On Nov 2, 7:28 pm, Demon Buddha <Nob... at (no spam) no.where> wrote:

Life is so much better when most everyone prospers.

If the population growth continue as it is now, our Eco-system
collapses. We are already approaching the limits. In India the
government officials advice people to eat rats
http://current.com/items/89204205_indias-poor-urged-to-eat-rats.htm .
But they still have them. In Africa at some places they have already
eaten everything and anything.

We have passed the era of unlimited expansion, Endless Horizons and
limitless opportunities. It is all behind us. Our future if our Lord
endows us with the common sense is in balance and self-limitation.

Old Pif wrote:
On Nov 2, 7:28 pm, Demon Buddha <Nob... at (no spam) no.where> wrote:

Life is so much better when most everyone prospers.

If the population growth continue as it is now, our Eco-system
collapses. We are already approaching the limits. In India the
government officials advice people to eat rats
http://current.com/items/89204205_indias-poor-urged-to-eat-rats.htm .
But they still have them. In Africa at some places they have already
eaten everything and anything.

We have passed the era of unlimited expansion, Endless Horizons and
limitless opportunities. It is all behind us. Our future if our Lord
endows us with the common sense is in balance and self-limitation.

Assuming this is so, which of us will be the first to volunteer to
step into the disintegration chambers? Or does anyone think that the
population will not continue to grow significantly for at least one more
generation even of most people stopped fucking yesterday?

And, at least on my newsserver you, Mr. Demon Buddha, did not answer my
long response to your bountiful effervescence about capitalism and your
own kingly role in it.

Me wrote:

And, at least on my newsserver you, Mr. Demon Buddha, did not answer my
long response to your bountiful effervescence about capitalism and your own
kingly role in it.

Never saw it. Could you repost? It is not available on my server,
for whatever reason.

Thanks.

phil scott wrote:

nice quote, thanks... it is true, today we have bogus management
theory based on
a complete lack of understanding or the rest of life.

Could you give a few examples of such bogus theories?

what they may be and why you think that way about them. When I did my MBA
the management theories I learned strongly reinforced my experience-based
knowledge from 25 years of being in business.

One thing that I would warn people against is taking what they get
from the media too much to heart. Most business managers I have known and
worked with, which by now numbers over 1000 (nature of my business) are very
ethical, honest, smart, and capable people.

The media sell misery and drama.

That is what gets the ad dollars. Typical news, IMO, represents a highly
concentrated and therefore highly distorted picture of realities such as the
general demeanor of businessmen. How often do they do stories on those who
run their companies efficiently while providing value to customers and good
environments for employees? Not that often,

common cognitive "habit", as it were, of people to rapidly forget good news
while retaining the bad. All of this serves to build mental castles of ugly
gray stone wherein the actors are all Eville(tm) and nasty. As this applies
to business, it is generally very misleading.

To be sure, there are bad actors out there. It also appears to me
that it requires just a few to wreak great harm on the rest, much as just a
few small, well placed charges can take down an office building in seconds
whereas erecting it may have taken years.

phenomenon.

One of my clients, is not educated
but his construction business prospers as others around here went from
700 staff to zero.

But this does not impeach a formal business education.

Just prior to
graduation, the CEO of some huge company came to us and set us straight about
what our training represented. He was quick to point out that the only thing
it really signifies is that we had been initiated into a brotherhood of sorts
and that we possessed certain knowledge that most others do not - and that
was it. It didn't make us smarter than anyone else - it didn't entitle us to
anything special. It only alerts hiring managers of things we should know.
It is a foot in a door. The rest is up to us - we must prove ourselves
through action just as anyone else must. I think that was a pretty good way
of presenting reality to the class.

I, too, have known people who not only had some natural knack for
business, they acted upon it and through that combination of innate ability,
experience, action, and attitude, they too prospered where others may have
failed.

I wont spill his secrets here, but they are sophisticated comon
sense..he beats the pants off of his competition.

I have managed projects where I was directly responsible for hundreds
of millions of someone else's money. That is a lot of responsibility. My
management style has always worked well for me and those around me, and there
is a simple "secret" to it that most people simply don't get: treat people
well and they will march into the gates of hell for you without you even
having to ask.

those around me. If my team succeeds, it means I did my job well. If they
fail, chances are that it is my fault. There is much about management and
leadership that Johnny Q. has no clue about. It isn't esoteric or complex,
yet most just are incapable of practicing it - or unwilling. We could write
books on this, and many have. One way of looking at it is the good old
Golden Rule. Always ask yourself how would you like to be treated by a
manager in this situation or that. Unless you are somehow organically
damaged, chances are the answer will never be "like shit" or "like a
commodity".

