possum wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:40 am, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
possum wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:06 am, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
luchayana superfly del pseudomodo wrote:
On Sep 15, 6:38 pm, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
zenworm wrote:
On Sep 15, 7:35 am, Marcus Nickerson <marcusnicker... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:34 pm, zenworm <zensp... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 14, 8:51 pm, brian mitchell <brainm... at (no spam) fishing.net> wrote:
zenworm wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:17 am, norbu_tragri <norbu.tra... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
snip
"Just look, know/feel it without any filters, do not buy into it or
reject it or go nummmmb....
no strategy at all - sheer awareness. If you were ever told "Honesty
is the best policy" - that's what this. If you want find something
real, some sort of sanity, it has to start with you being honest with
yourself. So just look."
- norbu
snip
Thank you norbu
Looking now
Being now
Smiling now
This is Moment
Yeah, probably, maybe... but "just looking" isn't realisation. It may
be a prerequisite, but realisation is to explosively and
**comprehendingly** enter something utterly new. It entails sharp,
sharp cognition as well as awareness. I regularly feel that this
Tangist, quietist, "just looking" lacks some essential dynamism.
Now!
Now! is pretty good, but it carries Past and Future with it to define
it...
Traditionally there was a snap of the fingers -
Before any idea of time...
But if you try to sit and experience that it just becomes a hunt for
another fiction...
Just look at whatever happens helps the whole thought-emotion thing
let off steam and unwind
and rest - no resistance ... keep awareness of posture breath
etc...awake, not dozing off...
i think you have to sit through boredom and exhaustion and sleepiness
and yattering mind a few
times over the hours find posture breath and on-the-spot relax into
the pre-thought insight,
and then to let that go, no idea to continue that or re-create it...
Mindfulness of body, breath, etc...just simple...
  - n.
Moment is verb
being this is timeless
mind is irrelevant
abyss swallows all
surrender of survival is
being -of- not knowing
paradox is manifest
unknown is unknowable
Totality is present
there is nothing 'else'
Moment is Totality
the isness of Totality
seamless
instant
timeless
eternal
now being now being now
not two
Moment is verb
gag me with a noun
But didn't he take his refuge vowels?
/leebert
no no no those were refuse bowels...
Did you like my vulture suit, btw?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyUqI0cS8s&feature=player_embedded
I'm the one that got the liver. See the can of Goya fava beans
under my right wing and the bottle of Chiante under the left?
That's me.
a bit different to feeding the ducks.  Fu!!
possum
I just *knew* that feather was gonna give me away...

hya janjan :)

helloo you fuey : )

i think i'd like to see the disney cartoon version.  old walt knew his
ducks right enough.    bad tempered with a funny voice is taken by
donald...what would he have made of vic the vulture? : )

possum

Fu bird?

On Sep 15, 8:55 am, Keynes <Key... at (no spam) earthlinkspam.net> wrote:

Don't try to understand (mentate) it.
That makes for limit and desire.

Ahhh. Well. I didn't say I was a good Buddhist... :-)

