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"Daydream Believer" will be on Susan Boyle's CD...

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catgod29 at (no spam) home_on_the_range.com...
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:05 pm
Guest
Quote:
Of course, quite a few records now considered iconic, were not as well
regarded when released, and there are a few that were big hits only after
they were re-released. As always it takes a combination of publicity and
public interest, for a record to be a hit.

Good point, although I'd add timing to that combination of publicity
and public interest. I've always thought one reason some records
didn't do so well had as much to do with what was out there at the
time and how well the competition was playing on the radio and selling
in the stores.

Quote:
However, not every artist is going to appeal to the masses, nor every record
from an artist that does. There will always be a majority of artists who
have a small but loyal following, and usually a number of people who can't
stand them, with the majority of people who couldn't care one way or the
other.

I tend to think the artists with a small but loyal following aren't
going to have that many people who can't stand them. I think the
majority of artists who are disliked by a certain number of people are
the ones who are successful. And sometimes, that's not because of the
artist's music but because they perceive the artist in question poses
a threat to an artist they happen to like as far as the sales are
concerned. Sometimes, it's just that they don't like the artist at
all. But, I've met very few people who expressed a dislike of an
artist with a very small following; most were of the majority who
couldn't care one way or the other, unless the artist happened to
catch on later with most of the public. Then, they would claim, "I
listened to this person before they became famous!" or some other
claptrap.

Quote:
Which is the real shame, because nearly all records have someone who likes
them, the problem is always expectations of large sales. Once upon a time
the cost of recording/pressing/distribution etc. meant they couldn't take a
risk on low volume sales. Thankfuly these days there is no real reason for
not putting the material out there, other than the fact the Artist
themselves don't want it released because they are unhappy with it.
I personally know of a lot of good stuff that will never see the light of
day, even though the fans really wanted it. Shame really.

The record companies don't expect everyone to have large sales. There
was one act -- think it was Alabama -- whose first album was expected
to sell no more than 200,000 copies, tops. It wasn't expected to even
sell that many but the label was surprised when it went on to become a
million seller. Still, there's no denying that the record companies
overpress albums in expectation of large sales and then it doesn't
happen. Albums are a crap shoot and sales expectations shouldn't be
set too high on any artist where it's unknown as to how well they will
do.

Quote:
That is a benefit if the record company actually releases you from a
contract. Far too many artists were stuffed by companies that failed to
release (and/or promote) their records, and refused to release them from
their contract to boot. These days getting a CD out is within the reach of
everyone *without* needing a major recording label.

What you say makes sense, although I think it would be in the artist's
interest if the perception was or is they dropped the label, rather
than the label dropped them. Being dropped still carries a negative
connotation for the artist but it can be a positive for the artist
dropping the label, as an artist often cites the lack of label
promotion as a reason for leaving the label. Label executives at other
labels may agree with that assessment and approach the artist with a
view to the artist signing with their label. But, as you say, these
days, an artist doesn't need a major recording label, which is all the
more reason for labels to be competitive with newer music
technologies. It's not competitive to give an artist a royalty rate of
seventy five cents per album, not when they can get a much better
royalty rate for downloads. Nez was getting a 50% royalty on the
download for the songs for "Rays," which in album form and if someone
downloaded all twelve songs, worked out to about six dollars per
album. That's why record companies need to be that competitive when it
comes to the artists and stop with the lousy and draconian practices.
I rather they remain in business than out of business.

Quote:
Yep, even when they're not Smile ... Think Lennon/McCartney!

John was always the first to admit not everything he wrote was a gem.
I'm less certain about Paul. I can't recall him ever saying some of
his songs weren't even up to his standards or John's standards, though
I think he had more songs than John that weren't gems.

Quote:
Possibly, but Elvis was still recording many songs at the time under other
publishers.
The movies did seem to be a special case however.

In the 50s and early 60s, I think Parker didn't have a problem with an
oustide publisher since Elvis's publishing companies had the
publishing on so many of the songs. The exception to that was the Sun
material and many of the songs on Elvis's first album. But, Parker had
part of the publishing on some of those songs and I think later on
acquired all of the publishing on a couple of the songs. But, I think
Parker could've had 100% of the publishing if he had just taken better
care of the songwriters. Like Elvis's musicians, he felt Elvis didn't
need their services so much as they needed Elvis's services and as it
was always about money, he was too cheap to keep them on the payroll.