Me wrote:

Book review from WSJ, Aug 5, 2009

title of book:"The Management Myth"
author: Matthew Stewart

Title of the book review: "Bogus Theories, Bad for Business"
Author of the book review: Philip Delves Broughton

Quote:

"[Matthew Stewart's] ...advice to to anyone considering an MBA was
'don't go to business school, study philosophy.' The secrets of
business, he said, were to be found in history, literature and the
classic ruminations on life and existence, not in the half-baked
ramblings of business academics, consultants and 'gurus'."

        I disagree.  The advice of studying philosophy is well taken, but the
study of business is a worthwhile pursuit as well.  I fully agree that
the notions of the academics have perhaps more than their share of
problems, but studying this system is, IMO, very valuable from several
standpoints.  You just have to take some of what you are taught with a
questioning attitude.  Free enterprise in the form of free markets may
not be perfect but it is the best we have right now.  Studies such as
those for the MBA allow the astute student to compare what is taught
with what is practiced and that simple activity can prove most enlightening.



farther down:

"The business world, according to Mr. Stewart, has become so obsessed
with its own perverse value system and view of human nature that is is
undermining the 'commons' of society."

        This I firmly agree with.  Not everything "common" is communistic,
socialistic, authoritarian, fascistic, or totalitarian.  They key to a
proper... erm... "management" of the so-called "commons" is proper
understanding and a minimalist approach that doesn't go so far minimal
that it finds itself floating in the midst of the Simplistic Sea.
Contrariwise, over-controlling results in equal or greater perdition,
IMO.  So many people appear to have forgotten that thing called the
middle path.



The rest of the book review has additional comments of a similar quality.

Or, maybe we need a contemporary author to write a new, relevant version
of either George Orwell's "1984" or Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World"?

        Shit, I could knock that out in one night's writing.

Oh...shit...we're already living in a dystopia!!!

Its called "globalized" earth!!!

        Sounds purty, but damn is that girl homely.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

phil scott wrot

as this collapse goes ballistic, there will be a trend to the return
of comon sense, it will be that or starvation...

        If this thing gets serious, and up until now it has been just
significantly inconvenient for most, the likelihood is that many will
die.  By "serious" I mean non-trivial food shortages.  When I was
teaching in Harlem and the South Bronx I used to ask my students where
things like meat came from.  They would answer with the sincere offer of
"the store" or some equivalent.  That was 84-86.  The ignorance has
gotten significantly worse since those days.  

For many, common sense is
simply out of their reach in the time frames we could be considering.
People who not only have never known hunger but also never learned how
to do anything real (being some top dog video game jockey doesn't count,
nor does skill in rapping) and are not in the habit of doing for
themselves are going to be in for a very hard time if and when the
bottom really comes out of this thing.



however the feed stock
will be weak ss hell, having not been taught logic, algebra or history
in high school.

        How about how to raise food?  Carpentry?  Blacksmithing?  Marksmanship?
  Basic living skills should be taught to everyone because all this
technological wizardry by which we hang our lives can be gone in short
time.

 When that happens, those who don't know squat better have
something to offer those who can take care of themselves.  Better yet
that they themselves learn those same basics.  But no, that's all passé.
  Hopefully we will never find out whether I am on target or full of it..
  Life is so much better when most everyone prospers.

phil scott wrote:
nice quote, thanks... it is true, today we have bogus management
theory based on
a complete lack of understanding or the rest of life.

        Could you give a few examples of such bogus theories?

 I am curious
what they may be and why you think that way about them.  

When I did my
MBA the management theories I learned strongly reinforced my
experience-based knowledge from 25 years of being in business.

        One thing that I would warn people against is taking what they get from
the media too much to heart.  Most business managers I have known and
worked with, which by now numbers over 1000 (nature of my business) are
very ethical, honest, smart, and capable people.  The media sell misery
and drama.  That is what gets the ad dollars.  Typical news, IMO,
represents a highly concentrated and therefore highly distorted picture
of realities such as the general demeanor of businessmen.  How often do
they do stories on those who run their companies efficiently while
providing value to customers and good environments for employees?  Not
that often, and one must also consider the common cognitive "habit", as
it were, of people to rapidly forget good news while retaining the bad.
  All of this serves to build mental castles of ugly gray stone wherein
the actors are all Eville(tm) and nasty.  As this applies to business,
it is generally very misleading.

        To be sure, there are bad actors out there.  It also appears to me that
it requires just a few to wreak great harm on the rest, much as just a
few small, well placed charges can take down an office building in
seconds whereas erecting it may have taken years.  Entropy is a most
interesting phenomenon.

 > One of my clients, is not educated

but his construction business prospers as others around here went from
700 staff to zero.

        But this does not impeach a formal business education.  Just prior to
graduation, the CEO of some huge company came to us and set us straight
about what our training represented.  He was quick to point out that the
only thing it really signifies is that we had been initiated into a
brotherhood of sorts and that we possessed certain knowledge that most
others do not - and that was it.  It didn't make us smarter than anyone
else - it didn't entitle us to anything special.  It only alerts hiring
managers of things we should know.  It is a foot in a door.  The rest is
up to us - we must prove ourselves through action just as anyone else
must.  I think that was a pretty good way of presenting reality to the
class.