/leebert

possum wrote:
On Sep 16, 2:01 am, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
possum wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:40 am, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
possum wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:06 am, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
luchayana superfly del pseudomodo wrote:
On Sep 15, 6:38 pm, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
zenworm wrote:
On Sep 15, 7:35 am, Marcus Nickerson <marcusnicker... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:34 pm, zenworm <zensp... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 14, 8:51 pm, brian mitchell <brainm... at (no spam) fishing.net> wrote:
zenworm wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:17 am, norbu_tragri <norbu.tra... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
snip
"Just look, know/feel it without any filters, do not buy into it or
reject it or go nummmmb....
no strategy at all - sheer awareness. If you were ever told "Honesty
is the best policy" - that's what this. If you want find something
real, some sort of sanity, it has to start with you being honest with
yourself. So just look."
- norbu
snip
Thank you norbu
Looking now
Being now
Smiling now
This is Moment
Yeah, probably, maybe... but "just looking" isn't realisation. It may
be a prerequisite, but realisation is to explosively and
**comprehendingly** enter something utterly new. It entails sharp,
sharp cognition as well as awareness. I regularly feel that this
Tangist, quietist, "just looking" lacks some essential dynamism.
Now!
Now! is pretty good, but it carries Past and Future with it to define
it...
Traditionally there was a snap of the fingers -
Before any idea of time...
But if you try to sit and experience that it just becomes a hunt for
another fiction...
Just look at whatever happens helps the whole thought-emotion thing
let off steam and unwind
and rest - no resistance ... keep awareness of posture breath
etc...awake, not dozing off...
i think you have to sit through boredom and exhaustion and sleepiness
and yattering mind a few
times over the hours find posture breath and on-the-spot relax into
the pre-thought insight,
and then to let that go, no idea to continue that or re-create it...
Mindfulness of body, breath, etc...just simple...
  - n.
Moment is verb
being this is timeless
mind is irrelevant
abyss swallows all
surrender of survival is
being -of- not knowing
paradox is manifest
unknown is unknowable
Totality is present
there is nothing 'else'
Moment is Totality
the isness of Totality
seamless
instant
timeless
eternal
now being now being now
not two
Moment is verb
gag me with a noun
But didn't he take his refuge vowels?
/leebert
no no no those were refuse bowels...
Did you like my vulture suit, btw?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyUqI0cS8s&feature=player_embedded
I'm the one that got the liver. See the can of Goya fava beans
under my right wing and the bottle of Chiante under the left?
That's me.
a bit different to feeding the ducks.  Fu!!
possum
I just *knew* that feather was gonna give me away...
hya janjan
helloo you fuey : )
i think i'd like to see the disney cartoon version.  old walt knew his
ducks right enough.    bad tempered with a funny voice is taken by
donald...what would he have made of vic the vulture? : )
possum
Fu bird?

i'm getting it now... vinnie the vulture, (don'y you know anything
about disney fu?)  new joisey accent, your poissonality, and wears
round specs with those dangley laces round his ruff cos he keeps
losing them when feeding.

alternatively, we could have fu the fulture.  talks with a swedish
accent, like the muppet chef, make it a romping Carry On, and transfer
the sky funerals to the Alps.  it could work!  : )  : )

possum

How about Fluturist? I could open a shop in Kensington
or something more touristy in Plymouth wif a nice banner...

But didn't he take his refuge vowels?

On Sep 15, 6:38 pm, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
zenworm wrote:
On Sep 15, 7:35 am, Marcus Nickerson <marcusnicker... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:34 pm, zenworm <zensp... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 14, 8:51 pm, brian mitchell <brainm... at (no spam) fishing.net> wrote:
zenworm wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:17 am, norbu_tragri <norbu.tra... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
snip
"Just look, know/feel it without any filters, do not buy into it or
reject it or go nummmmb....
no strategy at all - sheer awareness. If you were ever told "Honesty
is the best policy" - that's what this. If you want find something
real, some sort of sanity, it has to start with you being honest with
yourself. So just look."
- norbu
snip
Thank you norbu
Looking now
Being now
Smiling now
This is Moment
Yeah, probably, maybe... but "just looking" isn't realisation. It may
be a prerequisite, but realisation is to explosively and
**comprehendingly** enter something utterly new. It entails sharp,
sharp cognition as well as awareness. I regularly feel that this
Tangist, quietist, "just looking" lacks some essential dynamism.
Now!
Now! is pretty good, but it carries Past and Future with it to define
it...
Traditionally there was a snap of the fingers -
Before any idea of time...
But if you try to sit and experience that it just becomes a hunt for
another fiction...
Just look at whatever happens helps the whole thought-emotion thing
let off steam and unwind
and rest - no resistance ... keep awareness of posture breath
etc...awake, not dozing off...
i think you have to sit through boredom and exhaustion and sleepiness
and yattering mind a few
times over the hours find posture breath and on-the-spot relax into
the pre-thought insight,
and then to let that go, no idea to continue that or re-create it...
Mindfulness of body, breath, etc...just simple...
- n.
Moment is verb
being this is timeless
mind is irrelevant
abyss swallows all
surrender of survival is
being -of- not knowing
paradox is manifest
unknown is unknowable
Totality is present
there is nothing 'else'
Moment is Totality
the isness of Totality
seamless
instant
timeless
eternal
now being now being now
not two
Moment is verb

gag me with a noun

But didn't he take his refuge vowels?