Quote:
Elvis had

some genuine songwriting credits (cowriting credit on "That's Someone
You Never Forget" and "You'll Be Gone," sole writing credit on the
posthumously released "I Didn't Make It On Playing Guitar")

Given the three you mention, maybe with good reason!
Not his biggest hits anyway Smile

Red West cowrote "That's Someone You Never Forget" and "You'll Be
Gone" (also cowritten by Charlie Hodge) and I think he wrote the music
for the former, while the latter was a take off of "Begin the
Beguine," the story of which I think has it that Elvis wanted to
record and release that song but the song's author, Cole Porter,
refused, and in a case similar to that of how the Monkees came up with
"Goin' Down," Elvis, Red and Charlie used the chords, altered the
melody and wrote some new lyrics. "I Didn't Make It On Playing
Guitar," I don't think was meant as a serious effort at writing a
song. It sounds more like an informal jam session between Elvis and
his Nashville band (the same guys who played on Nez's Nashville
sessions) with Elvis singing some lyrics off mike. It wasn't a good
tune but it was surprising that for a jam tune, only Elvis received
writer's credit. Maybe he did come up with it but didn't plan on
keeping those lyrics.

Quote:
But that's what I dispute. A lot of the covers already had other pubishers
and it didn't stop him recording them.
Perhaps some.

Parker tried to get part of the publishing on those songs. Much of the
time, he was successful but not every publisher gave in. It didn't
stop Elvis from recording the song but neither did it stop Parker from
making threats when he wasn't able to get a percentage. He kept at it
until Elvis finally having had enough told him to just stop as it was
interfering with the recording.

Quote:
True, Elvis didn't have 100% of the publishing on every song, but on a

good majority of the songs in the 50s and 60s, his publishing
companies had 100% of the publishing.

Maybe, I really don't know, I'd love to know where your "good majority"
claim comes from though.

His publishing companies were originally listed as the publishers by
BMI or ASCAP on many of the tunes he recorded. That situation has
changed over the years as the copyrights reverted back to the
songwriters and they took them out of his publishing companies and
into their own or into other publishing companies. The majority of the
soundtrack songs were published by Elvis's publishing companies, and
even many of the non-soundtrack songs were published by one of his
companies because the songwriters were in many instances, the same
people who were writing for the movies. Just look at the writer names
on the credits that keep turning up on recording after recording.
Those songs didn't come from an outside publisher but they were the
majority of what Elvis recorded, especially in the 60s.

Quote:
Maybe, but there are also songwriters who still claim to be living on their
Elvis royalties, and others that paid for their houses at the time.

My guess would be those songwriters are some very well known names,
like Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller. Elvis's sales should've been
lifetime financial security for all of the songwriters who wrote a
song in the 50s and 60s which he recorded, regardless of whether he
had the publishing. I'm not sure about the 70s as I've seen some
figures claimed for original album sales on FTD reissues which were
pretty low. Then again, it's not unusual for a record company to claim
a recording didn't sell or didn't sell in the numbers claimed by an
artist (example: Nez's claim that an independent audit for "Joanne"
showed more than a million sales; RCA disputed, claiming the 45 only
sold 325,000) and I know certain writers claim they've made some
pretty good money from the songs they wrote that Elvis recorded in the
70s.

Quote:
Perhaps, or perhaps he was just full of **** Smile

If memory serves (and it can be faulty of late), they showed a photo
of that check, which was from Elvis Presley Music, made out to Charlie
Daniels in the amount of $500. But, thinking about that, since Bob
Johnston and/or his wife Joy Byers, cowrote the song, they also
would've been given a royalty check for $500. Johnston was/is
Daniels's manager-producer but I don't remember him making the same
claim in the special. And he was interviewed as well.

Quote:
I totally agree, not only does she re-record the same song a number of times
(Ruby Tuesday must be in the Guiness book for most number of re-recordings
by the same artist by now) but she sometimes puts the same versions on
different albums as well (not just the compilations, although there have
been plenty of those lately)
It does make it easy for you to find "Long Long Time" though, since the same
version from "Silver Anniversary" has been on a number of other compilations
(Unplugged and Millenium Collection for starters)

I may have Melanie's version of "Long, Long Time." I've got some of of
her later albums, such as "Freedom Knows My Name" and "Old Bitch
Warrior," and thinking about it, I think LLT is on one of those
albums. I wish she would resist the temptation to remake a song she's
already done. I don't know what the reason is behind so many remakes
of "Ruby Tuesday," unless she's never been satisfied with all the
previous takes and keeps trying to improve on it, hoping to finally
come up with the perfect version of the song. I'd like to get her
version of "The Long and Winding Road," which she did in the 70s for a
Beatles TV tribute. That was one of the best versions I ever heard of
that song but it was never on any of her albums. (Someone posted the
video on youtube, along with the other Beatle songs she did on that
special, "We Can Work It Out" and "Rocky Raccoon," which were also
pretty good.)

