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 Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:12 am |
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http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/jay_wilson/jay_wilson.starbucks.html
James (Jay) Wilson
This paper is about a fictional encounter I had with Ed while studying
in Starbucks. One of the things I love about studying in Starbucks is
that you never know who you will run into and what that conversation
might lead too. I hope you enjoy the conversation below; I tried to
use different apologetic methods while writing this dialogue. As a
side note, I did begin an email exchange with a co-worker but he
bailed on me after I sent him the first email.
JAY: Hi, mind if I sit here?
ED: Not at all, pull up a chair.
JAY: Wow, this place is packed out!
ED: Yeah, no kidding. Must be finals time. Everyone who walks in here
buys a coffee plops down and starts studying.
JAY: That’s why I’m here. I’ve got a huge apologetics exam in a couple
of weeks and I better get cracken’.
ED: Apologetics? Where do you go to school?
JAY: Reformed Theological Seminary, I’m training to be a pastor.
ED: Really. Well you probably would not have enjoyed my religion class
today.
JAY: Why do you say that?
ED: We talked about the resurrection of Jesus, or better put, the lack
of a resurrection.
JAY: Interesting topic…what’s your take? Do you believe in the
resurrection of Jesus?
ED: When I was growing up, maybe. I went to church when I was young
and that is what the church teaches, but I’ve kinda gotten over the
whole God thing and after today and all the evidence our professor
gave, not a chance.
JAY: I’d be interested to hear what he said if you have the time?
ED: Sure, in fact, I have my notes right here.
JAY: Sounds good.
ED: There are four major reasons my professor gave in order to
disprove the resurrection of Jesus. The first one, describes Jesus as
not really dying. Basically when Jesus was on the cross he lost
consciousness, he didn’t really die. Due to all the blood he lost
during his beatings and hanging on the cross, and the fact that his
body was in such pain and shock its more likely that Jesus passed out
rather than died. So when the guards took his body down and laid it in
a cool tomb his body revived and Jesus went and visited with his
disciples. This is an over simplification, but I think you get the
idea.
JAY: Yeah, I understand what you are saying. Let me ask you a
question. Have you ever seen movies like Braveheart or Gladiator?
ED: Yes, I love those movies!
JAY: Me too! Now think about the executioners in those moves. What is
there sole job in life? What do they live to do?
ED: Kill people.
JAY: Right, if they messed that up then they were not only out of a
job, but could potentially lose their life as well. Roman soldiers
were some of the most ruthless, brutal, and knowledgeable men of the
world at that time when it came to killing. They were expert killers.
It’s hard to believe that a group of Roman soldiers couldn’t tell if a
person was dead or not. They performed thousands upon thousands of
these types of executions. This does not even take into account the
amount of blood Jesus lost during his beatings and the fact that he
was stabbed in the side to make sure he was dead. Again this does not
even take into account the asphyxiation that occurs from being
crucified. Even if he were to survive there is no way he could move
the two-ton rock in front of his tomb by himself. I just find it
impossible to believe that a man going through what he went through
was supposed to move by himself a two-ton rock and then take on
several guards after that. I don’t think a man in his position was
quite up to that. Heck, I couldn’t do that in the condition that I’m
in.
ED: I guess you make a pretty good argument. I thought this was
probably the weakest of his four positions.
JAY: I just want you to know there is another side to the arguments
you are hearing. But let’s here what else your professor has to say.
ED: Another view, which I think holds water, is that the disciples of
Jesus came and stole his body.
JAY: If this is true then what evidence do you have to support such a
claim?
ED: One example can be found in Justin Martyr’s Dialogue Against
Trypho where it says, "the Jew speaks of one Jesus a Galilean
deceiver, whom we crucified; but his disciples stole him by night from
the tomb, where he was laid when unfastened from the cross, and now
deceive men by asserting that he has risen from the dead and ascended
into heaven." Also, Reimarus says, "The disciples of Jesus purloined
the body of Jesus before it had been buried twenty-four hours, played
at the burial-place the comedy of the empty grave, and delayed the
public announcement of the resurrection until the fiftieth day, when
the decay of the body had become complete." Think about it, the
disciples had all the reasons in the world to steal the body of Jesus.
They had left family, jobs, comforts, and much more to follow this
man. Could you imagine the humiliation of admitting that the man you
gave up everything for was not who he actually claimed to be? At least
if they stole the body they save some face.
JAY: Ed, you are right in that this theory has been around for a long
time. But that is exactly what it is, a theory. Did you know that the
bible even addresses this situation?