/leebert

On Sep 16, 1:06 am, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
luchayana superfly del pseudomodo wrote:



On Sep 15, 6:38 pm, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
zenworm wrote:
On Sep 15, 7:35 am, Marcus Nickerson <marcusnicker... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:34 pm, zenworm <zensp... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 14, 8:51 pm, brian mitchell <brainm... at (no spam) fishing.net> wrote:
zenworm wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:17 am, norbu_tragri <norbu.tra... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
snip
"Just look, know/feel it without any filters, do not buy into it or
reject it or go nummmmb....
no strategy at all - sheer awareness. If you were ever told "Honesty
is the best policy" - that's what this. If you want find something
real, some sort of sanity, it has to start with you being honest with
yourself. So just look."
- norbu
snip
Thank you norbu
Looking now
Being now
Smiling now
This is Moment
Yeah, probably, maybe... but "just looking" isn't realisation. It may
be a prerequisite, but realisation is to explosively and
**comprehendingly** enter something utterly new. It entails sharp,
sharp cognition as well as awareness. I regularly feel that this
Tangist, quietist, "just looking" lacks some essential dynamism.
Now!
Now! is pretty good, but it carries Past and Future with it to define
it...
Traditionally there was a snap of the fingers -
Before any idea of time...
But if you try to sit and experience that it just becomes a hunt for
another fiction...
Just look at whatever happens helps the whole thought-emotion thing
let off steam and unwind
and rest - no resistance ... keep awareness of posture breath
etc...awake, not dozing off...
i think you have to sit through boredom and exhaustion and sleepiness
and yattering mind a few
times over the hours find posture breath and on-the-spot relax into
the pre-thought insight,
and then to let that go, no idea to continue that or re-create it...
Mindfulness of body, breath, etc...just simple...
- n.
Moment is verb
being this is timeless
mind is irrelevant
abyss swallows all
surrender of survival is
being -of- not knowing
paradox is manifest
unknown is unknowable
Totality is present
there is nothing 'else'
Moment is Totality
the isness of Totality
seamless
instant
timeless
eternal
now being now being now
not two
Moment is verb
gag me with a noun
But didn't he take his refuge vowels?
/leebert
no no no those were refuse bowels...

Did you like my vulture suit, btw?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyUqI0cS8s&feature=player_embedded

I'm the one that got the liver. See the can of Goya fava beans
under my right wing and the bottle of Chiante under the left?
That's me.

a bit different to feeding the ducks. Fu!!

possum

On Sep 16, 1:40 am, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
possum wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:06 am, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
luchayana superfly del pseudomodo wrote:
On Sep 15, 6:38 pm, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
zenworm wrote:
On Sep 15, 7:35 am, Marcus Nickerson <marcusnicker... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:34 pm, zenworm <zensp... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 14, 8:51 pm, brian mitchell <brainm... at (no spam) fishing.net> wrote:
zenworm wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:17 am, norbu_tragri <norbu.tra... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
snip
"Just look, know/feel it without any filters, do not buy into it or
reject it or go nummmmb....
no strategy at all - sheer awareness. If you were ever told "Honesty
is the best policy" - that's what this. If you want find something
real, some sort of sanity, it has to start with you being honest with
yourself. So just look."
- norbu
snip
Thank you norbu
Looking now
Being now
Smiling now
This is Moment
Yeah, probably, maybe... but "just looking" isn't realisation. It may
be a prerequisite, but realisation is to explosively and
**comprehendingly** enter something utterly new. It entails sharp,
sharp cognition as well as awareness. I regularly feel that this
Tangist, quietist, "just looking" lacks some essential dynamism.
Now!
Now! is pretty good, but it carries Past and Future with it to define
it...
Traditionally there was a snap of the fingers -
Before any idea of time...
But if you try to sit and experience that it just becomes a hunt for
another fiction...
Just look at whatever happens helps the whole thought-emotion thing
let off steam and unwind
and rest - no resistance ... keep awareness of posture breath
etc...awake, not dozing off...
i think you have to sit through boredom and exhaustion and sleepiness
and yattering mind a few
times over the hours find posture breath and on-the-spot relax into
the pre-thought insight,
and then to let that go, no idea to continue that or re-create it...
Mindfulness of body, breath, etc...just simple...
- n.
Moment is verb
being this is timeless
mind is irrelevant
abyss swallows all
surrender of survival is
being -of- not knowing
paradox is manifest
unknown is unknowable
Totality is present
there is nothing 'else'
Moment is Totality
the isness of Totality
seamless
instant
timeless
eternal
now being now being now
not two
Moment is verb
gag me with a noun
But didn't he take his refuge vowels?
/leebert
no no no those were refuse bowels...
Did you like my vulture suit, btw?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyUqI0cS8s&feature=player_embedded
I'm the one that got the liver. See the can of Goya fava beans
under my right wing and the bottle of Chiante under the left?
That's me.
a bit different to feeding the ducks. Fu!!
possum
I just *knew* that feather was gonna give me away...

