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Religion Forum Index » Christian Forum - General Discussion » One faith, one Bible -- but two races
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| Author |
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| Dr. Jai Maharaj |
 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:44 pm |
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One faith, one Bible -- but two races
Forwarded message from "G.Subramaniam" <gsubrec@comcast.net>
[ Subject: One faith, one Bible -- but two races
[ From: "G.Subramaniam" <gsubrec@comcast.net>
[ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-evang14.html
One faith, one Bible -- but two races
By Cathleen Falsani
Religion Reporter
February 14, 2005
For evangelical Christians in Chicago, the most daunting
task ahead of them might well be bridging the racial
divide in their midst.
Despite sharing the same theological beliefs about the
Bible, Jesus Christ and evangelism, "Blacks avoid the
'evangelical' term," said Michael Emerson, a professor of
sociology at the University of Notre Dame and co-author
of the book Divided by Faith: Evangelical Religion and
the Problem of Race in America.
"Historically, white evangelicals have been on the side
of opposing racial change, supporting the status quo,"
Emerson said. "So, sociologically and socially, there are
huge chasms between the two groups. For Christian blacks,
the term 'evangelical' itself implies 'white.' "
The Rev. James Meeks, pastor of Salem Baptist Church on
the South Side, is among a minority of African-American
Protestants who call themselves "evangelicals." Meeks
didn't always use the term evangelical to describe
himself. And though he believes it accurately describes
him theologically, he said he understands why other black
Christians find it ill-fitting.
"Evangelical seems to mean Republican, it seems to mean
white, it seems to mean anti-social programs," Meeks
said. "If 'evangelical' means that the Scriptures are
supreme, that Jesus is Lord and savior and that the world
is supposed to somehow be converted to the Christian
world and way of life, then that's what I believe. But
when you start looking at where we are socially, then
you've got a whole other bag of tricks.
"Our church's social agenda and the social agenda of the
white evangelical church is totally different," he said.
"It seems as if the flaw in the white evangelical church
is that it will fight tooth and nail to protect an unborn
child in the womb, but won't lift a finger to assist a
child once it's been born.
"Where is the [white] evangelical church on issues
outside of abortion and outside of homosexuality?"
Meeks and seven other pastors of some of the largest
evangelical Christian churches in the Chicago area -- a
group known informally as "the Gatekeepers" -- met in
December to get to know one another. The pastors -- four
white, three black and one Hispanic -- also wanted to
strategize about doing something together to make a
positive impact on Chicago and put a more compassionate
public face on evangelicalism.
While Meeks said he has high hopes for what the
Gatekeepers group might accomplish, the results of their
first meeting illustrate the obstacles white and black
evangelicals face.
"There's a fundamental difference between blacks and
whites," Meeks said. "We would leave a meeting like that
. . and a black person would say, 'Let's do something.'
White people leave a meeting saying, 'Let's plan
something.' That's what they want to do. White people
want to plan something."
That difference goes beyond style, Emerson said.
"I saw this perfectly illustrated at . . . a big planning
meeting in Dallas," Emerson said. "You had all kinds of
well-known black and white pastors . . . And what
happened was it just divided right down the middle --
black and white -- with white guys saying, 'We need more
time, we need to plan, we can't do this right away,' and
the blacks saying, 'When are we going to stop talking
about stuff and do it?'
"This is the continual frustration. Whites, even when
they're well-meaning, still seem to have control. So it
breaks down because it's not done the way they want."
Meeks said he worries that the Gatekeepers group will get
stuck in the planning stage because its members won't be
able to decide which social ill they should try to
address.
"Most [white] evangelicals think the reason the African-
American people are in the condition they're in is
because it's their own fault, that somehow they've not
applied themselves, that they're lethargic about life,
they want a handout, they don't want to work as hard as
white people do," Meeks said. "And so for us to throw
money at kid care and free lunch or social programs is
really an enabling crutch. Blacks look at it as if ...
everything has its roots in slavery."
The differences between black and white evangelicals in
the way they view themselves and each other amounts to a
"huge chasm," Emerson said.
"When I say 'whites opposing racial justice and whites
opposing overcoming poverty,' they don't see it that way,
of course," Emerson said. "The religious tools that
[white] evangelicals use are completely individualistic.
There are no social problems, there are only problems
with individuals. There are no social problems, so you
don't address those things.