        I, too, have known people who not only had some natural knack for
business, they acted upon it and through that combination of innate
ability, experience, action, and attitude, they too prospered where
others may have failed.



I wont spill his secrets here, but they are sophisticated comon
sense..he beats the pants off of his competition.

        I have managed projects where I was directly responsible for hundreds
of millions of someone else's money.  That is a lot of responsibility.
My management style has always worked well for me and those around me,
and there is a simple "secret" to it that most people simply don't get:
treat people well and they will march into the gates of hell for you
without you even having to ask.  I have always measured my success in
terms of the success of those around me.  If my team succeeds, it means
I did my job well.  If they fail, chances are that it is my fault.

There is much about management and leadership that Johnny Q. has no clue
about.  It isn't esoteric or complex, yet most just are incapable of
practicing it - or unwilling.  We could write books on this, and many
have.  One way of looking at it is the good old Golden Rule.  Always ask
yourself how would you like to be treated by a manager in this situation
or that.  Unless you are somehow organically damaged, chances are the
answer will never be "like shit" or "like a commodity".

phil scott wrote:
nice quote, thanks... it is true, today we have bogus management
theory based on
a complete lack of understanding or the rest of life.

        Could you give a few examples of such bogus theories?  I am curious
what they may be and why you think that way about them.  When I did my
MBA the management theories I learned strongly reinforced my
experience-based knowledge from 25 years of being in business.

        One thing that I would warn people against is taking what they get from
the media too much to heart.  Most business managers I have known and
worked with, which by now numbers over 1000 (nature of my business) are
very ethical, honest, smart, and capable people.  The media sell misery
and drama.  That is what gets the ad dollars.  Typical news, IMO,
represents a highly concentrated and therefore highly distorted picture
of realities such as the general demeanor of businessmen.  How often do
they do stories on those who run their companies efficiently while
providing value to customers and good environments for employees?  Not
that often, and one must also consider the common cognitive "habit", as
it were, of people to rapidly forget good news while retaining the bad.
  All of this serves to build mental castles of ugly gray stone wherein
the actors are all Eville(tm) and nasty.  As this applies to business,
it is generally very misleading.

        To be sure, there are bad actors out there.  It also appears to me that
it requires just a few to wreak great harm on the rest, much as just a
few small, well placed charges can take down an office building in
seconds whereas erecting it may have taken years.  Entropy is a most
interesting phenomenon.

 > One of my clients, is not educated

but his construction business prospers as others around here went from
700 staff to zero.

        But this does not impeach a formal business education.  Just prior to
graduation, the CEO of some huge company came to us and set us straight
about what our training represented.  He was quick to point out that the
only thing it really signifies is that we had been initiated into a
brotherhood of sorts and that we possessed certain knowledge that most
others do not - and that was it.  It didn't make us smarter than anyone
else - it didn't entitle us to anything special.  It only alerts hiring
managers of things we should know.  It is a foot in a door.  The rest is
up to us - we must prove ourselves through action just as anyone else
must.  I think that was a pretty good way of presenting reality to the
class.

        I, too, have known people who not only had some natural knack for
business, they acted upon it and through that combination of innate
ability, experience, action, and attitude, they too prospered where
others may have failed.



I wont spill his secrets here, but they are sophisticated comon
sense..he beats the pants off of his competition.

        I have managed projects where I was directly responsible for hundreds
of millions of someone else's money.  That is a lot of responsibility.
My management style has always worked well for me and those around me,
and there is a simple "secret" to it that most people simply don't get:
treat people well and they will march into the gates of hell for you
without you even having to ask.  I have always measured my success in
terms of the success of those around me.  If my team succeeds, it means
I did my job well.  If they fail, chances are that it is my fault.
There is much about management and leadership that Johnny Q. has no clue
about.  It isn't esoteric or complex, yet most just are incapable of
practicing it - or unwilling.  We could write books on this, and many
have.  One way of looking at it is the good old Golden Rule.  Always ask
yourself how would you like to be treated by a manager in this situation
or that.  Unless you are somehow organically damaged, chances are the
answer will never be "like shit" or "like a commodity".

phil scott wrote:
On Nov 2, 4:28 pm, Demon Buddha <Nob... at (no spam) no.where> wrote:
phil scott wrot

as this collapse goes ballistic, there will be a trend to the return
of comon sense, it will be that or starvation...
        If this thing gets serious, and up until now it has been just
significantly inconvenient for most, the likelihood is that many will
die.  By "serious" I mean non-trivial food shortages.  When I was
teaching in Harlem and the South Bronx I used to ask my students where
things like meat came from.  They would answer with the sincere offer of
"the store" or some equivalent.  That was 84-86.  The ignorance has
gotten significantly worse since those days.  

indeed and these look so normal, even competent otherwise,   its that
way
as high as you go in business and industry... and in education.