hya janjan :)

helloo you fuey : )

i think i'd like to see the disney cartoon version. old walt knew his
ducks right enough. bad tempered with a funny voice is taken by
donald...what would he have made of vic the vulture? : )

possum

On Sep 16, 2:01 am, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
possum wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:40 am, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
possum wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:06 am, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
luchayana superfly del pseudomodo wrote:
On Sep 15, 6:38 pm, Déjà Flu <cha... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
zenworm wrote:
On Sep 15, 7:35 am, Marcus Nickerson <marcusnicker... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:34 pm, zenworm <zensp... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 14, 8:51 pm, brian mitchell <brainm... at (no spam) fishing.net> wrote:
zenworm wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:17 am, norbu_tragri <norbu.tra... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
snip
"Just look, know/feel it without any filters, do not buy into it or
reject it or go nummmmb....
no strategy at all - sheer awareness. If you were ever told "Honesty
is the best policy" - that's what this. If you want find something
real, some sort of sanity, it has to start with you being honest with
yourself. So just look."
- norbu
snip
Thank you norbu
Looking now
Being now
Smiling now
This is Moment
Yeah, probably, maybe... but "just looking" isn't realisation. It may
be a prerequisite, but realisation is to explosively and
**comprehendingly** enter something utterly new. It entails sharp,
sharp cognition as well as awareness. I regularly feel that this
Tangist, quietist, "just looking" lacks some essential dynamism.
Now!
Now! is pretty good, but it carries Past and Future with it to define
it...
Traditionally there was a snap of the fingers -
Before any idea of time...
But if you try to sit and experience that it just becomes a hunt for
another fiction...
Just look at whatever happens helps the whole thought-emotion thing
let off steam and unwind
and rest - no resistance ... keep awareness of posture breath
etc...awake, not dozing off...
i think you have to sit through boredom and exhaustion and sleepiness
and yattering mind a few
times over the hours find posture breath and on-the-spot relax into
the pre-thought insight,
and then to let that go, no idea to continue that or re-create it...
Mindfulness of body, breath, etc...just simple...
- n.
Moment is verb
being this is timeless
mind is irrelevant
abyss swallows all
surrender of survival is
being -of- not knowing
paradox is manifest
unknown is unknowable
Totality is present
there is nothing 'else'
Moment is Totality
the isness of Totality
seamless
instant
timeless
eternal
now being now being now
not two
Moment is verb
gag me with a noun
But didn't he take his refuge vowels?
/leebert
no no no those were refuse bowels...
Did you like my vulture suit, btw?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyUqI0cS8s&feature=player_embedded
I'm the one that got the liver. See the can of Goya fava beans
under my right wing and the bottle of Chiante under the left?
That's me.
a bit different to feeding the ducks. Fu!!
possum
I just *knew* that feather was gonna give me away...
hya janjan
helloo you fuey : )
i think i'd like to see the disney cartoon version. old walt knew his
ducks right enough. bad tempered with a funny voice is taken by
donald...what would he have made of vic the vulture? : )
possum
Fu bird?

