Anyone ? We are sitting in a circle with 30 persons in your
home town, say: what is the very next thing we do after the
soup is eaten. Stay glued to the chairs ? That is one idea
... any other ideas ? Any sort of larger strategy and/or end
goal that can be described ?

What do you want to do ? (I predict: total silence as usual,
nobody really wants to even debate what to do, right ?)

On Jul 16, 4:49 am, "J.H.Boersema" <jo... at (no spam) xs4all.nl> wrote:
Anyone ? We are sitting in a circle with 30 persons in your
home town, say: what is the very next thing we do after the
soup is eaten. Stay glued to the chairs ? That is one idea
... any other ideas ? Any sort of larger strategy and/or end
goal that can be described ?

Individuals have a multitude of goals and there are a multitude of
goals for society.

Everybody needs to take care of their own needs before they can be
effective in helping society advance.

What do you want to do ? (I predict: total silence as usual,
nobody really wants to even debate what to do, right ?)

The actions that will help society advance need to be identified and
those actions need to be sold to others.

The rise in the unemployment rate in the US has stifled economic
progress, but no one has shown how socialism can be used to get people
working again in productive jobs.

On Jul 16, 4:49 am, "J.H.Boersema" <jo... at (no spam) xs4all.nl> wrote:
Anyone ? We are sitting in a circle with 30 persons in your
home town, say: what is the very next thing we do after the
soup is eaten. Stay glued to the chairs ? That is one idea
... any other ideas ? Any sort of larger strategy and/or end
goal that can be described ?

Individuals have a multitude of goals and there are a multitude of
goals for society.

Everybody needs to take care of their own needs before they can be
effective in helping society advance.

What do you want to do ? (I predict: total silence as usual,
nobody really wants to even debate what to do, right ?)

The actions that will help society advance need to be identified and
those actions need to be sold to others.

The rise in the unemployment rate in the US has stifled economic
progress, but no one has shown how socialism can be used to get people
working again in productive jobs.

From the way you wrote it I assume that you have certain ideas about
"socialism," and from those ideas I conclude you are an American
or maybe Brittish ? You are using the word "socialism" as a byword
for the total plan economy, which is what the Marxists have been
pushing for, and which is something that in my opinion can never work.

On Jul 17, 2:04=A0am, "J.H.Boersema" <jo... at (no spam) xs4all.nl> wrote:
From the way you wrote it I assume that you have certain ideas about
"socialism," and from those ideas I conclude you are an American
or maybe Brittish ? You are using the word "socialism" as a byword
for the total plan economy, which is what the Marxists have been
pushing for, and which is something that in my opinion can never work.

I don't consider that socialism requires any more planning than a
capitalist economy requires.

A farmer needs to plant seeds in the spring which requires planning.

A corporation needs to make plans to build a power plant or silicon
foundry.

Planning can be done wrong by being inflexible.

Clearly you have a certain idea about what "socialism" is.
Do you care to describe that, in as much detail as possible,
perhaps it is a goal we can try to make a reality.

I personally do not agree with the vocabulary that "socialism"
is a byword for "plan-economy," and therefore don't really
understand what you are saying when "socialism requires as
much planning as capitalism." If I had to switch to this
anglo-saxon vocabulary I would say: socialism is not socialism.
Because the plan-economy does not work, it produces social
ills and is therefore not social(ist). If socialism is not
socialism, then we are having a vocabulary problem.

Anyway, to reply to your argument: I agree that in a plan-economy
you will end up with the same total amount of planning as in a
capitalist society. However in a /market-society/ you have
independent companies (groups), and since they are indipendent
units free floating in the markets they will *localize* their
planning to themselves and their specialization. It is this
*localization* of planning that makes it possible for a
market-society to do the same amount of planning as a plan-economy,
without imploding from the impossibly large management task that
in a plan-economy all falls on the shoulders of the Government.

I would therefore say, vocabulary wise, that trade and a market
economy is social(ist). However that does not mean the market
economy should be a capitalist market-economy, which is in my
opinion also not socialism.

If I may put that idea of mine on the list:
- plan-economy is bad (we agree on this ?)

- market-economy is good (my idea)

- capitalist economy is bad (my idea).

How do you feel about a market-economy, and if you like it how
do you think it should be structured, why would it work or why
would it not work ?

Ron Peterson <r... at (no spam) shell.core.com> wrote:
On Jul 19, 1:28=A0am, "J.H.Boersema" <jo... at (no spam) xs4all.nl> wrote:

To summerize:
- National debt must be 0 or marginal in size. I say it must be 0,
I agree with any reduction.

- The capitalist system is basically OK, but not quite because decisions
must be made in the interest of people rather then of a select few
people (who represent capital?). This is not happening, but switching
to elected representatives is not an answer, either. Political
appointees is worse.

So what you are pretty much saying is: things aren't too bad system
wise, but "capital" has (too much) power which is wrong, decisions
must be made more in the interest of society but it can't be made
to happen through the Government.

Possible avenues of action then:
1. We try to change the Government somehow, to somehow try to make it
more competent.

