"default" <default at (no spam) defaulter.net> wrote ...
, "Patrick" <barker_pb at (no spam) erinot.com>> wrote:

People judge others by how they are themselves.
That is why I trust.
That is why you don't.

I used to believe that too. But if you yourself believe that you
would go out without locking your house, not watch your luggage,
believe every ad you saw on TV, etc..

But, you see.... that is the difference between you and me.
I trust almost everyone. I truly believe 90+% of all the people
in the world are nice, decent, honorable, trustworthy citizens.
There are a few who will take advantage of everyone and everything.

So, you don't "trust." You just like to think your religion is above
reproach.

I believe that most people (in or out of my church) are honest, trustworthy
agents and citizens. A few are not.

Me too. But remove temptation at the same time.

My ex boss proved that was wrong too - this guy would lie like it was
second nature - yet when he caught one of his clients lying to him, it
was totally out of the blue.

Perhaps your boss knew he was the anomaly, the turd in the punch bowl,
and didn't expect many others to be like him.

He was so used to lying, I'm not sure he himself knew the facts half

AND you Patrick read your bible cover to cover?

Not in the last week or so.
Actually, I've never read it from one cover to the other.
That isn't how it is meant to be read.

I don't recollect the bible saying how it was intended to be used. I
did actually read it . . . once long ago.

No book describes how it is to be read.

Your opinion being taken in small doses - problem with that is the

I certainly have read every word, but not one end to the other.
It isn't a story that reveals itself page by page.....
It is a compilation of history, fables, short stories, prayers,
songs, etc.

Any of which may be interpreted to mean whatever one wishes.

That is why the church didn't want you to read it.
Perhaps they knew you were the turd......

A religion based on lies, can never bear close scrutiny. Probably the

More likely you go to

Please don't make up shit about me.
It makes you into a liar.

Patrick you don't go to church - not making that up, you already
admitted it.

I did?
I attend Mass every Sunday, 10:30 Mass. I also take between
2 and 4 others with me. I will be there tomorrow. Now, I will be
cruising for a few weeks, and don't know if Mass will be available
to me, but I attend every Sunday when here in town.

I know my statement was confusing. I agree, you've said more than

church, some pedophile climbs the pulpit, then rants on for 15-20
minutes, taking some bible verse and trying to use it in some context
he deems appropriate or useful.

At question may be whether your particular priest is a pedophile - I'm
only guessing there.

Why guess?
I thought you were declaring all priests to be peophiles.

You really ought to come to the celebration of the Mass sometime.
You ought to open your heart up and prepare yourself to receive,
rather than spew yer shit.

Can't spell your?

Not when it comes to yer shit.


I don't need church - just turn on the TV and someone will lie to me.

as you expect them to.
as you expect everyone to lie to you.
Life sucks, and then you die, eh?

It must suck to be you.

Do you deny that the church does many things for the needy?

The question is, do they do much for the needy compared to the money
they take in?

Is this something you feel you need to know?
Would you like to read the financial statements of my parish?

Not so long as it is your money funding the Vatican. Yes I would like

I see a seminary with a whopping 14 students near my parents house.
They recently added a gymnasium that would be the envy of the Celtics.
The land it sits on is probably in the tens of billions, the upkeep
probably runs to millions - a couple of "chapels" one the size of a
large church, indoor and outdoor swimming pools, baseball diamonds,
gardens, caretakers cottages and their swimming pool, fire engine and
ambulance, the size of a small city but with more trees, etc..
BTW the 14 is up from 6 a few years ago - the pope's visit prompted a
few more than usual. It was 26 back when I was in grade school.
It is basically there for a "retreat" for priests, with the amenities
of a world class resort.
AND who does pay for the gold embroidered silk the pope wears, the
poor? They do - in a manner of speaking.

Many people give the pope his vestments.
He doesn't have them made from the money collected for the poor.