i'm getting it now... vinnie the vulture, (don'y you know anything
about disney fu?) new joisey accent, your poissonality, and wears
round specs with those dangley laces round his ruff cos he keeps
losing them when feeding.

alternatively, we could have fu the fulture. talks with a swedish
accent, like the muppet chef, make it a romping Carry On, and transfer
the sky funerals to the Alps. it could work! : ) : )

possum

On Sep 14, 7:17 am, norbu_tragri <norbu.tra... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:



On Sep 12, 8:55 am, Tang Huyen <tanghuyen{dele... at (no spam) gmail.com[remove]
When one imagines that the whole universe is turned
into friendliness or compassion or sympathetic joy or
equanimity or earth or water or fire or blue or yellow,
all of that occurs only in one's imagination and not
outside of it (iow, the universe does not actually turn
into friendliness or compassion or sympathetic joy or
equanimity or earth or water or fire or blue or yellow).
Those states are called without duality, without limit
(advayam appamanam, advayam apramanam), but
they are *deluded* and not awakened at all, except
for the last of the four Divine Dwellings, equanimity.

Yep. They go into the the four formal dhyanas and the four formless
states.
These states were learned by Sakyamuni from his last two Hindu
teachers before he found liberation from suffering. They are
dangerously impressive, but they do not lead to liberation from
suffering. Another name for the highest is "the peak of samsara".

Thank you for iterating this point. Having dabbled in them I can say
that although they are supernal, they are distracting as they require
a devotion all to themselves. To me it was bad therapy for a novice.

I've tried to convey this to Jeffrey Brooks in his "Ecstatic
Buddhism / Fourth Wheel" groups & got steamrolled. I'm concerned that
a declared Fourth Wheel movement would become more about engendering
forms - like reifying jhanas into stinking newage. Garf!

Buddhism may use suchlike voluntary adhesions, but
only as mere means and not as ends in themselves,
again except for the last of the four Divine Dwellings,
equanimity. While cultivating them (and this includes
the four Divine Dwellings), one has to contemplate
them as impermanent, suffering, no-self, etc., and one
has to *let go of them* and not cling to them.

Although supernal they are penultimate. Just because they are beatific
they are not quintessential. If an inexperienced meditator can
experience & repeat them (difficult) I'm not entirely sure what
milestone they establish.

I'm not the least bit studied on this
matter, but calling them "attainments" starts to smell like score-
keeping, ego building credentialism, as bad as Hemp Shirt Piety.

Granted that being able to experience Mind as an intrinsic sensation
to its own establishes Mind possessing qualia not observed while
mentating or in other meditative flavors, but it appears to me that
supernal states still require self attendant as part of concentration
(albeit not in the typical vein of ordinary mind).

Also, leaving supernal states is samsaric and likewise for seeking
them again. But letting go of forms & getting into the present moment,
I'm thinking a phase shift needn't be there.

/leebert

On Sep 15, 7:10 am, Marcus Nickerson <marcusnicker... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:



On Sep 14, 8:08 am, luchayana superfly del pseudomodo

leebertar... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
norbu:

Tang:
When one imagines that the whole universe is turned
into friendliness or compassion or sympathetic joy or
equanimity or earth or water or fire or blue or yellow,
all of that occurs only in one's imagination and not
outside of it (iow, the universe does not actually turn
into friendliness or compassion or sympathetic joy or
equanimity or earth or water or fire or blue or yellow).
Those states are called without duality, without limit
(advayam appamanam, advayam apramanam), but
they are *deluded* and not awakened at all, except
for the last of the four Divine Dwellings, equanimity.

Yep. They go into the the four formal dhyanas and the four formless
states.
These states were learned by Sakyamuni from his last two Hindu
teachers before he found liberation from suffering. They are
dangerously impressive, but they do not lead to liberation from
suffering. Another name for the highest is "the peak of samsara".

Buddhism may use suchlike voluntary adhesions, but
only as mere means and not as ends in themselves,
again except for the last of the four Divine Dwellings,
equanimity. While cultivating them (and this includes
the four Divine Dwellings), one has to contemplate
them as impermanent, suffering, no-self, etc., and one
has to *let go of them* and not cling to them.