Quote:
Don't know anything about her personal troubles, I don't follow the gossip
columns much, just listen to the music.

Her personal troubles have interfered with her music career. You name
the trouble, chances are good she's experienced it.

Quote:
Probably true, which is why it puzzles me they would complain about long
songs.
The GFR and Rare Earth songs you mention never got much airplay here
however.

I think it had to do with the advertising. If your hour of radio
airtime was spent evenly divided between music and revenue, you had to
keep playing enough music to keep people listening while at the same
time, keep the commercials to a minimum so the listeners didn't switch
stations. In setting aside a thirty minute time frame for music, if
songs were limited to three minutes or less, the minimum number you
could play was ten songs. Course, I think they played more than ten
songs in an hour in the 60s and 70s but it seemed like they also had a
lot of commercials. That's even more true today. I'd swear some of the
stations run five minute blocks of commercials between the playing of
music or the gabbing of talk show hosts.

Quote:
All her albums are good, however AFH is not my favourite. (actually follows
their collaboration on "Evangeline Made" already)
I just can't get into any of her Mexican or Cajun stuff as much. Which is
why "Renee" stands out, I wish there were far more like that on the album.
She has certainly earned the right to make what she wants to now however,
and she does.

I'd like to see Linda get back into a rock groove or even make a solid
country album. She talked about doing that, once, but nothing ever
came of it. But, she's into being an artist and that influences what
she's going to do. The Mexican stuff was very successful for her. The
albums didn't do well on the pop charts but she sold millions in the
Spanish market in the US. I'm not sure why those albums didn't make it
to the top of the pop charts.The sales should've qualified for the top
position or somewhere near the top position,

Quote:
Probably, I doubt she did it because she wanted to push the idea Smile

She was on some TV show at the time -- maybe American Bandstand, and I
think she was asked about the song. I don't remember what her response
was but given her age at the time (22 or 23), she may have been a
little naive then. And perhaps a little innocent.

Quote:
The box sets are always a cynical exercise in extracting as much money from
the dedicated fans as possible.
The Monkees Box was no different.

I agree with you. I'd like to see a box set include rarities and
unreleased stuff as when the artist's original albums are still
available, and greatest hits packages are still available, releasing a
box set with all of the hits and little or none of the rarities or
unreleased, I'm not inclined to buy. You've got to give something I
don't already have, preferably a lot of stuff I don't aalready have.
One ort wo previously unreleased recordings makes a box set an
expensive item just to get two previously unreleased songs.

Quote:
"Next Time, This Time" gets to me because it has the sense of there

being someone real who inspired the song. I can relate to the song

because there has been someone in my life that I feel that way about.

You could add I'll Have to Say I Love You in a Song, Age, Recently, These
Dreams, It Doesn't Have to be That Way, A Long Time Ago and many others to
that list.

That is true....

Quote:
I doubt he would have considered not doing so.

even though it cost him his life.

He didn't know that of course.

True.

Quote:
Yes, it always surprised me how *many* concerts he did, when a few big
stadium gigs a year would have been enough.
After "Aloha from Hawaii", you'd think he would have just done a few more of
those instead of workinhg himself to death.

He wanted to tour Europe, Japan, Australia and other countries around
the world that he had never been to. But, he didn't know that the
reason Parker never booked him outside of the US (except for one time
in Canada) was because Parker wasn't a US citizen and couldn't get a
passport and didn't trust anyone else to run the show. It was claimed
he found out just before he died that Parker wasn't a US citizen but
how that would've affected his career is something that will never be
known, although one of the rumors about the six month break following
the September 1977 tour had it that in 1978, one was finally going to
see Elvis's world tour, followed by a return to making movies. That
was claimed by some of the Presley insiders, but on some of those
insiders, their credibility isn't great.

Quote:
Parkers greed knew no bounds, I sure hope he lost on that one.