ED: No, but don’t you think the bible is a little bias? After all
aren’t the followers of Jesus the ones who wrote the book?
JAY: Let me address the claims above that you were making and then we
can talk about the bias of the bible. In fact I would say that
everyone who reads anything, facts included come to those statements
with a personal bias already in hand. We can talk about that in a
minute though. Sound good?
ED: Ok
JAY: About the stolen body, in Matthew 28:11-15 it says, "While the
women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and
reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. When the
chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave
the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, "You are to say, 'His
disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were
asleep.' If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and
keep you out of trouble." So the soldiers took the money and did as
they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among
the Jews to this very day." There are several facts we can take from
this text and other historical evidence as well. First notice that the
guard’s testimony is the first witness to the event and their
testimony was received as entirely true because the guard had no
reason to lie.
ED: But what if the guards were in on it to begin with.
JAY: What benefit do they gain from this? In fact, because this
happened under their watch they could have easily been executed for
allowing this to happen. The only thing that appears to save their
skin is the chief priest coming up with a lie and buying them off.
ED: Keep going.
JAY: In addition it would have been impossible for a band of disciples
to move the stone away from the tomb and grab Jesus’ body without the
Roman Guard waking up and taking action against them. Even if it were
possible for all of the soldiers to sleep through this ruckus, then
how could they say the disciples stole his body? How were they so
certain it was the disciples if they didn’t see anyone? One more
point.
ED: I’m listening.
JAY: If the disciples did take Jesus then where did their courage all
of a sudden come from? The disciples who fled during Jesus’ trial and
at least one even denied to a servant girl of all people that he was
ever with Jesus. They were too distraught, depressed, and cowardly to
do such a thing. This was not a time when they would be ready to take
on the Sanhedrin and Roman guards, risking their lives for the body of
Jesus. These are just several of the many reasons why it would be
foolish to think the disciples stole his body. If the disciples didn’t
have the courage or will and the guards and Jews didn’t want his body
missing, then how do you explain the empty tomb? Jesus rose again.
Just like he said he would. The bible is very clear and emphatic about
this.
ED: There you go with the bible again. Why does everything keep coming
back to the bible? I mean I think there are good things in that book
but it’s not the end all book.
JAY: Ed, for me everything in one-way or another comes back to the
bible, God’s written word. I believe that there is a creator/creature
distinction (here I draw the circles) meaning that there is a Personal
God who created, governs, and sustains this world. In light of his
creating this world he has given us (creatures) certain obligations
that we are to live by. The bible spells out very clearly what is
required of us. Hence, the bible, as the word of God informs me how I
ought to think about this world and live in this world.
ED: Well, that’s all good for you but I don’t believe in God or buy
that God stuff. It’s just a crutch to help you deal with life.
JAY: That’s probably one reason you don’t believe that Jesus was
resurrected from the grave. If you don’t believe in God then it would
be logical to disbelieve the claims that Jesus was the son of God and
had the power to raise himself from the grave.
ED: One of them, the other is that you just don’t see people who have
been dead for three days come back to life.
JAY: What would it take for you to believe that Jesus rose from the
grave?
ED: I’m not sure…I’d have to think about that.
JAY: Would you have to see him? It seems like historical evidence and
arguments won’t convince you. I know we haven’t addressed all the
arguments put forth by your professor but there are good arguments
from my side to all his objections.
ED: See him might do it, but even if I did see him how would I know
that I’m not dreaming or something. How do I know it would really be
him?
JAY: So even if you did see Jesus you would probably dismiss it as a
crazy occurrence or daydream then?
ED: Honestly, yes.
JAY: Basically what you are telling me is that no matter what happens
to you in life you always interpret facts according to your beliefs?
ED: What do you mean by that?
JAY: Well if you don’t believe it is possible for a person to be
raised from the dead after three days then these beliefs control how
you will interpret the facts about the resurrection. If you believe
something to be a certain way then all other interpretations become
invalid at that point.
ED: I see, but it works the same way for you correct? Since you
believe it is possible for someone to be raised from the dead then you
interpret the facts of the resurrection as true because you believe
resurrection is possible.
JAY: That’s correct. Our beliefs drive the way we interpret facts. Our
presuppositions drive how we interpret the information we gather.
ED: Well if you have one set of presuppositions that are different
from mine then where does that leave us? Because I am going to keep
interpreting the facts of the resurrection the way my professor did
and you are going to interpret the information a different way.