Id like to know, what happens when you tell the kid meat comes from
living
animals then show them cows and carcases,,, etc,  a simple fix but you
dont see it happening,,, whats up with that?

        The goal of the US school systems is to provide useful training and
"socialization" (social engineering) to students.  Education is most
certainly not on the menu.  When I was teaching, any time I tried
something new to get the kids interested, my AP would pull the plug
citing "legalities".  To my horror, that man is now at Columbia's school
of "education", no doubt further mucking the works for the coming
generations.

do they stick you with incompent texts or as in chemistry leave out
atomic
theory and whatever

        The litany of egregious offenses of which school administrators are
guilty would take me years to fully describe here.

        How about how to raise food?  Carpentry?  Blacksmithing?  Marksmanship?
  Basic living skills should be taught to everyone because all this
technological wizardry by which we hang our lives can be gone in short
time.

yes,insight, capability,productive skills sets and work ethic  that
took decades to build die  **instantly...

        We call that "entropy" in the engineering world.

 mostly the potential replacements have had an easy life. no
motivation to gain valuable skills, or even appreciate them,.. these
become
managers in too many cases because their focus has been socially, with
no regard for function,,,but socially these become dominant..and fire
the technical talent.  or seek to drive the pay rates down.... so
these move on...then the culture collapses

        When the culture collapses, which we are not even close to yet, those
managers will be some of the first to die.  The "talent" will know how
to do things.  To hell with the rest.  They have had plenty of
opportunity to come around.  Let them die.

we are at that threshold, there is no support now or historically for
a reversal,,

        The nexus is upon us, that much I also believe.  If it goes badly, I
suspect it will be very bad.  It is not clear, however, that we indeed
have the choice to keep limping along lamely has we have for the past 40
years.  Something is going to have to change and I fear that those
changes stand to be rather ugly.  Freedom is a terminally endangered
thing.  We can save it, but I am not confident that we will.

nations are living organisms they die,,, and all on schedule..

        They *can* behave in such an analogous manner, but I do not believe
that they must.  Ancient Sumer went on as it did for a couple of
thousands of years.  That should tell us something about what must or
must not happen.

exceptions were the nomad nations with no written language or money,
just barter,,, those last a thousand years or more,,, there is not
much to pervert,,, each person is competent or dies off because he
cant hunt or cope,  so the group stays strong

        Agreed, but the conditions of life leave precious little room for
tolerance of dishonorable behavior.

 That is one of the key differences
between them and us.  We are so overly spoiled in a sense that we are
able to get away with taking many liberties with other peoples' rights
and freedoms.



with money the incompetent can be supported... supporting incompetence
is fatal   etc  the money is perverted

        Not the money - the ethics.  The *people*.  Never make the mistake of
attributing to inanimate things that which lies at the feet of humans.

That is like blaming guns for murder and robbery, or that stupidly
quoted nonsense that "power corrupts".  People corrupt.  There is a
decent quote that jabs at this:

         It's not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or
destiny that feeds them to dogs.  It's us.  Only us.
                                                 --Rorschach, Watchmen



 When that happens, those who don't know squat better have
something to offer those who can take care of themselves.  Better yet
that they themselves learn those same basics.  But no, that's all passé.
  Hopefully we will never find out whether I am on target or full of it.
  Life is so much better when most everyone prospers.

I began as a tradesman,, (HVAC and electrical)  then became an
engineer and consultant,  I lost my trade skills
from disuse and with it my engineering suffered,... regainng my well
polished trade skills took 10 years,, it was not easy
now I do a mix deliberately  and Im damn glad of it,,  as engineering
as moved to india my trade skills are saving my
bacon at age 68 no less.    I do about half engineering now and half
trades...

        That is great.  I am a blacksmith, cabinet maker, ceramist, and several
other sorts.  These things do not just interest me - I see, feel, and
*know* the value they represent.  I can and do raise my own food -
veggies, fruits, chickens, goats, ducks, geese, etc.  May even get a cow
or two one of these days.

from scratch it might as well have been impossible.... I dont see the
non productive types coming  up to
viability when times get tough,.. its not easy,,, a man could starve
to death trying,

        Maybe.  But methinks that when death is getting ready to do his thing
with one's backside, some will undoubtedly pop their heads out of that
dark place and make a most miraculous seeming recovery into the world of
real things.  The rest will die, uncomprehendingly.  It is a sad thing
perhaps, but not so sad that I would waste tears on them.  We all make
our choices.  If mine lead to my demise, that is tough for me.  The same
goes for one and all.

you are on target,..this is the decay and collapse pattern seen all
through history.
its a 5 generation cycle

        So it would seem.  Time will tell, ultimately.  It is my hope that
things stay together long enough for me to get my finances together on
this new job in FL so I can build what I need and prepare ground for
more serious food production.

read dr ravi batra's   'the coming collapse (or depression) 1990'
you will be glad you did... it is analysis of Kondratiev'studys on the
topic.   1930's

        Thanks,  I will check it out.