You're probably wrong there. I remember reading about it in the

Like any "non-profit" corporation, their executives do quite well.
Borrowing from Karen's quote: "Sisters were very close to God, they
told us. They had a very exalted vocation. They gave their entire
lives to God, unlike other people who just gave their lives in bits
and pieces."
We were given the same line about priests - but the real truth is that
priests seem to be rewarded very well in money and perks. All the
while they talk about priestly poverty.

Many priests take the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.
Those priests cannot own land, a car, even golf clubs. They can be
paid a stipend to help defray costs for underwear and wine.

That was what they said about all priests when I went through their

, "Patrick" <barker_pb at (no spam) erinot.com>> wrote:

I trust almost everyone. I truly believe 90+% of all the people
in the world are nice, decent, honorable, trustworthy citizens.
There are a few who will take advantage of everyone and everything.

That's about how I see it too. 10% make it a career, another 40%
would cheat if they had power to do so.

A religion based on lies, can never bear close scrutiny. Probably the
reason it was illegal to translate the bible into any other language
save the original Latin and Greek.

I thought you were declaring all priests to be peophiles.

No. Not at all. There's bound to be some heterosexual semi-normal
priests, in spite of the physiologists that say priests don't develop
normal sexually.

It must suck to be you.

So you must think Billy Mays is god?

Your house is full of slicing
chopping cleaning miracles? I'm sure you believe TV more than I do,
but not even you are that brainwashed.

Trying so hard to appear optimistic? Go for reality. Neither
optimism or pessimism makes any sense.

Do you deny that the church does many things for the needy?

The question is, do they do much for the needy compared to the money
they take in?

Is this something you feel you need to know?
Would you like to read the financial statements of my parish?

Not so long as it is your money funding the Vatican. Yes I would like
to see the parish statements. They cover everything even what the
priest pockets at weddings funerals and dedicated masses?

Many people give the pope his vestments.
He doesn't have them made from the money collected for the poor.

You're probably wrong there. I remember reading about it in the
National Geographic or Smithsonian - they said the Vatican pays for
the pope's vestments. AND the cost was phenomenal.

Like any "non-profit" corporation, their executives do quite well.
Borrowing from Karen's quote: "Sisters were very close to God, they
told us. They had a very exalted vocation. They gave their entire
lives to God, unlike other people who just gave their lives in bits
and pieces."
We were given the same line about priests - but the real truth is that
priests seem to be rewarded very well in money and perks. All the
while they talk about priestly poverty.

Many priests take the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.
Those priests cannot own land, a car, even golf clubs. They can be
paid a stipend to help defray costs for underwear and wine.

That was what they said about all priests when I went through their
propaganda mill. Stipend poverty etc.. They still managed
housekeepers, and cooks in the rectory, and some lavish digs, and nice
cars and retirement packages.

"default" <default at (no spam) defaulter.net> wrote ..
, "Patrick" <barker_pb at (no spam) erinot.com>> wrote:

I trust almost everyone. I truly believe 90+% of all the people
in the world are nice, decent, honorable, trustworthy citizens.
There are a few who will take advantage of everyone and everything.

That's about how I see it too. 10% make it a career, another 40%
would cheat if they had power to do so.

That number has increased in the last 3 decades.
To me, it shows the slippery slope is working.....

There doesn't have to be a slippery slope - all animals that normally

A religion based on lies, can never bear close scrutiny. Probably the
reason it was illegal to translate the bible into any other language
save the original Latin and Greek.

Nah, I don't think so.
I believe the early church fathers knew that the more people
could read, the more they could interpret. They probably
squabbled among themselves on certain dogma. How much more
violent would it be if everyone threw in their opinions. As it was,
once the bible became available to more and more, then more people
disagreed with an interpretation for their own greedy sakes. Look
at Henry VIII. He wanted to ditch a wife, so he made up his own
church that would allow him to do so.

You're saying that the bible is subject to different interpretations

I thought you were declaring all priests to be peophiles.

No. Not at all. There's bound to be some heterosexual semi-normal
priests, in spite of the physiologists that say priests don't develop
normal sexually.

Stop reading Sipe and Doyle.
They will give you a headache.