I think it was claimed that it only sold 50,000 copies. Mildly
successful but highly irritating in that the album carried a $7.98
suggested retail price while Elvis's regular studio albums at the time
carried a $5.98 SRP. That album should've been put out at the SRP for
albums on the Camden label ($2.49) with Elvis's regular studio albums
carrying the $7.98 SRP.

Quote:
Not sure about the USA, but they're pretty much over "Monkee Bashing" down
here.
You don't hear a lot about them, but it's mostly postive now when you do.

I think I did see one positive criticism for the Monkees coming from
the critics regarding the comparison of the shows. And I don't believe
the criticism was aimed at the Jonas brothers so much as the Disney
company, but there's not much Monkee bashing here either, beyond the
normal suspects who will never get over the issue or allow it to die
down completely. It's an issue that doesn't matter to the majority of
people here. It's the music that matters, what it should've always
been,
 
TonyP...
Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:47 pm
Guest
"catgod29 at (no spam) home_on_the_range.com" <catgod29 at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:93290a57-783e-4d00-ad82-cdaf4e0a3fe9 at (no spam) c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Good point, although I'd add timing to that combination of publicity
and public interest. I've always thought one reason some records
didn't do so well had as much to do with what was out there at the
time and how well the competition was playing on the radio and selling
in the stores.


Sure, but just because something is huge at the time, doesn't prevent
everything else from selling. A *large* number of acts did well at the same
time as the Beatles and Elvis were dominating the charts after all, the
Monkees for one! :-)


Quote:
The record companies don't expect everyone to have large sales. There
was one act -- think it was Alabama -- whose first album was expected
to sell no more than 200,000 copies, tops.


I'm not talking 200,000, which isn't bad after all. I'm talking about
<20,000! You can certainly make money on that amount of sales these days,
especially when the material is already in the can, and the alternative is
to bury it and make nothing at all! And who knows, you may well be
surprised.


Quote:
What you say makes sense, although I think it would be in the artist's
interest if the perception was or is they dropped the label, rather
than the label dropped them. Being dropped still carries a negative
connotation for the artist but it can be a positive for the artist
dropping the label, as an artist often cites the lack of label
promotion as a reason for leaving the label.


Sure, but only IF it doesn't cost them a fortune like happened to some
artists who walked away from contracts, or bought them out with their own
money.
Legal fees and compensation payments can cripple an artist, better to suffer
a short term "negative connotation" and have the money to do the next album.
Fact is artists have come back from all sorts of scandals, IF the next album
was considered good enough.


Quote:
John was always the first to admit not everything he wrote was a gem.
I'm less certain about Paul. I can't recall him ever saying some of
his songs weren't even up to his standards or John's standards, though
I think he had more songs than John that weren't gems.

So true, their post Beatles efforts certainly proved that IMO.


Quote:
Parker tried to get part of the publishing on those songs. Much of the
time, he was successful but not every publisher gave in. It didn't
stop Elvis from recording the song but neither did it stop Parker from
making threats when he wasn't able to get a percentage.

Well that sounds about right!


Quote:
He kept at it
until Elvis finally having had enough told him to just stop as it was
interfering with the recording.

Such a shame he didn't tell Parker where to go, when he was unhappy about
all the crap movie deals in the sixties though.
I blame Elvis for that. Stupid, gutless, or greedy? Not really sure.
Probably all three.


Quote:
His publishing companies were originally listed as the publishers by
BMI or ASCAP on many of the tunes he recorded. That situation has
changed over the years as the copyrights reverted back to the
songwriters and they took them out of his publishing companies and
into their own or into other publishing companies. The majority of the
soundtrack songs were published by Elvis's publishing companies, and
even many of the non-soundtrack songs were published by one of his
companies because the songwriters were in many instances, the same
people who were writing for the movies. Just look at the writer names
on the credits that keep turning up on recording after recording.
Those songs didn't come from an outside publisher but they were the
majority of what Elvis recorded, especially in the 60s.


Sure, in the sixties, I never disputed that. The fifties and seventies were
different by and large. Some of the publishing for the fifties stuff was
bought in the sixties by Elvis, but people do get paid for that, (just like
Michael Jackson buying the Beatles songs, the Beatles got a lot when they
sold them originally, before Jackson, but they still complained later of
course)


Quote:
If memory serves (and it can be faulty of late), they showed a photo
of that check, which was from Elvis Presley Music, made out to Charlie
Daniels in the amount of $500. But, thinking about that, since Bob
Johnston and/or his wife Joy Byers, cowrote the song, they also
would've been given a royalty check for $500.


