On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 04:55:05 +0100 (BST), Free Tibet
freetibet at (no spam) nym.mixmin.net> wrote:

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On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:02:01 -0700, Mack A. Damia <mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.c=
om
wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 10:36:51 -0700 (PDT), "abianchen at (no spam) my-deja.com"
abianchen at (no spam) my-deja.com> wrote:

Once again what? Chinese civil war ended in 1949 but Mao was restless
and brought senseless and brutal political movements like Great Leap
Forward that starved 9 million Chinese people to death in 1959 alone,
then, Cultural Revolution... students were against teachers, children
were against parents... What kind of society is that? Mao was a
MONSTER!!!

In 1979, DXP and his CCP simply abandoned Maoism and adopted market
economy. Finally China had peace and started to make progress. What a
waste for China for first 30 years!

In Taiwan, we did not have those crazy political movements, today, my
Taiwan has GDP per capita 5 times higher than China, we have invested
over USD 100 billion in China. We don=92t spit. In China, people spit
everywhere. Now mainland Chinese tourists visited Taiwan and admired
us, they said this is what future China should be.

Those are all facts!!!

More Facts.

He is regarded as one of the most important figures in modern world
history.

He was named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential
people of the 20th century.

Along with Adolf Hitler, Ayatullah Khomeini, and Lenin.=20

Therefore..........?

On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 08:33:53 -0700, Mack A. Damia <mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.com
wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 15:20:05 +0200 (CEST), "Anonymous Remailer
(austria)" <mixmaster at (no spam) remailer.privacy.at> wrote:


On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 08:50:26 -0300, Fred Williams <fred at (no spam) frewilliams.FFFfca
wrote:

Nomen Nescio wrote:

On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 20:03:19 -0700, Mack A. Damia <mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.c=
om
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 08:14:24 -0400, E. Barry Bruyea
termlimits at (no spam) democracy.com> wrote:

On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 21:37:44 -0700 (PDT), "fyfpoon at (no spam) gmail.com"
fyfpoon at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On 10=D4=C28=C8=D5, =C9=CF=CE=E71=CA=B159=B7=D6, Dank 110100100 <dank.=
. at (no spam) rocketmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:54 pm, Mack A. Damia <mybaconbu... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:

It's called "realism". The decison was made not to meet with the =
Lama
until *after* Obama visits the Chinese leadership in November beca=
use
of delicate negotiations concerning crucial foreign policy, econom=
ic
and environmental goals that the Lama has absolutely nothing to do
with.

But Barack Obama was elected by U.S. leftists who support the Dalai
Lama, not the Chinese. Obama represents the American people, not th=
e
Chinese leadership.

Look around. Religion is dying.

I always wondered why the left is so enamored of a religious leader
such as the Dalai Lama, the same left that would pelt the Pope with
rotten eggs if given a chance. But while I do not recognize the
authority of an unelected religious leader, the Dalai Lama still has
more authority than the unelected puppet government installed by
Communist China.

I participated in the Olympic Torch protest in San Francisco last
year, and everyone kept assuming that I was there to support the
Tibetan independence movement, but I was just there to protest
communist tyranny - particularly the Tiananmen Square massacre.

"San Francisco Welcomes Political Protesters. Beijing Kills Them."

If you want to protest the T Square suppression, why don't you protest
against Kent State killing of students as well?

To support Tibet independence means more blood shed harvested by a few
international politicians.


Was the tragedy at Kent State ordered by the U.S. government?
Were the demonstrators imprisoned?
Did the U.S. attempt to cover up the killings?
Did the Chinese launch an investigation into the T Square reaction to
the demonstrators?

I think you better come up with a more germane comparison.

Not really.

Agents of the U.S. government shot and killed four students who were
protesting a war. That's all we need to know in the context of this
discussion, which centered on the United States' intolerance of
demonstrators at that time.

It reveals attitudes and itchy fingers.

OK! Let's go through the tens of millions that Mao killed.

Stereo-typical anti-Maoist propaganda. You can't add up all the deaths
that occurred in that area of the world and lay them at the feet of Mao.
There was a revolution and people were going to die. Many said that they
would rather die than go on living as slaves. Look at how far he brought
China in such a short time. The previous powers would not yield their
control lightly. Some of those deaths would be at their feet too, if not
all.