- Show quoted text -

On Nov 2, 4:28 pm, Demon Buddha <Nob... at (no spam) no.where> wrote:
phil scott wrot

as this collapse goes ballistic, there will be a trend to the return
of comon sense, it will be that or starvation...
If this thing gets serious, and up until now it has been just
significantly inconvenient for most, the likelihood is that many will
die. By "serious" I mean non-trivial food shortages. When I was
teaching in Harlem and the South Bronx I used to ask my students where
things like meat came from. They would answer with the sincere offer of
"the store" or some equivalent. That was 84-86. The ignorance has
gotten significantly worse since those days.

indeed and these look so normal, even competent otherwise, its that
way
as high as you go in business and industry... and in education.

Id like to know, what happens when you tell the kid meat comes from
living
animals then show them cows and carcases,,, etc, a simple fix but you
dont see it happening,,, whats up with that?

do they stick you with incompent texts or as in chemistry leave out
atomic
theory and whatever

How about how to raise food? Carpentry? Blacksmithing? Marksmanship?
Basic living skills should be taught to everyone because all this
technological wizardry by which we hang our lives can be gone in short
time.




yes,insight, capability,productive skills sets and work ethic that
took decades to build die **instantly...

mostly the potential replacements have had an easy life. no
motivation to gain valuable skills, or even appreciate them,.. these
become
managers in too many cases because their focus has been socially, with
no regard for function,,,but socially these become dominant..and fire
the technical talent. or seek to drive the pay rates down.... so
these move on...then the culture collapses

we are at that threshold, there is no support now or historically for
a reversal,,

nations are living organisms they die,,, and all on schedule..

exceptions were the nomad nations with no written language or money,
just barter,,, those last a thousand years or more,,, there is not
much to pervert,,, each person is competent or dies off because he
cant hunt or cope, so the group stays strong

with money the incompetent can be supported... supporting incompetence
is fatal etc the money is perverted

When that happens, those who don't know squat better have
something to offer those who can take care of themselves. Better yet
that they themselves learn those same basics. But no, that's all passé.
Hopefully we will never find out whether I am on target or full of it.
Life is so much better when most everyone prospers.

I began as a tradesman,, (HVAC and electrical) then became an
engineer and consultant, I lost my trade skills
from disuse and with it my engineering suffered,... regainng my well
polished trade skills took 10 years,, it was not easy
now I do a mix deliberately and Im damn glad of it,, as engineering
as moved to india my trade skills are saving my
bacon at age 68 no less. I do about half engineering now and half
trades...

from scratch it might as well have been impossible.... I dont see the
non productive types coming up to
viability when times get tough,.. its not easy,,, a man could starve
to death trying,

you are on target,..this is the decay and collapse pattern seen all
through history.
its a 5 generation cycle

read dr ravi batra's 'the coming collapse (or depression) 1990'
you will be glad you did... it is analysis of Kondratiev'studys on the
topic. 1930's

On Nov 2, 4:52 pm, Demon Buddha <Nob... at (no spam) no.where> wrote:
phil scott wrote:
nice quote, thanks... it is true, today we have bogus management
theory based on
a complete lack of understanding or the rest of life.
Could you give a few examples of such bogus theories? I am curious
what they may be and why you think that way about them. When I did my
MBA the management theories I learned strongly reinforced my
experience-based knowledge from 25 years of being in business.

One thing that I would warn people against is taking what they get from
the media too much to heart. Most business managers I have known and
worked with, which by now numbers over 1000 (nature of my business) are
very ethical, honest, smart, and capable people. The media sell misery
and drama. That is what gets the ad dollars. Typical news, IMO,
represents a highly concentrated and therefore highly distorted picture
of realities such as the general demeanor of businessmen. How often do
they do stories on those who run their companies efficiently while
providing value to customers and good environments for employees? Not
that often, and one must also consider the common cognitive "habit", as
it were, of people to rapidly forget good news while retaining the bad.
All of this serves to build mental castles of ugly gray stone wherein
the actors are all Eville(tm) and nasty. As this applies to business,
it is generally very misleading.

To be sure, there are bad actors out there. It also appears to me that
it requires just a few to wreak great harm on the rest, much as just a
few small, well placed charges can take down an office building in
seconds whereas erecting it may have taken years. Entropy is a most
interesting phenomenon.

One of my clients, is not educated

but his construction business prospers as others around here went from
700 staff to zero.
But this does not impeach a formal business education. Just prior to
graduation, the CEO of some huge company came to us and set us straight
about what our training represented. He was quick to point out that the
only thing it really signifies is that we had been initiated into a
brotherhood of sorts and that we possessed certain knowledge that most
others do not - and that was it. It didn't make us smarter than anyone
else - it didn't entitle us to anything special. It only alerts hiring
managers of things we should know. It is a foot in a door. The rest is
up to us - we must prove ourselves through action just as anyone else
must. I think that was a pretty good way of presenting reality to the
class.