"But, for black evangelicals, there are, and that's the
fundamental difference. It can be seen as a theological
difference as well."
Black evangelicals are sometimes more apt to take action
than their white counterparts because of spiritual
reasons, said the Rev. John Eckhardt, who is one of the
Gatekeepers and pastor of Crusader Ministries in Chicago.
"In our ministry, we generally believe in inspiration. We
act quickly on things we feel God is doing," said
Eckhardt, whose church draws about 5,000 worshippers,
most of them African-American, each weekend. "We trust
the Holy Spirit to give us things divinely and
supernaturally. . . . [White evangelicals] may be more
rational and discuss it more. That's the frustration I
have."
For years, Meeks and the Rev. Bill Hybels, pastor of
Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, have
been getting to know one another as colleagues and
friends. They also have been trying to plan an exchange
between their two enormous congregations. They have
talked about having a portion of their congregants swap
church services, have dinner or hold another social
activity where they can experience one another's worlds.
"The fact that it hasn't occurred yet is more a matter of
scheduling than it is a matter of heart," Hybels said.
"We have a wonderful rapport and a genuine desire to see
our churches do something in community.
"A lot of what causes evangelicals to pull together, when
it's all said and done, is the actual relating patterns
of the leaders involved. When there is a genuine
friendship and likability and kinship or kindred spirits,
per se, it makes all of that happen with higher levels of
joy, or enthusiasm, or something. And Reverend Meeks and
I feel that very powerfully with each other.
"When we're together, we feel like we're kind of cut out
of the same cloth," he said. "We're interested in the
same issues, and we both look at the local church and how
they need to be led."
A couple of months ago, when the two had a meeting at
Salem Baptist, Hybels said he actually flew to an airport
nearby instead of spending two-plus hours in traffic
between South Barrington and the Far South Side.
"Have you done that drive?" Hybels said with chuckle. "I
could fly to Denver and have a meeting as easily as I
could drive in traffic and have a meeting with Meeks."
Still, Hybels, Meeks and their congregations have managed
to schedule a few events together. And, in June, for the
second year, a group composed of people half from Willow
Creek and half from Salem will spend a week together on a
"Justice Journey" visiting historical civil rights-era
sites in Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi.
Meeks and Hybels believe it's just the beginning of a
long relationship between their churches, which they hope
will become an example for the rest of the evangelical
community -- here and beyond.
But unless black and white evangelicals deal with the
painful issues of race that divide them, the spiritual
unity they desire might be impossible to attain, Emerson
said.
"What it's going to hinge on is what white evangelical
leaders and the white evangelical church are willing to
do," he said. "If they continue to oppose racial justice
and trying to overcome poverty and things, they're not
going to make much progress."
Beyond black and white: the new face of evangelicalism
By Cathleen Falsani
Religion Reporter
In 2000, when the Rev. Wilfredo De'Jesus became pastor of
the Chicago congregation his father-in-law had led for 35
years, Palestine Christian Temple Assemblies of God had
about 125 active members and held its services in
Spanish.
Five years later, New Life Covenant Assemblies of God --
as De'Jesus' Humboldt Park congregation is now known --
draws 1,700 people to three weekend services, two of them
in English, one in Spanish.
"I made a promise to God that I would do everything
possible, that was my promise, to reach anybody, wherever
they're at, for the cause of Jesus," De'Jesus said.
New Life is flourishing and growing quickly, much like
the rest of the Chicago area's Hispanic evangelical
community. There are no definitive numbers to reflect the
size of the Hispanic evangelical community here or
nationally -- pollsters say the community is still too
small to count accurately in the broader surveys of
American religious practices. Still, scholars say
Hispanics might be the fastest-growing group of
evangelicals in the country.
In the next decade or two, many more Hispanic and Asian
faces will appear in the increasingly diverse family
portrait of Chicago area evangelicals, said Mark Noll,
co-founder of the Institute for the Study of American
Evangelicals at Wheaton College, who is widely regarded
as the leading scholar of American evangelicals. "As
Hispanic incomes rise, there is going to be more
integration, and Asian integration already takes place."
The Institute for the Study of American Evangelicals is
in the midst of examining this phenomenon through a
project called "The Changing Face of American
Evangelicalism," said Noll's colleague, Edith Blumhofer,
director of the institute.
