 10:27 am, "David Looser" <david.loo... at (no spam) btinternet.com>
wrote:
Quote: "Noinden" <noin... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote
Ok actually a lot of Neopagan Druids know a hell of a lot about the
Druidic caste
How?, by a sort of "sixth sense" or what? The only historical information
available are the odd hints from Roman writers (who were hostile to it
anyway).
There are insular Celtic hints as well.
How was that achieved, bearing in mind that the Celts were a non-literate
people? And even if it *were* true a few hints hardly justifies anyone in
claiming to know "a hell of a lot".
Quote: (there was no historical Druidism, Druid was a position
not a religion!)
There *was* historical Druidism! it wasn't a "religion" in the sense that
modern Christianity is and I agree that being a "Druid" was a position,
but
they were, in effect, the priestly class of Celtic society. There was
belief
and ritual associated with it, which is lost to us.
No there was not ism implies it is a religion. They were the
INTELECTUAL caste of the various western Celtic tribes. There were
Druids. Not Druidism.
Talk about splitting hairs! OK, there were historical *Druids*. But where do
you get the idea that they were the "INTELLECTUAL caste" from? (rather than
the priestly caste).
Quote: MOST Neopagan
Druids fully acknowledge we are not "real" Druids,
I'm glad to hear it. So why hijack the name of a real historical group?
Why
not call yourselves something else?
Many of us do. Go ask the 18th century revivalists why they choose the
name
Many of you do what? As for asking the 18th C revivalists, I wasn't aware
they were still around to ask.
Quote:
The difference being that we know about Hinduism, we know next to nothing
about the spiritual beliefs and practices of the Druids.
If you say so.
Well you certainly haven't provided any evidence to the contrary.
Quote: You have an axe to grind.
I do? Having an opinion means I have an "axe to grind" does it?.
Quote: Goof for you. However if you are truly
interested in talking about this. Come to alt.religion.druid
Interesting that although you insist that there can not have been a
historical "Druidism" as it wasn't a religion, there is, nevertheless a
newsgroup called "alt.religion.druid".
Quote: (and no
don't cross post this there, that is for spineless wankers)
It is? is there any good reason for you saying that? (any any good reasobn
for using such language?)
I've lurked in it. It seems to be much the same as any other newsgroup, full
of people disagreeing with each other. Would I get a sensible answer to any
question I asked? or, as I strongly suspect, would I get a lot of heat and
very little light?
I did, however, discover this:-
<quote>
Quote: The historic druids first emerged two millenniums ago around the Iron
Age and evidence which remains of their existence and rituals is
unreliable. Pliny is a mine of misinformation and Caesar, the only
writer who might have seen the original druids, is an unusually
devious and self -interested witness. There is not, it transpires, a
single fact, artefact or image that can be securely related to druidry
before the early modern period. We know nothing about the original
druids at all. So when people talk about 'ritual' and 'ceremony' they
are just blowing so much hot air if they are claiming it is in any way
true to what the original druids would have practiced. The truth is we
do not know and we cannot know.
unquote
Pretty much sums it up.
David. |
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| Lane... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:13 pm |
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"David Looser" <david.looser at (no spam) btinternet.com> wrote in
news:7l3eigF3cfehcU1 at (no spam) mid.individual.net:
Quote: "Noinden" <noinden at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:463165ab-ccf9-42ee-8fb6-31236bab8048
at (no spam) p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com.
.. On Oct 30, 10:27 am, "David Looser" <david.loo... at (no spam) btinternet.com
wrote:
"Noinden" <noin... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote
Ok actually a lot of Neopagan Druids know a hell of a lot about
the Druidic caste
How?, by a sort of "sixth sense" or what? The only historical
information available are the odd hints from Roman writers (who were
hostile to it anyway).
There are insular Celtic hints as well.
How was that achieved, bearing in mind that the Celts were a
non-literate people? And even if it *were* true a few hints hardly
justifies anyone in claiming to know "a hell of a lot".