I, too, have known people who not only had some natural knack for
business, they acted upon it and through that combination of innate
ability, experience, action, and attitude, they too prospered where
others may have failed.



I wont spill his secrets here, but they are sophisticated comon
sense..he beats the pants off of his competition.
I have managed projects where I was directly responsible for hundreds
of millions of someone else's money. That is a lot of responsibility.
My management style has always worked well for me and those around me,
and there is a simple "secret" to it that most people simply don't get:
treat people well and they will march into the gates of hell for you
without you even having to ask. I have always measured my success in
terms of the success of those around me. If my team succeeds, it means
I did my job well. If they fail, chances are that it is my fault.
There is much about management and leadership that Johnny Q. has no clue
about. It isn't esoteric or complex, yet most just are incapable of
practicing it - or unwilling. We could write books on this, and many
have. One way of looking at it is the good old Golden Rule. Always ask
yourself how would you like to be treated by a manager in this situation
or that. Unless you are somehow organically damaged, chances are the
answer will never be "like shit" or "like a commodity".

you would succeed in cases where I would not...(80% of the cases) I
succeed in cases that had crashed and few others could fix them.. that
takes a delicate mix of carnage and respect for the talent
available,,, most dont have the technical or physics skills required
or the background for me that was flat tracking,,,(half mile dirt
ovals)

the two styles and peronalities are incompatible... both are
winners, you would not respect my style at all, and Id consider
yours an evasion of the real issues.... but in fact, imo,, there is a
time and place for each,,,,I will not even take a straight management
project,,, the last one, the CEO an impressive man with a killer wife
from Brazil''' I told him that Id be damaging to his best interests as
he was in the business of compromise .. and he had to be,,,, I only
get involved if it gets non functional

phil scott wrote:
'viable' business strategy in the hands of the morally depraved
produces what we see today,   it is self
decimating

        Completely agree, but let us not forget that any tool may be abused.
The key to all action lies in the hearts of men.  When those are rotten
and the environment supports the decay, the greater body suffers.
Unless we, the greater body, stand vigilantly against the thieves and
brutes, we are all toast at their hands, initially, and that of the
inevitable waterfall effects that result when thresholds are crossed.

        I seriously wonder whether those at the top are aware that they murder
themselves along with their hosts.  Hubris has that quality of blinding
those awash in its waters.

'viable' business strategy in the hands of the morally depraved
produces what we see today, it is self
decimating

I seriously wonder whether those at the top are aware that they murder
themselves along with their hosts. Hubris has that quality of blinding
those awash in its waters.

these are 100% unaware of the real damage they do, in fact most seem
to consider the damage
they do a good thing, proof of their prowess etc...even when its
completely corrupt..and they
know its corrupt...

Ive had many many people say to me 'Why do you put your career at
risk this way...whats in it for YOU'... completely unable
to fathom that anyone would have any other concern than for their own
short term interests... I even got that statement from a
congressman when I was testifying before their committee (on nuclear
weapons plant issues).. and they ask this increadulously.
completely unable even fathom that a person would do the right thing.

That has been my experrience at least.. diverse industries and govt
last 30 years on projects in dozens of states.
I don't see exceptions... this is a cultural mess... educated into our
kids these days it seems.... dumbed down so that
the engineering / viability issues are not even seen by them...so that
its not even possible for these to make
an ethical decision.

.... just below the top layer are middle management sychophant
types... also clueless but not short of the power to
ruin others or a project

...who do see corruption most usuallly, some clearly, some in a cloud
of confusion,
but opt to keep quiet in the face of it in order to keep their
jobs... those will oppose
corrective measures in most cases.

These value humorous defelection, distraction, focus on peripheral
issues, false socialization,
ball scores, etc in an attempt to be part of the acceptable group...
this insures
thier jobs....and their families income. Hard to fault in that
context . But it is a fatal compromise.

Maybe one person in several hundred has the gonads to swim against
that tide to save a project. .. do I advise it?
not actually, one pays a heavy prices... in the context of a persons
life and family it can easily be too high
a price.

I see the current situation as having exceeded critical mass...
historically with no exceptions in the last few thousand years, it
decimates its host nation.

***
actual exceptions are few... Ive met a few people at the top levels
in business and govt who are exceptions... and have
had some degree of influence, amid the compromises... those have all
been a lot brigher than myself... a 0.01%
minority. Insufficent to change the larger tide.

The most viable exceptions Ive seen, and not so uncomon at all.... are
the most talented tradesmen types..
working with the tools keeps a man fit and sharp... and ethically
sharp.