And how many such checks they got is another matter as well. The only way
they would only get one is IF they agreed to a lump sum payment for all
rights in the first place. IF they did that, then blaming someone else for
their poor decision is just sour grapes IMO.


Quote:
I may have Melanie's version of "Long, Long Time." I've got some of of
her later albums, such as "Freedom Knows My Name" and "Old Bitch
Warrior," and thinking about it, I think LLT is on one of those
albums.


No, but FKMN, does have her version of "Arrow" which I love.


Quote:
I wish she would resist the temptation to remake a song she's
already done. I don't know what the reason is behind so many remakes
of "Ruby Tuesday," unless she's never been satisfied with all the
previous takes and keeps trying to improve on it, hoping to finally
come up with the perfect version of the song.

Maybe, funny that I still prefer her first one, and I don't think I'm alone.


Quote:
I'd like to get her
version of "The Long and Winding Road," which she did in the 70s for a
Beatles TV tribute. That was one of the best versions I ever heard of
that song but it was never on any of her albums. (Someone posted the
video on youtube, along with the other Beatle songs she did on that
special, "We Can Work It Out" and "Rocky Raccoon," which were also
pretty good.)

Haven't seen them, are they still on YouTube?


<Mindy McCready>
Quote:
Her personal troubles have interfered with her music career. You name
the trouble, chances are good she's experienced it.


Probably explains why she hasn't done much then. I sometimes wonder but
never follow up on it.
Jessica Andrews is another I thought might have done more. Maybe I will do a
Google search one day :-)


Quote:
I'd like to see Linda get back into a rock groove or even make a solid
country album. She talked about doing that, once, but nothing ever
came of it.

She did do "We Ran" and "Western Wall" after the Spanish and Latin stuff,
now she's onto Cajun stuff it seems. I'll bet she does some more mainstream
one day.


Quote:
But, she's into being an artist and that influences what
she's going to do. The Mexican stuff was very successful for her.

Of course, and I have no problem with that. What annoys me is that the
Spanish concert is the only one officially available on DVD, despite
previous releases on VHS.


Quote:
The albums didn't do well on the pop charts but she sold millions
in the Spanish market in the US.
I'm not sure why those albums didn't make it
to the top of the pop charts.The sales should've qualified for the top
position or somewhere near the top position.

Sure, but they don't usually include Classical either, no matter what the
sales.
Or Andrea Reui would probably be in the "Pop" charts too :-)


Quote:
She was on some TV show at the time -- maybe American Bandstand, and I
think she was asked about the song. I don't remember what her response
was but given her age at the time (22 or 23), she may have been a
little naive then. And perhaps a little innocent.

I'm sure she was at the time.


Quote:
I agree with you. I'd like to see a box set include rarities and
unreleased stuff as when the artist's original albums are still
available, and greatest hits packages are still available, releasing a
box set with all of the hits and little or none of the rarities or
unreleased, I'm not inclined to buy. You've got to give something I
don't already have, preferably a lot of stuff I don't aalready have.


That's the problem, they do give a *little* nobody has, just so the *real
fans* have to buy. Then they fill it with stuff they already have to justify
a rip off price. Pure greed!!!!
(I will give them credit at least for putting out the three Missing Links
albums though, far better value there)

The Monkees Box could have had all the extra's they put on the album
re-releases, and let those who just want the hits to buy the "Definitive
Collection", or any of the dozen other greatest hits packages instead.
They know damn well that only the fans are going to buy the box set, and
want them to pay for the same songs as many times as they can possibly
manage!
But that's capitalistic greed for you.


Quote:
He wanted to tour Europe, Japan, Australia and other countries around
the world that he had never been to. But, he didn't know that the
reason Parker never booked him outside of the US (except for one time
in Canada) was because Parker wasn't a US citizen and couldn't get a
passport and didn't trust anyone else to run the show. It was claimed
he found out just before he died that Parker wasn't a US citizen

I'd be surprised he didn't know before then. But I still claim he was in
idiot for putting up with Parker regardless. And everyone I knew said so
long before he died.


Quote:
how that would've affected his career is something that will never be
known, although one of the rumors about the six month break following
the September 1977 tour had it that in 1978, one was finally going to
see Elvis's world tour, followed by a return to making movies. That
was claimed by some of the Presley insiders, but on some of those
insiders, their credibility isn't great.


Yeah, easy to claim anything afterwards.