"The interest was basically in what might an evangelical
conversation be like if the people around the table
actually reflected the faces, the ethnicities and the
traditions that are out there rather than have the
conversation controlled by, well, older white males,"
Blumhofer said.
Throughout Chicago and the suburbs, many Hispanic and
Asian evangelical congregations -- Korean, Chinese and
pan-Asian, in particular -- are expanding from largely
first- and second-generation immigrant congregations to
multigenerational churches that reflect a variety of
religious traditions from mainline Protestant to
nondenominational charismatic.
Evangelical congregations such as the Chinese Christian
Union Church in Chicago's Chinatown neighborhood and
Canaan Presbyterian Church in Glenview draw hundreds of
worshippers each weekend and run social service
ministries as well.
"The Asian-American community right now is in
transition," said the Rev. Peter Cha, a professor of
practical theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
in Deerfield who has written extensively about Asian-
American evangelicals. "Up until very recently, when you
talked about Asian-American experiences or
representations, it would be predominantly ethnic-
language speaking, first-generation immigrants.
"We kind of have to wait for our turn, so to speak, in
order to be more visible leaders. I would say 10, 20
years from now, the picture will change. Those who have
been born and raised and trained in the United States who
are evangelical Christians will be both respected leaders
within their own community, and using their communal
bases to speak to the larger audiences."
Evangelicals: Beyond the Label
Cathleen Falsani examines who evangelicals are, where
they came from, and how widespread their clout in society
is today.
o Part 1: The Image Problem
o Part 2: Jesus Clout
o Part 3: Divided by Faith
End of forwarded message from "G.Subramaniam" <gsubrec@comcast.net>
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
Hindu Holocaust Museum
http://www.mantra.com/holocaust
Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
http://www.hindu.org
http://www.hindunet.org
The truth about Islam and Muslims
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
The terrorist mission of Jesus stated in the Christian bible:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not so send
peace, but a sword.
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the
daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in
law.
"And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
- Matthew 10:34-36.
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| Le Géant |
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:26 am |
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ATTACKS ON DALIT WOMEN: A PATTERN OF IMPUNITY
Singularly positioned at the bottom of India’s caste, class, and gender
hierarchies, largely uneducated and consistently paid less than their
male counterparts, Dalit women make up the majority of landless laborers
and scavengers, as well as a significant percentage of the women forced
into prostitution in rural areas or sold into urban brothels. As such,
they come into greater contact with landlords and enforcement agencies
than their upper-caste counterparts. Their subordinate position is
exploited by those in power who carry out their attacks with impunity.
Throughout this report, Human Rights Watch has documented the use of
sexual abuse and other forms of violence against Dalit women as tools by
landlords and the police to inflict political “lessons” and crush
dissent and labor movements within Dalit communities. In
Laxmanpur-Bathe, Bihar, women were raped and mutilated before being
massacred by members of the Ranvir Sena in 1997; in Bihar and Tamil
Nadu, women have been beaten, arrested, and sometimes tortured during
violent search and raid operations on Dalit villages in recent years.
Like other Indian women whose relatives are sought by the police, Dalit
women have also been arrested and raped in custody as a means of
punishing their male relatives who are hiding from the police. As very
young women, they are forced into prostitution in temples under the
devadasi system.
Cases documented by India's National Commission for Women, by local and
national nongovernmental women's rights organizations, and by the press,
reveal a pattern of impunity in attacks on women consistent with our
findings. In all cases of attacks on women documented in this report,
the accused state and private actors escaped punishment; in most cases,
attacks were neither investigated nor prosecuted. Until recently, the
plight of Dalit women has also been neglected by various political
movements. As explained by Ruth Manorama, head of the newly constituted
National Federation for Dalit Women:
Dalit women are at the bottom in our community. Within the women's
movement, Dalit issues have not been taken seriously. Within the Dalit
movement, women have been ignored. Caste, class, and gender need to be
looked at together. Dalit women have contributed to this discourse...
Women's labor is alreadyundervalued; when she is a Dalit, it is nil...
The atrocities are also much more vulgar.
Other activists echo the notion that women are hit the hardest in
everyday life and during caste clashes. One activist told Human Rights
Watch, “Sexual violence is linked to debt bondage in rural areas.”
Another commented on the need to give priority to women’s cases:
Making women eat human defecation, parading them naked, gang rapes,
these are women-specific crimes. Gang rapes are mostly of Dalit women.