These people are self correcting out of necessity.. its not possible
to cut a pipe too short then lie or spin your way out of it...in other
occupations lying seems to be the acceptable norm... lying corrupts
its host...even ruins their own health, and that of those around
them...who consider such gross debilitations natural.

The person who lies finds reason for his lies..that programming sends
him south across the larger spectrum...generates an unfathomable world
of spin and confusion, the resulting stress ruins the person...and its
contageous to his kiddies, family and the rest of the company.

This has driven some of the nations best and brightest to the
sidelines, offshore, or into protective cocoons. No way to fund govt
from such a base. That is why one can do the math on state, local
and federal govt's budgets and notice that they are all 50% or so in
the red... that percentage documents the actual shortfall in their tax
revenues.... with these unable to raise taxes as it was over taxation
that drove this mess into the tank into the first place...now it IS in
the tank...no way to tax those who are not earning enough to operate.

That has been the result of this range of cultural issues. Those
never reverse. Not in all of recorded history, as with any plant or
animal the aging and final stages do not reverse... the organism must
die and reboot from its seed. The USA is in that mode.

***
When one considers what life is actually about...it may not about
dying with a paid off home... it may be about living long enough to
evolve and learn something, pass what you can of that on...avoiding
starvation the meantime.

If that is an accurate assessment, then the personal sacrifice is
worth it in spaces...

the benefits are in ones own insight, understanding, capability, and
gift of capability to others....

and ones own vitality and persona... are worth any and all
sacrific.. But it is not smart at
all from a material perspective...with some minor exceptions.
(decent behavior as a tradesman
will keep you working and prosperous... the oposite applies though as
an engineer or corp
cog.)

Phil scott

phil scott wrote:

I seriously wonder whether those at the top are aware that they
murder
themselves along with their hosts. Hubris has that quality of blinding
those awash in its waters.

these are 100% unaware of the real damage they do, in fact most seem
to consider the damage
they do a good thing, proof of their prowess etc...even when its
completely corrupt..and they
know its corrupt...

I'm thinking this may be too pat. I cannot help but suspect that the
real inner core of political manipulation are a well disciplined, learned,
trained, and CAUSE ORIENTED group. It is the cause orientation that I wonder
about.

Back when I was about 20, a conversation with my father sparked an
idea in my head. I had wondered, and still do at times, whether at some time
long ago, a well educated and wealthy man

perhaps trained in the sciences, looked out from his study atop the tower of
his residence and pondered the line of human development from antiquity to
his time and saw the trends of growing populations, ever greater "moral
decay", technological advance, and environmental stress. I then mused that
he had the creative imagination to extrapolate where it was all heading.
Being who he was, he also had his religious legacy to slot those thoughts
into a context, a desire.

Imagine this man deciding that the reclamation of Eden was not only
desirable, but possible.

and influential men, he began a movement with the stated goal in mind. He
and his cadre realized that enormous power would be required and that the
greatest power in the world lay embodied in money. They establish a
foundation of finance, enabling them to branch into political influence, then
technological development, and so on.

The ultimate goal - to be so technologically endowed that the vast
and overwhelming majority of the human mob would become wholly extraneous.

Next step at that point - wipe them out, eliminate all dissenting opinions
and as a group begin the arduous task of restoring paradise.

In all this, a centrally important factor is not what is actually
true, but what people believe is true.

the difference in the world.

Anyhow, I have at times wondered is such a scenario may be something
like the truth, past and current.

Ive had many many people say to me 'Why do you put your career at
risk this way...whats in it for YOU'... completely unable
to fathom that anyone would have any other concern than for their own
short term interests... I even got that statement from a
congressman when I was testifying before their committee (on nuclear
weapons plant issues).. and they ask this increadulously.
completely unable even fathom that a person would do the right thing.

It is something to behold, is it not? In this respect, I have never
been able to relate to the fear that people seem to live with on a seemingly
perpetual basis.

OTOH, they never get into trouble, whereas I do.

That has been my experrience at least.. diverse industries and govt
last 30 years on projects in dozens of states.
I don't see exceptions... this is a cultural mess... educated into our
kids these days it seems.... dumbed down so that
the engineering / viability issues are not even seen by them...so that
its not even possible for these to make
an ethical decision.

Most of what passes for engineering these days is kind of lame. All
this dependence on computers is, IMO, insanely ridiculous. The engineers I
grew up around - jesus... what intellects they were, and mechanics as well.
They knew how to build the things they designed, and all with nothing more
than a drawing board, a slide rule, and maybe Mark's Handbook. The
machinists, T&D men, and instrument makers whose hey day was the 30s and 40s
- those men knew what the hell they were doing. Most of these kids today
don't know shit. They are plenty intelligent and most mean well, but the
fact is they were never taught how to do anything REAL. Oh look, I can CAD
up a part and feed it to the CNC... big fucking deal. How about putting
yourself in front of a manual machine and making the part yourself? Didn't
think so. The staggering wealth of knowledge that was once America's is all
but gone - tossed away in favor of machines that do all the work while the
operator stands by and pees in his shorts from boredom.