JAY: Well, lets go back to the question of God. You stated earlier
that you don’t believe in God. Therefore any evidence that I try to
give for the proof of God you are just going to dismiss because this
is not your belief, correct?
ED: Correct.
JAY: Well, let me ask you this…how do you decided what is morally
right and wrong? For instance is it wrong for me to steal your car?
ED: Of course it’s wrong for you to steal my car.
JAY: What makes it wrong?
ED: The law says that you can’t do that!
JAY: What makes our laws right?
ED: Our society dictates what rules we are to live by and if we break
them then there are consequences.
JAY: So our society arbitrarily defines what is right and wrong by the
laws it writes?
ED: Hmm…
JAY: What if a child was visiting a society where it was ok to kill
other people and while visiting this society they decided to rape,
mutilate, and kill her. Is there anything wrong with that?
ED: Yes, there is something terribly wrong with that.
JAY: If there is no Absolute Personal God then who defines what is
right and wrong? Because you see if there is no Absolute Person God
then each individual is left to him or herself to determine what is
right and wrong. If this is the case then everything is relative and
subjective. Therefore who are you to say that killing that child was
wrong?
ED: Basically you are telling me there are only two alternatives?
JAY: Correct. Either the universe is completely impersonal, meaning
that everything is reduced to matter and chance, which in turn means
there is no purpose for anything. Or a Person who has a reason and
purpose for everything that happens and has given us a standard by
which we can know what is morally right and wrong created the
universe.
ED: Let me guess, this standard is the Bible?
JAY: Yes, the bible clearly teaches what is right and wrong. You see I
can say that it is wrong to kill that child because the bible clearly
teaches that it is wrong to kill innocent people. Just like I can say
its wrong to get drunk, commit adultery, lie, steal, abuse people,
etc. I know these things are wrong because God’s word tells me that
they are wrong, not because of some arbitrary rule mandated by
society.
ED: How do you know the bible is God’s word? How do you know it not
some book made up throughout history with an agenda to will to power
over people?
JAY: The bible claims to be God’s word. Paul tells us that Scripture
was ‘breathed out’ by God. In fact, the Ten Commandments were written
by the finger of God. He used language in order to communicate his
truth to us in a way that we would be able to understand it.
ED: Big problem Jay. You are using the bible to prove the bible.
JAY: Your right but earlier you were using your own presuppositions to
prove your point. Whether you presuppositions be reason, gut feeling,
or whatever remember we all have our presuppositions. My point is that
some presuppositions can be lived out while others cannot. Do your
presuppositions work? Do they answer the big questions of life? Do
they give purpose?
ED: I could live life just like I am now and be happy for the most
part.
JAY: I don’t think you could, not if you truly lived by your
presuppositions. In fact I would go so far as to say that if you were
happy you were being inconsistent with your presuppositions. The
reason being if there is no God then there is no meaning in life.
Nothing counts, there is no right or wrong. You can’t have happiness
without meaning. Life void of meaning is despair and that is where you
are at if you are true to your presuppositions.
ED: I see. This is something that I need to consider.
JAY: If the God of the bible is the true creator of this universe and
if he has given us his word, which I believe he has, the question then
becomes, have you followed God’s standards, his moral commands?
ED: Not perfectly. But it’s not like I’ve gone out and killed anyone
either. If you were to put my life on a scale I would say there has
been more good than bad.
JAY: Ed, if you were to stand before the God of the universe right
now, do you think he would be pleased with you? Do you think he would
let you into heaven? Remember his standard is perfection.
ED: Not if his standard is perfection.
JAY: This is why the resurrection of Jesus that we were talking about
earlier is so important. The bible teaches that Jesus Christ came to
bear the penalty we deserved for not obeying God completely. The
judgment that we deserve for disobedience to God was put upon Christ
and the perfect life that he lived was accounted to those who believe
upon him and put their faith in him. The resurrection shows that God’s
wrath was satisfied and that one day we will be resurrected like
Christ was and enjoy the presence of this wonderful and loving God.
ED: From what you are saying our presuppositions not only influence
how we live but also radically effect what happens to us when we die.
JAY: Correct you are my friend.
ED: Hmm…Oh no! Look at the time. Jay, I have to go and pick up my
sister now, but can we talk about this more another time? You have
given me a lot to think about and I need some time to process this.
JAY: Sure, how about we meet here this Friday at 1:00pm and continue
our discussion?
ED: Sounds great!
The End. |
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