Quote:
I think it was claimed that it only sold 50,000 copies. Mildly
successful but highly irritating in that the album carried a $7.98
suggested retail price while Elvis's regular studio albums at the time
carried a $5.98 SRP. That album should've been put out at the SRP for
albums on the Camden label ($2.49) with Elvis's regular studio albums
carrying the $7.98 SRP.


Who cares, $2.49 would probably still be a waste of money IMO. I've not
actually heard it though, far too much good stuff to listen to to waste my
time, let alone money


Quote:
I think I did see one positive criticism for the Monkees coming from
the critics regarding the comparison of the shows. And I don't believe
the criticism was aimed at the Jonas brothers so much as the Disney
company, but there's not much Monkee bashing here either, beyond the
normal suspects who will never get over the issue or allow it to die
down completely. It's an issue that doesn't matter to the majority of
people here. It's the music that matters, what it should've always
been,

So true, it just takes some people a long time to overcome their prejudices.
And a lot more people are so intent on being cool, they can't think for
themselves.
Abba suffered the same fate originally. Now they are almost considered cool,
funny how things change.

TonyP.
 
catgod29 at (no spam) home_on_the_range.com...
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:26 pm
Guest
Quote:
Sure, but just because something is huge at the time, doesn't prevent
everything else from selling. A *large* number of acts did well at the same
time as the Beatles and Elvis were dominating the charts after all, the
Monkees for one! Smile

That was especially true of the larger acts but the lesser acts had to
wait for radio to break them out so their 45s could then get a space
on the store shelf. I look at the Cashbox charts from the 50s, 60s and
70s and see hundreds of singles I didn't remember hearing or seeing in
the stores. Almost everything that was in their Top 50 I remember but
after 50, I started running into quite a few head scratchers.

One thing that bugged me about the charts was showing a different
chart ranking for a B-side if it was being played or accounting for
some of the sales. I think Billboard and Cashbox should've just given
the same chart position to both sides of a 45 when it was appropriate.
When both sides of a single were being played on the radio (Elvis and
the Beatles mostly, many of the Monkees's B-sides also charted), store
clerks didn't know which side of the single a teen was buying. I
remember "Words" having as much radio airplay as "Pleasant Valley
Sunday," yet because PVS was the A-side, it got the higher chart
position. I always felt "Words" got slighted on its showing. Billboard
later adopted the practice of showing the B-side as having the same
chart position as the A-side, but not with a number but a letter. An F
meaning the flip was being played and was selling. Of course, by then,
Elvis was just about the only artist still releasing double sided hit
records.


Quote:
I'm not talking 200,000, which isn't bad after all. I'm talking about
20,000! You can certainly make money on that amount of sales these days,
especially when the material is already in the can, and the alternative is
to bury it and make nothing at all! And who knows, you may well be
surprised.

Quite right, but I think record companies these days have slacked off
from overpressing too many copies. I don't know what the percentage of
unsold recordings is that's allowed to be shipped back to the label,
but in the LP days, the distributors charged fifty cents per LP for
distribution and charged the labels seventy-five cents on the returns.
The labels in turn charged the return fees back to the royalties the
artist was supposed to be receiving. It was no skin off the label's
bottom line if they pressed two million copies of an album and then
the album sold 20,000 copies. The artist was responsible for the
returns. The record companies tried their best in the bad old days to
make the artist responsible for as much of the costs associated with
the recording session and the manufacturing and distribution of the
albums and singles. That's why some artists never saw a dime of their
royalties. The artists had to pay for their own success.

Quote:
Sure, but only IF it doesn't cost them a fortune like happened to some
artists who walked away from contracts, or bought them out with their own
money.

Depends on what's written in their contracts. Most labels had options
in their artist contracts allowing the label to either refuse to
release a recording or to drop the artist, with or without notice. If
an artist's albums and singles didn't generate a lot of money, I doubt
any label would present the artist with a bill for services not
rendered, if the artist suddenly gave notice. Maybe if the artist was
given a huge advance against royalties.

Quote:
Legal fees and compensation payments can cripple an artist, better to suffer
a short term "negative connotation" and have the money to do the next album.
Fact is artists have come back from all sorts of scandals, IF the next album
was considered good enough.