Blue petaled lotus:
The pure sensation of mind!
Which jhana izit!?

There are a number of different traditions regarding dhyanas starting
from a blue lotus!
Those dhyanas are not the four dhyanas and four formless states
referred to above, which are the
basic dhyana and formless states which Siddharta trained in before
finding liberation.  :

One discerns that

If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this
towards the dimension of the infinitude of space
and to develop the mind along those lines,
that would be fabricated.

One discerns that

If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this
towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness
and to develop the mind along those lines,
that would be fabricated.

One discerns that

If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this
towards the dimension of nothingness
and to develop the mind along those lines,
that would be fabricated.

One discerns that

If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this
towards the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception
and to develop the mind along those lines,
that would be fabricated.

One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming
or un-becoming.
This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world
(does not cling to anything in the world).

Unsustained, one is not agitated.
Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within.
One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task
done.
There is nothing further for this world.'

   - MN 140

from another translation:

"'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow.
And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a
sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was it said?

'I am' is a construing.
'I am this' is a construing.
'I shall be' is a construing.
'I shall not be'...
'I shall be possessed of form'...
'I shall not be possessed of form'...
'I shall be percipient'...
'I shall not be percipient'...
'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing.

Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an
arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace.

 from MN 140

Another stark statement of the uselessness of the dhyanas and formless
states:

"The Tathagata -- a worthy one, rightly self-awakened -- directly
knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not
conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does
not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as
'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because the Tathagata
has comprehended it to the end, I tell you.

"He directly knows water as water... fire as fire... wind as wind...
beings as beings... gods as gods... Pajapati as Pajapati... Brahma as
Brahma... the luminous gods as luminous gods... the gods of refulgent
glory as gods of refulgent glory... the gods of abundant fruit as the
gods of abundant fruit... the Great Being as the Great Being... the
dimension of the infinitude of space as the dimension of the
infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of
consciousness as the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness...
the dimension of nothingness as the dimension of nothingness... the
dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception as the dimension of
neither-perception-nor-non-perception... the seen as the seen... the
heard as the heard... the sensed as the sensed... the cognized as the
cognized... singleness as singleness... multiplicity as
multiplicity... the All as the All...

He *directley knows*:

The Mahabhutas:
earth/solidity, water/cohesion, fire/temperture, wind/motility

Beings:
beings,
gods, Pajapati, Brahma, luminous gods, gods of refulgent glory, gods
of abundant fruit, the Great Being

Infinitudes:
infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, neither
perception nor non-perception

The Sensed:
the seen, the heard, the sensed

The Thought:
the cognized, singleness, multiplicity, the All

he does not cling to or delight in these i.e.,does not form notions or
ambitions about these, for such clinging is the root of the nidanas,
the cause of suffering. - nt.

"He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding
as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not
conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of
Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in
cling to> Unbinding. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has
comprehended it to the end, I tell you.

"The Tathagata -- a worthy one, rightly self-awakened -- directly
knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not
conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does
not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as
'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has known
that delight <clinging> is the root of suffering & stress, that from
coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into
being there is aging & death <i.e.,the twelve nidanas...>. Therefore,
with the total ending <of craving>, fading away <of craving>,
cessation <of craving>, letting go <of craving>, relinquishment of
craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the unexcelled right
self-awakening, I tell you.

"He directly knows water as water... the All as the All...

"He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding
as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not
conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of
Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in
Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root
of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and
that for what has come into being there is aging & death. Therefore,
with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go,
relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the
unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you."

That is what the Blessed One said. Displeased <? some other trans
possible?>, the monks did not delight in <did not cling to> the
Blessed One's words.

       <for the Boss had just taught "delight is the root of suffering
& stress".?

     -  Majjhima Nikaya 1

"delight" above is a less than great translation for clinging/
grasping...when delight/joy/etc is a simple reaction we just look -
that is mindfulness - clinging to it sets conditioned-coproduction
(pratitya-samutpada) in motion, the 12 links of samsara, etc etc - the
jargon language way of describing it. The basic idea is you cook up a
story and believe in it.