What??? The cultural revolution and the great leap forward led to the deaths of
millions of people. It's a fact. Purge after purge killed millions. Take off
your rose-colored glasses. Or at least give back the 50 cents.

Most revolutions are nasty pieces of work. Nobody denies that many
died - but that can be said for most,if not all violent revolutions -
including the War of Independence.

What did the Egyptians do to the Jews? Violent revolutions have been
going on for thousands of years, so it's not cricket to single out
*one* as a dreadful example.

Do you know the truth about the Boston Tea Party?

There was plenty of violence in connection with our involvement in
Vietnam; American history is repleat with violence in the name of
"freedom".

Guys such as Stalin and Mao realized that human nature doesn't change,
and the only way to insure success for their causes was to eliminate
the competition.

I really find no fault in that considering the larger picture.

And we're comparing all this with Kent State. Right.

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On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:02:01 -0700, Mack A. Damia <mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.c=
om
wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 10:36:51 -0700 (PDT), "abianchen at (no spam) my-deja.com"
abianchen at (no spam) my-deja.com> wrote:

Once again what? Chinese civil war ended in 1949 but Mao was restless
and brought senseless and brutal political movements like Great Leap
Forward that starved 9 million Chinese people to death in 1959 alone,
then, Cultural Revolution... students were against teachers, children
were against parents... What kind of society is that? Mao was a
MONSTER!!!

In 1979, DXP and his CCP simply abandoned Maoism and adopted market
economy. Finally China had peace and started to make progress. What a
waste for China for first 30 years!

In Taiwan, we did not have those crazy political movements, today, my
Taiwan has GDP per capita 5 times higher than China, we have invested
over USD 100 billion in China. We don=92t spit. In China, people spit
everywhere. Now mainland Chinese tourists visited Taiwan and admired
us, they said this is what future China should be.

Those are all facts!!!

More Facts.

He is regarded as one of the most important figures in modern world
history.

He was named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential
people of the 20th century.

Along with Adolf Hitler, Ayatullah Khomeini, and Lenin.=20

On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:44:25 -0700, Mack A. Damia <mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.com
wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 09:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Anti-DabianchenVirus
wusong3 at (no spam) rocketmail.com> wrote:

The poster going with the IDs "abianchen" and "report2009" never went
to college.

Proof: http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/995a71070728ba0c?hl=en

There is nothing worse than abject ignorance, and in today's world,
there is no excuse for it. I get sick, tired and utterly fed up with
unenlightened opinions gleaned from others. So-called "experts" on
Usenet who know the "truth". I could vomit at times.

Good idea!

I'm a retired professor of political science, and I don't pretend to
know everything. My area of emphasis was political socialization, and
it appears that most folks get there political views from their
parents.

I opposed mine. They were college graduates.

If parents are closed-minded rednecks, you can just about bet with
assurance that their children will turn out the same way.

Mine have rebelled. Now working for IBM.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Cheers!

What about nuts?

Free Tibet wrote:

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=20
On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:57:52 -0700, Mack A. Damia
mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
=20
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 04:55:05 +0100 (BST), Free Tibet
freetibet at (no spam) nym.mixmin.net> wrote:

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On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:02:01 -0700, Mack A. Damia
mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.c=3D om
wrote:

More Facts.

He is regarded as one of the most important figures in modern world
history.

He was named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential
people of the 20th century.

Along with Adolf Hitler, Ayatullah Khomeini, and Lenin.=3D20

Therefore..........?
=20
Um.. influentual and important don't mean Mao was 'good', sir?
=20

Good can be a relative term. =20

Mao was better then what the Chinese had=20
before. I wouldn't want to follow his example today. The world has cha=
nged=20
and there are peaceful ways to bring about positive changes. =20

Note that=20
peaceful doesn't mean less radical. The solution lies in economics rath=
er=20
than with guns and bombs.

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 09:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Anti-DabianchenVirus
wusong3 at (no spam) rocketmail.com> wrote:

The poster going with the IDs "abianchen" and "report2009" never went
to college.

Proof:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/995a71070728ba0c?hl=en

There is nothing worse than abject ignorance, and in today's world,
there is no excuse for it. I get sick, tired and utterly fed up with
unenlightened opinions gleaned from others. So-called "experts" on
Usenet who know the "truth". I could vomit at times.

I'm a retired professor of political science, and I don't pretend to
know everything. My area of emphasis was political socialization, and
it appears that most folks get there political views from their
parents.