These cases should be given top priority, requiring immediate action and
immediate punishment |
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| ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com |
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:37 am |
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Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
Quote: One faith, one Bible -- but two races
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-evang14.html
For years, Meeks and the Rev. Bill Hybels, pastor of
Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, have
been getting to know one another as colleagues and
friends. They also have been trying to plan an exchange
between their two enormous congregations. They have
talked about having a portion of their congregants swap
church services, have dinner or hold another social
activity where they can experience one another's worlds.
When are tribal Gond priests of goddess Khaimata and Brahmin priests
going to get to know one another as colleagues and friends, and when
are Gonds and Brahmins going to swap services, have dinner together or
hold other social activity where they can experience one another's
worlds? |
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| Marcus Aurelius |
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:24 pm |
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None of this is important. The only important question to be answered
by the state is: Why can't the Gond ignore Brahmins the way Brahmins
ignore the Gonds (if they do, and if they ALL do that - it is yet to be
established as true)?
Each human must be able to survive independently of others and
independently of the wishes of others - that is the only measure of a
free state. Of course, that means employment opportunities should be
monitored for the presence (or absence) of communal preferences and
employers punished for doing so.
You can't force anyone to like someone else. But you can make it so
that this like/dislike is irrelevant in the material aspects of every
human being's life. Harassment, when it interferes with life, is also
criminal here.
Adi Anant |
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| Roy Chang |
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:17 pm |
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Guest
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"ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1108474677.529747.123430@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>...
Quote: Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
One faith, one Bible -- but two races
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-evang14.html
For years, Meeks and the Rev. Bill Hybels, pastor of
Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, have
been getting to know one another as colleagues and
friends. They also have been trying to plan an exchange
between their two enormous congregations. They have
talked about having a portion of their congregants swap
church services, have dinner or hold another social
activity where they can experience one another's worlds.
When are tribal Gond priests of goddess Khaimata and Brahmin priests
going to get to know one another as colleagues and friends, and when
are Gonds and Brahmins going to swap services, have dinner together or
hold other social activity where they can experience one another's
worlds?
What are the known pre-Dravidian gods/goddesses amongst the Santalis/Gonds?
Are they normally shakti worshippers(ie Amman, Santosh etc )?
Thanks
Roy |
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| Parayan |
| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:56 am |
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Should n't there be thousands of castes, billions of gods and hundreds
of godmen/godwome, godcows and other god-animals |
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| ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com |
| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:16 pm |
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Guest
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Roy Chang wrote:
Quote: "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:<1108474677.529747.123430@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>...
Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
One faith, one Bible -- but two races
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-evang14.html
For years, Meeks and the Rev. Bill Hybels, pastor of
Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, have
been getting to know one another as colleagues and
friends. They also have been trying to plan an exchange
between their two enormous congregations. They have
talked about having a portion of their congregants swap
church services, have dinner or hold another social
activity where they can experience one another's worlds.
When are tribal Gond priests of goddess Khaimata and Brahmin
priests
going to get to know one another as colleagues and friends, and
when
are Gonds and Brahmins going to swap services, have dinner together
or
hold other social activity where they can experience one another's
worlds?
What are the known pre-Dravidian gods/goddesses amongst the
Santalis/Gonds?
Are they normally shakti worshippers(ie Amman, Santosh etc )?z
Are Japanese Buddhists normally Vishnu worshipers? Not unless they
think the Buddha is Vishnu. Are adivasis Shakti worishpers? Not unless
they think their goddesses are shakti. 3rd parties claiming that
they're Shakti worshipers might be trying to make a case to oppose a
viewpoint that tribals are not Hindus.
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| Roy Chang |
| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:19 pm |
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Guest
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"ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1108574199.322760.241140@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
Quote: Roy Chang wrote:
"ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:<1108474677.529747.123430@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>...
Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
One faith, one Bible -- but two races
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-evang14.html
For years, Meeks and the Rev. Bill Hybels, pastor of
Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, have
been getting to know one another as colleagues and
friends. They also have been trying to plan an exchange
between their two enormous congregations. They have
talked about having a portion of their congregants swap
church services, have dinner or hold another social
activity where they can experience one another's worlds.
When are tribal Gond priests of goddess Khaimata and Brahmin
priests
going to get to know one another as colleagues and friends, and
when
are Gonds and Brahmins going to swap services, have dinner together
or
hold other social activity where they can experience one another's
worlds?