It must suck to be you.

So you must think Billy Mays is god?

He's dead. Heart attack, or drugs or something.....

Your house is full of slicing
chopping cleaning miracles? I'm sure you believe TV more than I do,
but not even you are that brainwashed.

Trying so hard to appear optimistic? Go for reality. Neither
optimism or pessimism makes any sense.

Of course it does.
We feel exactly how we choose to feel.
I choose to feel happy.
I am happy.

I was born with limitless curiosity. I can't go through life without

Do you deny that the church does many things for the needy?

The question is, do they do much for the needy compared to the money
they take in?

Is this something you feel you need to know?
Would you like to read the financial statements of my parish?

Not so long as it is your money funding the Vatican. Yes I would like
to see the parish statements. They cover everything even what the
priest pockets at weddings funerals and dedicated masses?

Gimme a break.
I'll provide a few financials shortly.

Valid question. I was reading one hype piece by the church that

Many people give the pope his vestments.
He doesn't have them made from the money collected for the poor.

You're probably wrong there. I remember reading about it in the
National Geographic or Smithsonian - they said the Vatican pays for
the pope's vestments. AND the cost was phenomenal.

I'll try to answer that later also.
I know that women groups in the parishes I have belonged to usually
do bake sales and they sew the vestments themselves.

Maybe on a parish level. The Vatican has had one tailor (family) for

Like any "non-profit" corporation, their executives do quite well.
Borrowing from Karen's quote: "Sisters were very close to God, they
told us. They had a very exalted vocation. They gave their entire
lives to God, unlike other people who just gave their lives in bits
and pieces."
We were given the same line about priests - but the real truth is that
priests seem to be rewarded very well in money and perks. All the
while they talk about priestly poverty.

Many priests take the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.
Those priests cannot own land, a car, even golf clubs. They can be
paid a stipend to help defray costs for underwear and wine.

That was what they said about all priests when I went through their
propaganda mill. Stipend poverty etc.. They still managed
housekeepers, and cooks in the rectory, and some lavish digs, and nice
cars and retirement packages.

Not worth chasing after.
I know several "retired" priests who drive older cars, live in apartments,
and visit hospitals, retirement homes each week.

They are probably used to better pickings in the big cities. The

Patrick" <barker_pb at (no spam) erinot.com>> wrote:

I believe the early church fathers knew that the more people
could read, the more they could interpret. They probably
squabbled among themselves on certain dogma. How much more
violent would it be if everyone threw in their opinions. As it was,
once the bible became available to more and more, then more people
disagreed with an interpretation for their own greedy sakes. Look
at Henry VIII. He wanted to ditch a wife, so he made up his own
church that would allow him to do so.

You're saying that the bible is subject to different interpretations
and that church wanted a monopoly on the one everyone would "follow."

That would make me ask why one person has a better idea than some
other as to the "true" meaning.

You seem to forget that the church is also composed of greedy people
interpreting for their own greedy sakes.

You think Constantine was a
Christian? From what I read he had to think long and hard to pick
either Judaism or Christianity for the empire's religion, and didn't
discount the old gods of Rome. Constantine was the son of a Roman
Commander and prostitute. He worshiped his father's gods - with a
central sun god who was over the lessor gods.

Diocletian was wasting lots of time and resources trying to stamp out
Christianity. Meanwhile Jews were becoming enthralled with the idea
of a god who preached love and tolerance. Jews and Pagans were
joining the club faster than Diocletian could rid them. Constantine,
who was learning from Diocletian, decided that it made more sense to
stop fighting what seemed inevitable. The Roman empire was coming
apart and there were others vying for the position of sole emperor.
It was Constantine that made it official; Christ was to be a god and
not a prophet.

Constantine was the first effective pope for all practical purposes.