Mindfulness is just look....just look...simple, honest, on the spot,
no baggage, no dogma -
Peacefulness-Insight lead to liberations, the dhyanas do not - they
are a dead end. The Buddha said so in the above quotes. Those are
Threavada quotes, but if you want Mahayana, Vajrayana, Ch'an/Zen
quotes to that same line i can post them.

  - hope this is interesting,
      - n.

Very.

Would it be too succinct - or wrong - to condense the above teaching
that the quintessential stateless state is the dropping of all forms,
actions and intents, a stateless state that experiences essence
directly?

WRT to lotus meditative states, these are not the Jhanas the Buddha
taught. I've read many conflicting statements about them and samadhi,
leading me to believe that many people are not fully versed in the
myriad qualia of Mind possible during meditation.

The conclusion that any altered state is just as impermanent and
transient as anything else seems to me almost a given, but the
tendency to elevate them into Attainments seems a common temptation.

Curious though: Feeling the sensation of Mind itself as a zillion-
petaled blue energy lotus, what *is* that anyway?

/leebert

..lotus as pure or cakra energy...etc. It's your poem, so to speak,
and no one else can tell you what it means.

On Sep 16, 6:07 am, norbu_tragri <norbu.tra... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

..lotus as pure or cakra energy...etc. It's your poem, so to speak,
and no one else can tell you what it means.

Were I to take parallels from what I've read if it's not a jhana/
dhyana I'd venture a guess it was an upper chakra (?crown? ?nirvana
chakra?). It was energy, gazillion pontilist blue Mind motes. It's
always remained a curiosity ... once I got over the thrill and anger
of wanting more.

:-)

/leebert

Would it be too succinct - or wrong - to condense the above teaching
that the quintessential stateless state is the dropping of all forms,
actions and intents, a stateless state that experiences essence
directly?

For various reasons "essence" is usually avoided on the Bist NGs.

"Essence" in
English can refer to a substantial Entity or to what preceeds
perception/ideation, etc.
Concept or beyond concept, finite or ineffable. Being highly
ambiguous, folks usually take it to mean the worst! ;

Don't worry about what you experience being in one dogma or another...
It's your's. That's all it has to be. Just look at it. Let it be.
Good or bad it will happen again and again - just be with it, not
rejecting ot buying into it, just there 100% - it's getting to know
yourself and finding some peace in uncertainty...

There are many blue lotus and flower meditations throughout
buddhadharma techniques,
in other religions sacred roses, pollen ways, etc   it's how intuition
keys into what happens before words...

On Sep 16, 6:07 am, norbu_tragri <norbu.tra... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

Would it be too succinct - or wrong - to condense the above teaching
that the quintessential stateless state is the dropping of all forms,
actions and intents, a stateless state that experiences essence
directly?

For various reasons "essence" is usually avoided on the Bist NGs.

What? Another point of jargon confusion?

"Essence" in
English can refer to a substantial Entity or to what preceeds
perception/ideation, etc.
Concept or beyond concept, finite or ineffable. Being highly
ambiguous, folks usually take it to mean the worst! ;

How 'bout in the vein of Dr. Strangelove ... y'know?

"...Jack ... When did you first... develop this theory?

"Well it was ...during the physical act of love ... a profound sense
of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily ... I was able
to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.

"...I can assure you it has not recurred ... women sense my power and
they seek the life essence. I ... do not avoid women ... but I do deny
them my essence...."

Don't worry about what you experience being in one dogma or another...
It's your's. That's all it has to be. Just look at it. Let it be.
Good or bad it will happen again and again - just be with it, not
rejecting ot buying into it, just there 100% - it's getting to know
yourself and finding some peace in uncertainty...

Worry? What me worry? No, just like to do know if anybody else
ever ... ahhhh, 'twas a long time ago anyway. :-)

There are many blue lotus and flower meditations throughout
buddhadharma techniques,
in other religions sacred roses, pollen ways, etc   it's how intuition
keys into what happens before words...

Heh. Set it aside. Some day, another time.

ThanksNorbu....

/leebert