2. Try to identify a group of people who can do the planning or part of
the planning, a group that is neither Government representatives,
neither Government appointees, and neither representatives and/or
owners for "capital" (such as investment firms and their minions,
I guess ?).

3. Reduces/destroy the national debt. If we succeed in point 1, we might
be able to succeed with point 3.

On Jul 20, 4:58 am, "J.H.Boersema" <jo... at (no spam) xs4all.nl> wrote:
Ron Peterson <r... at (no spam) shell.core.com> wrote:
On Jul 19, 1:28=A0am, "J.H.Boersema" <jo... at (no spam) xs4all.nl> wrote:

To summerize:
- National debt must be 0 or marginal in size. I say it must be 0,
I agree with any reduction.

National debt is only part of the picture, the most important part is
the net equity which would be the non-private assets minus the
national debt.

- The capitalist system is basically OK, but not quite because decisions
must be made in the interest of people rather then of a select few
people (who represent capital?). This is not happening, but switching
to elected representatives is not an answer, either. Political
appointees is worse.

There are always exceptions where an elected representative or
appointee can be wonderful in their job.

So what you are pretty much saying is: things aren't too bad system
wise, but "capital" has (too much) power which is wrong, decisions
must be made more in the interest of society but it can't be made
to happen through the Government.

A government could do a good job of it. Utility regulatory commissions
have done a fine job in the past in the US with getting electricity,
natural gas, and water to the public in a safe and economical manner.

Possible avenues of action then:
1. We try to change the Government somehow, to somehow try to make it
more competent.

Election of decision makers instead of appointments would be a good
first step.

2. Try to identify a group of people who can do the planning or part of
the planning, a group that is neither Government representatives,
neither Government appointees, and neither representatives and/or
owners for "capital" (such as investment firms and their minions,
I guess ?).

The jury selection process in the US is nice because very few are
excluded from serving. (It's only bad when you get picked because the
compensation is poor and it takes one away from regular work).

Naturally, there needs to be some minimum knowledge and reasoning
ability for any group to be effective. Professional organizations can
serve as that filter to assure the public. (e.g. doctors, lawyers,
engineers, etc.)

3. Reduces/destroy the national debt. If we succeed in point 1, we might
be able to succeed with point 3.

It depends how much net equity the government can establish.

- We already decided national debt is bad. I say we default on it,
  because it is deferred taxation. We'll create a commission to
  repay sad cases (ignorant widows having invested their life
  savings to care for their ill sister and on the advice of some
  neigbor kid put it into bonds, etc.) The rest: "f*ck you too." haha.

- Now the big system question we are grinding on, and we should keep
  grinding on it: what people can handle the planning of society.
  I suppose you are not willing to do away with Government in its
  law making, policing etc tasks ? That means we are talking about
  economic planning: the companies, the resources, the infrastructure
  (or is that the Govmnt its task) ?

  As we all know: companies do their own planning. Individuals also
  do their own life planning, and may move independently in/out
  companies planning their own adventure through life. Then the
  Government is working on laws and general issues. So that means
  there is 3 levels of planning going on, all independent and
  self-directing:

  - individual
  - groups (companies)
  - Government

  You mentioned "professional organizations" can help with the
  planning, presumably you mean they can hold elections ? What will
  they direct in each of the 3 areas above mentioned (or are those
  3 areas no longer relevant in how you'd change things). Will these
  professional organizations be industry wide, or capture a sector
  of an industry together with other such professional organizations
  (Unions are professional organizations) ?

  Do you want to do away with companies in this process ?

Allright, thanks. Let's leave the debt issue because it isn't that
important. You can pay it back if you like.

The system as you are envisioning it should be described in law.
Without law we have nothing.

Let's get back to the discussion then: what is broken, and if we
know what is broken how are we going to fix it. Once we know that,
we know what to do, and then we can go do it.

Let's get back to the discussion then: what is broken, and if we
know what is broken how are we going to fix it. Once we know that,
we know what to do, and then we can go do it.

Here's something.. The Tools of Society... or however you want to put
it.. Government, industry, finance, security, accedemics, agriculture,
religion, healthcare, *!MEDIA!*..
These tools are not used by us.. we don't incorporate them into our
daily lives.. so we alow others to use them on us.. against us..
oppression..
What is broken is the Poeple.. We've made ourselves too comfortable..
dependant on multinational corp's for sustanance.. (comming from the
arctic)
Many make themselves soo comfortable they neglect the developing
children therefore expecting somone else to do it for us (or not at
all) allowing this oppression to grab hold (greed of power)
People need to WAKE up and start taking control of their reality.. We
need our Character back apposed for the materialistic world we've
created for ourselves.
Take the tools back and incorporate it into our daily lives instead of
leaving it above us.

Media is the most obvious tool being used againsed us, propaganda,
media controle, worst of all Distractions.. Today's cartoons are
sick.. Distractions galore brainwashing kids into inactive lives..

What does Communisim and Capatilism have in common? They're only as
corrupt or "Evil" as the people in power backing it.. Power eh..

Media is the most obvious tool being used againsed us, propaganda,
media controle, worst of all Distractions.. Today's cartoons are
sick.. Distractions galore brainwashing kids into inactive lives..