He ordered the manuscripts and writings of the early church, as well
as their leaders to appear in Nicea and convened a meeting to decide
which ideas would be part of his new Christianity. He was trying to
unify the various factions among Christ followers.
There were many self-appointed or anointed or popular Christian
leaders or popes during the early years of Christianity and
Constantine appointed some himself.
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/emperors/g/Gratian.htm
In 379, Gratian recalled those bishops whom the Arian emperor Valens
had expelled from the East. Because of his Christian beliefs, Gratian
eliminated "Pontifex Maximus" from his imperial title and on the
prompting of (saint) Ambrose, removed the altar of Victory from the
Roman forum.

The real history of the church (what is known) is one of skulduggery
and bloodshed among men fighting for power while the empire was
declining.

The history for couch potatoes, of course, is a pacified modernized
version that suggests that there was a lot of cooperation and harmony
as the torch of Christianity flared to light the world.

We feel exactly how we choose to feel.
I choose to feel happy.
I am happy.

I was born with limitless curiosity. I can't go through life without
learning and everything interests me.

I'm no less happy, but much more aware.

I was reading one hype piece by the church that
suggests that priests are supposed to pocket the "offering" for a
special mass said for a departed. They went on to say it is only $5
and not too much considering how poorly priests are paid (without
saying what they are paid).

Got me thinking. When I was growing up, we got our cut of the money
from funerals - usually $5 X 2 boys, and the priest got an envelope
and thanks from the funeral director for steering the business his
way. I figure the priest was getting $50 - or about $361.81 in
today's money.
http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

You're probably wrong there. I remember reading about it in the
National Geographic or Smithsonian - they said the Vatican pays for
the pope's vestments. AND the cost was phenomenal.

I'll try to answer that later also.
I know that women groups in the parishes I have belonged to usually
do bake sales and they sew the vestments themselves.

Maybe on a parish level. The Vatican has had one tailor (family) for
many years who's been making the vestments. I read about it over ten
years ago myself though. Things change.

I know several "retired" priests who drive older cars, live in apartments,
and visit hospitals, retirement homes each week.

They are probably used to better pickings in the big cities. The
monsignor retired to a 150 acre farm with his winnings. He was the
consummate politician.

"Sockie" <Sockie-1995 at (no spam) Socksland.com> wrote

The vast majority of Christian today are hypocrites.

Just as you are.

"default" <default at (no spam) defaulter.net> wrote ..
AND you Patrick read your bible cover to cover?

Not in the last week or so.
Actually, I've never read it from one cover to the other.

That isn't how it is meant to be read.

I certainly have read every word, but not one end to the other.
It isn't a story that reveals itself page by page.....
It is a compilation of history, fables, short stories, prayers,
songs, etc.

church, some pedophile climbs the pulpit, then rants on for 15-20
minutes, taking some bible verse and trying to use it in some context
he deems appropriate or useful.


You really ought to come to the celebration of the Mass sometime.
You ought to open your heart up and prepare yourself to receive,
rather than spew yer shit.

Don't try to confuse giving money to the church as giving it to the
poor.

Why?
Do you deny that the church does many things for the needy?

Look up "CHANGE."
Maybe you will understand the church isn't alone in its reason to change.

AND you Patrick read your bible cover to cover?

Not in the last week or so.
Actually, I've never read it from one cover to the other.
That isn't how it is meant to be read.

I don't recollect the bible saying how it was intended to be used. I
did actually read it . . . once long ago.

No book describes how it is to be read.

Any of which may be interpreted to mean whatever one wishes.

That is why the church didn't want you to read it.
Perhaps they knew you were the turd......

At question may be whether your particular priest is a pedophile - I'm
only guessing there.

Why guess?
I thought you were declaring all priests to be peophiles.

I don't need church - just turn on the TV and someone will lie to me.

as you expect them to.
as you expect everyone to lie to you.
Life sucks, and then you die, eh?

It must suck to be you.

The question is, do they do much for the needy compared to the money
they take in?

Is this something you feel you need to know?
Would you like to read the financial statements of my parish?

AND who does pay for the gold embroidered silk the pope wears, the
poor? They do - in a manner of speaking.

Many people give the pope his vestments.
He doesn't have them made from the money collected for the poor.