<yawn> Anyone else as bored by this ridiculously arcane discussion as
me?
David, you no doubt have better things to which to apply your
considerable intellect.
Just saying.
--
Lane |
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| Sizzle Flambé... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:04 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 12:39 pm, "David Looser" <david.loo... at (no spam) btinternet.com>
wrote:
Quote: How was that achieved, bearing in mind that the Celts
were a non-literate people?
Er, not so. Even Caesar refers to their using Greek characters
for writing, though the Druids did not entrust their *secret*
teachings to writing. But other matters, like books of law,
were written, and transcribed, as into Latin in Patrick's time.
Quote: Talk about splitting hairs! OK, there were historical *Druids*.
But where do you get the idea that they were the "INTELLECTUAL
caste" from? (rather than the priestly caste).
In that it included learned but non-priestly roles like
the Brehons (judges, lawgivers); scholars; doctors. |
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| Sizzle Flambé... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:25 am |
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On Nov 1, 6:04 am, "David Looser" <david.loo... at (no spam) btinternet.com> wrote:
Quote: "Sizzle Flambé" <sizzle.fla... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 12:39 pm, "David Looser" <david.loo... at (no spam) btinternet.com
wrote:
How was that achieved, bearing in mind that the Celts
were a non-literate people?
Er, not so. Even Caesar refers to their using Greek characters
for writing, though the Druids did not entrust their *secret*
teachings to writing. But other matters, like books of law,
were written, and transcribed, as into Latin in Patrick's time.
OK, I accept the correction. Nevertheless my original point; that we know
next to nothing about the historical Druids, and the religious beliefs and
rituals of the Celtic society of which they were a part, remains.
I think Noinden said "insular Celtic *hints*", not "full scripts",
nor "footnoted volumes from the Druidic academies of old", so
perhaps you and he are not disagreeing on this point.
Quote: Talk about splitting hairs! OK, there were historical *Druids*.
But where do you get the idea that they were the "INTELLECTUAL
caste" from? (rather than the priestly caste).
In that it included learned but non-priestly roles like
the Brehons (judges, lawgivers); scholars; doctors.
Again I'm not convinced that we know enough about them to be able to say
that. The Romans made a very good job of destroying the cultures of those
peoples they conquered (much as the early Christian Church did with the
pagan religions). Any idea that we can somehow or other re-discover and
re-invent these pre-Roman cultures is pure wishful thinking.
That might possibly be why Noinden specified "*insular* Celtic hints",
e.g. the Irish, whom the Romans never conquered, unlike the Gauls. |
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| David Looser... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:04 am |
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Guest
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"Sizzle Flambé" <sizzle.flambe at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e48f0f40-04ce-4647-aa9e-ad35ba3837c1 at (no spam) z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 31, 12:39 pm, "David Looser" <david.loo... at (no spam) btinternet.com>
wrote:
Quote: How was that achieved, bearing in mind that the Celts
were a non-literate people?
Er, not so. Even Caesar refers to their using Greek characters
for writing, though the Druids did not entrust their *secret*
teachings to writing. But other matters, like books of law,
were written, and transcribed, as into Latin in Patrick's time.
OK, I accept the correction. Nevertheless my original point; that we know
next to nothing about the historical Druids, and the religious beliefs and
rituals of the Celtic society of which they were a part, remains.
Quote: Talk about splitting hairs! OK, there were historical *Druids*.
But where do you get the idea that they were the "INTELLECTUAL
caste" from? (rather than the priestly caste).
In that it included learned but non-priestly roles like
the Brehons (judges, lawgivers); scholars; doctors.
Again I'm not convinced that we know enough about them to be able to say
that. The Romans made a very good job of destroying the cultures of those
peoples they conquered (much as the early Christian Church did with the
pagan religions). Any idea that we can somehow or other re-discover and
re-invent these pre-Roman cultures is pure wishful thinking.
David. |
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