What are the known pre-Dravidian gods/goddesses amongst the
Santalis/Gonds?
Are they normally shakti worshippers(ie Amman, Santosh etc )?z
Are Japanese Buddhists normally Vishnu worshipers? Not unless they
think the Buddha is Vishnu. Are adivasis Shakti worishpers? Not unless
they think their goddesses are shakti. 3rd parties claiming that
they're Shakti worshipers might be trying to make a case to oppose a
viewpoint that tribals are not Hindus.
How prevalent is Tribal religion(non-Hindu) in India? Have many
merged their belief system to accomodate Puranic deities? IF so coudl
they have been classed as Hindus? It seems much of them were
obliterated in Nagaland by evangelicals, but what about places like
Jharkhand, Chhatisgarh and Arunachal Pradesh.
Thanks
Roy |
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| ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com |
| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:21 pm |
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Guest
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Roy Chang wrote:
Quote: "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote ...
Roy Chang wrote:
"ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote ...
Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
One faith, one Bible -- but two races
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-evang14.html
For years, Meeks and the Rev. Bill Hybels, pastor of
Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, have
been getting to know one another as colleagues and
friends. They also have been trying to plan an exchange
between their two enormous congregations. They have
talked about having a portion of their congregants swap
church services, have dinner or hold another social
activity where they can experience one another's worlds.
When are tribal Gond priests of goddess Khaimata and Brahmin
priests going to get to know one another as colleagues and
friends,
and when are Gonds and Brahmins going to swap services, have
dinner
together or hold other social activity where they can
experience one
another's worlds?
What are the known pre-Dravidian gods/goddesses amongst the
Santalis/Gonds?
Are they normally shakti worshippers (ie Amman, Santosh etc )?z
Are Japanese Buddhists normally Vishnu worshipers? Not unless they
think the Buddha is Vishnu. Are adivasis Shakti worishpers? Not
unless
they think their goddesses are shakti. 3rd parties claiming that
they're Shakti worshipers might be trying to oppose a viewpoint
that
tribals are not Hindus.
How prevalent is Tribal religion (non-Hindu) in India?
Have many merged their belief system to accomodate Puranic deities?
Yes, but it's difficult to tell how many because most of those claimed
not to be Hindu are claimed to be (claim themselves to be?) Hindu on
census records:
Among the 68 million citizens of India who are members of tribal groups
....
.... One of the most studied tribal religions is that of the Santal of
Orissa, Bihar, and West Bengal, one of the largest tribes in India,
having a population estimated at 4.2 million. According to the 1991
census, however, only 23,645 people listed Santal as their religious
belief.
http://www.indianchild.com/indian_religions_tribal.htm
Quote: IF so could they have been classed as Hindus?
Even otherwise, the government classifies them as Hindus.
Quote: It seems much of them were
obliterated in Nagaland by evangelicals, but what about places like
Jharkhand, Chhatisgarh and Arunachal Pradesh.
They are generally classified as Hindus, and there are no statistics on
how many of them claim not to be Hindus. There are many representatives
of Dalits (who are not tribals) who claim Dalits are not Hindus but
census records don't match their claims either. There are still many
temples that are frequented only by Dalits. It is not known how many of
these Dalits also frequent temples frequented by non-Dalits.
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| Parayan |
| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:10 am |
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Guest
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To fill religion, options are hindu, Muslim, Jew, Christian, Zorastian,
Jain etc. So Dalits are foced to fill their religion as hindu. Officers
who collect census info are hindu and they fill columns as they like. |
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| ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com |
| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:18 pm |
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Guest
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Parayan wrote:
Quote: To fill religion, options are hindu, Muslim, Jew, Christian,
Zorastian,
Jain etc. So Dalits are foced to fill their religion as hindu.
Officers
who collect census info are hindu and they fill columns as they like.
Quite possible, but what do you understand by the following? If there
was a column for listing their belief as "Santal", why did so few
Santals list "Santal" as their religious belief? If there was no column
for listing their belief as "Santal", how did 23,645 Santals list
"Santal" as their religious belief?
One of the most studied tribal religions is that of the Santal of
Orissa, Bihar, and West Bengal, one of the largest tribes in India,
having a population estimated at 4.2 million. According to the 1991
census, however, only 23,645 people listed Santal as their religious
belief.
http://www.indianchild.com/indian_religions_tribal.htm |
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