We were given the same line about priests - but the real truth is that
priests seem to be rewarded very well in money and perks. All the
while they talk about priestly poverty.

Many priests take the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.
Those priests cannot own land, a car, even golf clubs. They can be
paid a stipend to help defray costs for underwear and wine.

A religion based on lies, can never bear close scrutiny. Probably the
reason it was illegal to translate the bible into any other language
save the original Latin and Greek.

priests, in spite of the physiologists that say priests don't develop
normal sexually.

Many people give the pope his vestments.
He doesn't have them made from the money collected for the poor.

You're probably wrong there. I remember reading about it in the
National Geographic or Smithsonian - they said the Vatican pays for
the pope's vestments. AND the cost was phenomenal.

Many priests take the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.
Those priests cannot own land, a car, even golf clubs. They can be
paid a stipend to help defray costs for underwear and wine.

That was what they said about all priests when I went through their
propaganda mill. Stipend poverty etc.. They still managed
housekeepers, and cooks in the rectory, and some lavish digs, and nice
cars and retirement packages.

"default" <default at (no spam) defaulter.net> wrote ..
A religion based on lies, can never bear close scrutiny. Probably the
reason it was illegal to translate the bible into any other language
save the original Latin and Greek.

Nah, I don't think so.
I believe the early church fathers knew that the more people
could read, the more they could interpret. They probably
squabbled among themselves on certain dogma. How much more
violent would it be if everyone threw in their opinions.

once the bible became available to more and more, then more people
disagreed with an interpretation for their own greedy sakes.

at Henry VIII. He wanted to ditch a wife, so he made up his own
church that would allow him to do so.

Of course it does.
We feel exactly how we choose to feel.
I choose to feel happy.
I am happy.

Gimme a break.
I'll provide a few financials shortly.

You're probably wrong there. I remember reading about it in the
National Geographic or Smithsonian - they said the Vatican pays for
the pope's vestments. AND the cost was phenomenal.

I'll try to answer that later also.
I know that women groups in the parishes I have belonged to usually
do bake sales and they sew the vestments themselves.

"Florence B. Nitengail" <none at (no spam) nospamforme.net> wrote-

They church TRIES to taketh away. Smart Catholics have closed their
wallets and purses and even smarter ones have left the RCChurch.

So sayeth the loozer, florence....

Speak for yerself.
The RCC is doing just fine here in Ohio, thank you.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:11:57 -0500, "Florence B. Nitengail"
none at (no spam) nospamforme.net> wrote:


"default" <default at (no spam) defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:mp9ed51u99jd740f1llvo8h3hgk443h797 at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:26:07 -0400, "Patrick" <barker_pb at (no spam) erinot.com
wrote:


The definition of "graven" images includes the statues, paintings
and
stained glass you see in Catholic (and other) churches. Strictly by
definition.

Not by our definition.

I'd be interested in hearing our definition then. I mean it really
does sound bad, grave, gravity, graven.

Follows a lot of cut and paste in a vain attempt to justify what the
ten commandments expressly forbids.

Graven did mean any carved representation when it was first used, it
wasn't until much later that the church said Oops! we need to change
that . . . . God giveth the Church taketh away?
--

They church TRIES to taketh away. Smart Catholics have closed their
wallets
and purses and even smarter ones have left the RCChurch.

Interesting concept "Smart Catholic." Sounds contradictory.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 19:15:28 -0500, "Parish *~" <Parish at (no spam) invalid.invalid
wrote:


"duke" <duckgumbo32 at (no spam) cox.net> wrote in message
news:7m3ed5p1cfcu54ecl6ec0l94luds59ldbr at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:58:32 -0500, "Parish *~" <Parish at (no spam) invalid.invalid
wrote:

Nope, the body of Christ doesn't inhabit the corrupt and the greedy.
The
evil, the wicked and the perverted. The money and power hungry. Your
being
fed lies by your priest.

Yep, the Body of Christ is totally composed of sinners. Heb 4:15

We've covered this ground many times before. All this is is justification
for the moral bankruptcy of the RCC.