If parents are closed-minded rednecks, you can just about bet with
assurance that their children will turn out the same way.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Cheers!

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On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:57:52 -0700, Mack A. Damia
mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 04:55:05 +0100 (BST), Free Tibet
freetibet at (no spam) nym.mixmin.net> wrote:

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On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:02:01 -0700, Mack A. Damia
mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.c= om
wrote:

More Facts.

He is regarded as one of the most important figures in modern world
history.

He was named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential
people of the 20th century.

Along with Adolf Hitler, Ayatullah Khomeini, and Lenin.=20

Therefore..........?

Um.. influentual and important don't mean Mao was 'good', sir?

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:33:38 +0100 (BST), Free Tibet





freeti... at (no spam) nym.mixmin.net> wrote:
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On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:02:11 -0300, Fred Williams <f... at (no spam) frewilliams.FFFfc> >a
wrote:

Free Tibet wrote:

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=20
On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:57:52 -0700, Mack A. Damia
mybaconbu... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
=20
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 04:55:05 +0100 (BST), Free Tibet
freeti... at (no spam) nym.mixmin.net> wrote:

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On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:02:01 -0700, Mack A. Damia
mybaconbu... at (no spam) hotmail.c=3D om
wrote:

More Facts.

He is regarded as one of the most important figures in modern world
history.

He was named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential
people of the 20th century.

Along with Adolf Hitler, Ayatullah Khomeini, and Lenin.=3D20

Therefore..........?
=20
Um.. influentual and important don't mean Mao was 'good', sir?
=20

       Good can be a relative term. =20

That's why I had 'good' in quotes, sir.=20

What's with all the numbers asnd codes?  Is this Google posting?

It's not a matter of good versus bad.  Was Hitler a bad man?  Or was
he a man who did bad things?  He was responsible for bringing
stability to Germany following WW1 and was instrumental in his support
of the People's car (Volkswagon).  I think he developed Germany's
infrastructure, as well.

He let his ego get the better of him as many leaders do.

But it's not an important point.  What is important is that he, along
with Mao and others, was one of the most influential people of the
20th Century whether you like it or not.

Mao effectively transformed China from an agrarian society to an
industrial giant - desite his brutal methods, which must be condemned.

It's important to look at the whole picture, not just parts and
corners.
--
mad- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

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On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:02:11 -0300, Fred Williams <fred at (no spam) frewilliams.FFFfc=
a
wrote:

Free Tibet wrote:

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=20
On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:57:52 -0700, Mack A. Damia
mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
=20
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 04:55:05 +0100 (BST), Free Tibet
freetibet at (no spam) nym.mixmin.net> wrote:

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Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:02:01 -0700, Mack A. Damia
mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.c=3D om
wrote:

More Facts.

He is regarded as one of the most important figures in modern world
history.

He was named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential
people of the 20th century.

Along with Adolf Hitler, Ayatullah Khomeini, and Lenin.=3D20

Therefore..........?
=20
Um.. influentual and important don't mean Mao was 'good', sir?
=20

Good can be a relative term. =20

That's why I had 'good' in quotes, sir.=20

Mao was better then what the Chinese had=20
before. I wouldn't want to follow his example today. The world has cha=
nged=20
and there are peaceful ways to bring about positive changes. =20

The discussion wasn't whether Mao was better than those he replaced, it w=
as the
number of his own people that he killed to make their lives 'better' whil=
e not
forgetting the Tibetan people he subjugated, terrorized, imprisoned, tort=
ured
and killed.

Those poor 'deluded' people who were so 'unhappy' before he
'liberated' them. Yes, sir. Positive changes.

Look at them now, sir. Every day Mao's followers, whether they admit they=
are or
not, are continuing to enact this reign of terror upon the Tibetan people=

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On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:02:11 -0300, Fred Williams <fred at (no spam) frewilliams.FFFfc=
a
wrote:

Free Tibet wrote:

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=20
On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:57:52 -0700, Mack A. Damia
mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
=20
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 04:55:05 +0100 (BST), Free Tibet
freetibet at (no spam) nym.mixmin.net> wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:02:01 -0700, Mack A. Damia
mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.c=3D om
wrote:

More Facts.

He is regarded as one of the most important figures in modern world
history.

He was named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential
people of the 20th century.