.... just below the top layer are middle management sychophant
types... also clueless but not short of the power to
ruin others or a project

When I was in Vancouver, a manager from Deloitte got in my face in
front of MY people and became very unprofessional with me. I told him
straight up and in front of my boys that if he ever dared speak to me in that
tone and manner again, I would pass him through the window directly behind
him and that there would be absolutely nothing he would be able to do to stop
me. He never gave me shit again,

one week prior to the normal lapse of my contract.

the sort of weasel to which you refer. I do not suffer them well.

...who do see corruption most usuallly, some clearly, some in a cloud
of confusion,
but opt to keep quiet in the face of it in order to keep their
jobs... those will oppose
corrective measures in most cases.

I have found that one must know when to speak and when to hold his
yap.

am not in full possession of the business considerations that drive a
client's decision making. Therefore, when I see something I suspect may be
fucked, I alert the client to it and let them make the choice of whether to
act on my recommendations, take a different course of action, or do nothing.
I am there to please them. I hold a fiduciary responsibility to alert them
to potential problems, but I am not there to save them when they have no
interest in being saved. I have helped several clients avoid major
catastrophes. Some have declined to heed my alerts - some of those went on
about things and some went out of business. Those are the breaks.

These value humorous defelection, distraction, focus on peripheral
issues, false socialization,
ball scores, etc in an attempt to be part of the acceptable group...
this insures
thier jobs....and their families income. Hard to fault in that
context . But it is a fatal compromise.

Hand waving. The new American way.

Maybe one person in several hundred has the gonads to swim against
that tide to save a project. .. do I advise it?
not actually, one pays a heavy prices... in the context of a persons
life and family it can easily be too high
a price.

When at Bell, I got my balls handed to me on more occasions than I
can count. I was like that and the only thing I ever accomplished was to get
a lot of people pissed off with me. That is one reason I went into the
consulting biz - no emotional or ethical investments in the client's
outcomes. If they insist on fucking themselves, so be it, just as long as
the checks keep coming. Can't save those who don't want it.

I see the current situation as having exceeded critical mass...
historically with no exceptions in the last few thousand years, it
decimates its host nation.

We are pretty well decimated. Recovery is not likely, at least not
in my lifetime. A good hard crash is what this nation needs. Millions, many
of them, need to die.

just cannot sustain a culture of self-absorbed sycophantic yuppie yes-men who
have no skills beyond expert use of the knee pads and the titanium armored
ass shield.

occupations lying seems to be the acceptable norm... lying corrupts
its host...even ruins their own health, and that of those around
them...who consider such gross debilitations natural.

The software biz is the worst for this. Nothing is real

almost every sector one can bullshit his way out of gross incompetence.

There was once place I worked, out in the Arizona desert, where this was not
the case. We made and tested very scary things that will perhaps one day
kill many people and terrorize the rest. In that place, incompetence and
lies were met with immediate dismissal. The ship was run more tightly than a
vestal virgin with ironclad security and engineering know-how that was second
to none anywhere on the planet. The technology was fascinating, but as I
said, scary as fucking hell and will probably be put to uses that nobody
wants to think about too much.

The person who lies finds reason for his lies..that programming sends
him south across the larger spectrum...generates an unfathomable world
of spin and confusion, the resulting stress ruins the person...and its
contageous to his kiddies, family and the rest of the company.

That is because it is a disease. A disease of CHOICE. Eminently
avoidable, yet so few choose to do so. Humans.


This has driven some of the nations best and brightest to the
sidelines, offshore, or into protective cocoons. No way to fund govt
from such a base. That is why one can do the math on state, local
and federal govt's budgets and notice that they are all 50% or so in
the red... that percentage documents the actual shortfall in their tax
revenues.... with these unable to raise taxes as it was over taxation
that drove this mess into the tank into the first place...now it IS in
the tank...no way to tax those who are not earning enough to operate.

We are doomed.

for our grandparents' generation. Perhaps it is just as well. The thought
of retiring and waiting for senility and eventually death to come for us in
thin slices is perhaps the only thing that has ever really scared me.

That has been the result of this range of cultural issues. Those
never reverse. Not in all of recorded history, as with any plant or
animal the aging and final stages do not reverse... the organism must
die and reboot from its seed. The USA is in that mode.

So it appears. Here's an exercise in futility for you:

http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com


***
When one considers what life is actually about...it may not about
dying with a paid off home... it may be about living long enough to
evolve and learn something, pass what you can of that on...avoiding
starvation the meantime.

The older I get, the less I know.

the outcome when they were 20?

If that is an accurate assessment, then the personal sacrifice is
worth it in spaces...

the benefits are in ones own insight, understanding, capability, and
gift of capability to others....

One takes small miracles and blessings as they come and is thankful
for them. So much for the haughtier aspects of the American dream.