Yes, it's hard for you to argue against Heb 4:15.

"duke" <duckgumbo32 at (no spam) cox.net> wrote in message
news:lcpgd5h1fdg0lgsea3ckmp2ejbnllk6gra at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 19:15:28 -0500, "Parish *~" <Parish at (no spam) invalid.invalid
wrote:


"duke" <duckgumbo32 at (no spam) cox.net> wrote in message
news:7m3ed5p1cfcu54ecl6ec0l94luds59ldbr at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:58:32 -0500, "Parish *~" <Parish at (no spam) invalid.invalid
wrote:

Nope, the body of Christ doesn't inhabit the corrupt and the greedy.
The
evil, the wicked and the perverted. The money and power hungry. Your
being
fed lies by your priest.

Yep, the Body of Christ is totally composed of sinners. Heb 4:15

If you choose to commit adultery, hide pedophiles, cheat on your taxes,
lie... don't think the rest of us do. Speak for yourself only.

We've covered this ground many times before. All this is is justification
for the moral bankruptcy of the RCC.

Yes, it's hard for you to argue against Heb 4:15.

If you choose to commit adultery, hide pedophiles, cheat on your taxes,
lie... don't think the rest of us do. Speak for yourself only.

Ship, same old lies, fabrications and apologist nonsense for the a morally
bankrupt church.

"Patrick" <barker_pb at (no spam) erinot.com> wrote in message
I believe the early church fathers knew that the more people
could read, the more they could interpret. They probably
squabbled among themselves on certain dogma. How much more
violent would it be if everyone threw in their opinions.

They eventually did and the world didn't end. No church can claim they
have 100% correct interpretation of scripture.

As it was,
once the bible became available to more and more, then more people
disagreed with an interpretation for their own greedy sakes.

Their own greedy sakes? Where did you get that one from?

Why should people only have ONE interpretation to consider, especially
when they are starting to chaff at the RCC's grip on them, and the
bleeding of their finances?

Look
at Henry VIII. He wanted to ditch a wife, so he made up his own
church that would allow him to do so.

Meanwhile the church was making fast money selling indulgences. Buy your
salvation for X amount of $$$.

Of course it does.
We feel exactly how we choose to feel.
I choose to feel happy.
I am happy.

Then why do you sound so miserable in your posts?

Gimme a break.
I'll provide a few financials shortly.

Those on the Vatican should prove interesting.

You're probably wrong there. I remember reading about it in the
National Geographic or Smithsonian - they said the Vatican pays for
the pope's vestments. AND the cost was phenomenal.

I'll try to answer that later also.
I know that women groups in the parishes I have belonged to usually
do bake sales and they sew the vestments themselves.

They aren't sewing the Pope's vestments.

"Patrick" <barker_pb at (no spam) erinot.com> wrote in message

AND you Patrick read your bible cover to cover?

Not in the last week or so.
Actually, I've never read it from one cover to the other.
That isn't how it is meant to be read.

I don't recollect the bible saying how it was intended to be used. I
did actually read it . . . once long ago.

No book describes how it is to be read.

You just tried to a few posts back. You said it wasn't meant to be read
cover to cover.

Any of which may be interpreted to mean whatever one wishes.

That is why the church didn't want you to read it.
Perhaps they knew you were the turd......

Oh? They only wanted people to have THEIR interpretation as though only
THEY had the right or ability to interpret the bible?

At question may be whether your particular priest is a pedophile - I'm
only guessing there.

Why guess?
I thought you were declaring all priests to be peophiles.

No one on any of these groups ever made that claim. But many of us feel
all those who knew about the pedophile priests and did nothing, are just
as guilty.

What did Jesus say about fancy vestments?

We were given the same line about priests - but the real truth is that
priests seem to be rewarded very well in money and perks. All the
while they talk about priestly poverty.

Many priests take the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.
Those priests cannot own land, a car, even golf clubs. They can be
paid a stipend to help defray costs for underwear and wine.

And the other 99% bypass that vow of poverty.