Along with Adolf Hitler, Ayatullah Khomeini, and Lenin.=3D20

Therefore..........?
=20
Um.. influentual and important don't mean Mao was 'good', sir?
=20

Good can be a relative term. =20

That's why I had 'good' in quotes, sir.=20

Mack A. Damia wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 09:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Anti-DabianchenVirus
wusong3 at (no spam) rocketmail.com> wrote:

The poster going with the IDs "abianchen" and "report2009" never went
to college.

Proof:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/995a71070728ba0c?hl=en

There is nothing worse than abject ignorance, and in today's world,
there is no excuse for it. I get sick, tired and utterly fed up with
unenlightened opinions gleaned from others. So-called "experts" on
Usenet who know the "truth". I could vomit at times.

I'm a retired professor of political science, and I don't pretend to
know everything. My area of emphasis was political socialization, and
it appears that most folks get there political views from their
parents.

If parents are closed-minded rednecks, you can just about bet with
assurance that their children will turn out the same way.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Cheers!

That's true, but it is possible to change and education helps. It's called
"finding yourself" when you look to what your own value are and get away
from those of your parents. It happened for me when I was 36 years old and
it changed my life.

Free Tibet wrote:
Um.. influentual and important don't mean Mao was 'good', sir?

  Good can be a relative term.  Mao was better then what the
Chinese had before.

On Oct 10, 7:02 am, Fred Williams <f... at (no spam) frewilliams.FFFfca> wrote:
Free Tibet wrote:
Um.. influentual and important don't mean Mao was 'good', sir?

  Good can be a relative term.  Mao was better then what the
Chinese had before.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Day and night the telescreens bruised your ears with statistics
proving that people today had more food, more clothes, better houses,
better recreations -- that they lived longer, worked shorter hours,
were bigger, healthier, stronger, happier, more intelligent, better
educated, than the people of fifty years ago. Not a word of it could
ever be proved or disproved. The Party claimed, for example, that
today 40 per cent of adult proles were literate: before the
Revolution, it was said, the number had only been 15 per cent. The
Party claimed that the infant mortality rate was now only 160 per
thousand, whereas before the Revolution it had been 300 -- and so it
went on. It was like a single equation with two unknowns. It might
very well be that literally every word in the history books, even the
things that one accepted without question, was pure fantasy. For all
he knew there might never have been any such law as the jus primae
noctis, or any such creature as a capitalist, or any such garment as a
top hat. Everything faded into mist. The past was erased, the
erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth."
-- 1984
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Free Tibet wrote:

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On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:02:11 -0300, Fred Williams <fred at (no spam) frewilliams.FFFfc=
a
wrote:

Free Tibet wrote:

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=20
On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:57:52 -0700, Mack A. Damia
mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
=20
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 04:55:05 +0100 (BST), Free Tibet
freetibet at (no spam) nym.mixmin.net> wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:02:01 -0700, Mack A. Damia
mybaconbutty at (no spam) hotmail.c=3D om
wrote:

More Facts.

He is regarded as one of the most important figures in modern world
history.

He was named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential
people of the 20th century.

Along with Adolf Hitler, Ayatullah Khomeini, and Lenin.=3D20

Therefore..........?
=20
Um.. influentual and important don't mean Mao was 'good', sir?
=20

Good can be a relative term. =20

That's why I had 'good' in quotes, sir.=20

Mao was better then what the Chinese had=20
before. I wouldn't want to follow his example today. The world has cha=
nged=20
and there are peaceful ways to bring about positive changes. =20

The discussion wasn't whether Mao was better than those he replaced, it w=
as the
number of his own people that he killed to make their lives 'better' whil=
e not
forgetting the Tibetan people he subjugated, terrorized, imprisoned, tort=
ured
and killed.

Do we really have *any* reliable information on that? I haven't seen it.

Those poor 'deluded' people who were so 'unhappy' before he
'liberated' them. Yes, sir. Positive changes.

There sure was. Read the history. The Chinese revolution created the most
classless society that has ever existed on the face of the Earth, (for a
large nation anyway).

Look at them now, sir. Every day Mao's followers, whether they admit they=
are or
not, are continuing to enact this reign of terror upon the Tibetan people=

I don't think Mao would be very pleased with what they are doing now. The
dream has been cast aside and Washington's influence is starting to control
decisions in Peiping. *That* is the sad part.