That's true although what usually happens with an artist who's leaving
their label is they discover they were owed royalties that weren't
paid or there was something in their contracts that was objected to,
shouldn't have been there but was left in. Most artists leaving a
label are going to have something they can use in a court, if they
have to, in breaking a contract with the label. I sometimes feel the
lack of promotion gripe is simply meant to conceal other disputes with
the record companies. Certainly, many artists have a legitimate gripe
when it involves lack of promotion but I'm not sure lack of promotion
will hold up in court as a valid reason to break the contract.

Quote:
So true, their post Beatles efforts certainly proved that IMO.

John got off to the better start but then his songs got mired down in
the politics of the early 70s. I always thought some of that might
have been Yoko's influence as when she wasn't around during his so
called "lost period" in L.A., he did his best album, "Walls and
Bridges." Paul, as always, stuck to his silly love songs, which
usually proved successful although he also had that early 70s period
where his music wasn't as good as it could've been.

Quote:
Parker tried to get part of the publishing on those songs. Much of the
time, he was successful but not every publisher gave in. It didn't
stop Elvis from recording the song but neither did it stop Parker from
making threats when he wasn't able to get a percentage.

Well that sounds about right!

And only asking for a quarter on the percentage! I don't know where he
got the idea that a song already published was a proven commodity but
I'd've taken 100% of the publishing on an unknown song versus 25% of a
song already published. Even if Elvis didn't write songs, he knew
which songs would be hits and which ones were best suited for the
albums or not to be messed with at all.

Quote:
Such a shame he didn't tell Parker where to go, when he was unhappy about
all the crap movie deals in the sixties though.
I blame Elvis for that. Stupid, gutless, or greedy? Not really sure.
Probably all three.

Elvis deserves much of the blame for his own fate but that's still no
reason to allow Parker off the hook. Elvis complained about the movies
but Parker didn't listen nor did he care. All Parker cared about was
the million dollar salary plus 25-50% the movie and TV profits, enough
songs for a soundtrack and the publishing on those songs. Elvis
should've dumped Parker by '66 but my guess is because he knew how bad
Parker had mangled his career, perhaps he feared what other managers
would do? Parker was a role model in those days for many managers as
to what a good manager should be. Someone else could've took Elvis on
and signed him on for even lousier movies and lousier songs. Elvis may
simply have preferred the devil he knew to the one he didn't know.

Quote:
Sure, in the sixties, I never disputed that. The fifties and seventies were
different by and large. Some of the publishing for the fifties stuff was
bought in the sixties by Elvis, but people do get paid for that, (just like
Michael Jackson buying the Beatles songs, the Beatles got a lot when they
sold them originally, before Jackson, but they still complained later of
course)

Elvis through Parker acquired several publishing companies in the 60s
but don't think the lot included a lot of songs he personally
recorded. I think it was claimed he owned the copyrights to some 2,000
songs, which should've kept him rolling in the money even during lean
times on his own recordings. I'm not sure why Elvis never became a
billionaire with that many songs. The royalties were smaller back
then, but they were still small when McCartney bought out song
catalogues and became a billionaire through those acquisitions,
McCartney complaining about Jackson's acquisition of the Lennon-
McCartney catalogue was pretty laughable, given his own acquisition of
the Buddy Holly catalogue. Would Sir Paul give Buddy's catalogue back
to his family members? I doubt it!

Quote:
And how many such checks they got is another matter as well. The only way
they would only get one is IF they agreed to a lump sum payment for all
rights in the first place. IF they did that, then blaming someone else for
their poor decision is just sour grapes IMO.

I don't recall how BMI and ASCAP make royalty payments. I think they
pay quarterly, so I'm pretty sure Daniels has seen more than just $500
since 1964 from his song. I'm not sure that either organization allows
a lump sum payment against all future rights but it wouldn't surprise
me if either Parker or RCA or Hill and Range (which administered Elvis
Presley Music and Gladys Music) came up with some reason for taking
the money meant for the songwriter.

Quote:
No, but FKMN, does have her version of "Arrow" which I love.

Good tune. Another tune Melanie did that I love is "I Want to Know
What Love Is," which at first I thought was the Foreigner song. But,
it's a nice ballad that I thought should've been in a movie. I don't
know about what chances it would've had for a single; maybe on AOR/
Adult Contemporary stations as opposed to Top 40.

Quote:
I wish she would resist the temptation to remake a song she's
already done. I don't know what the reason is behind so many remakes
of "Ruby Tuesday," unless she's never been satisfied with all the
previous takes and keeps trying to improve on it, hoping to finally
come up with the perfect version of the song.

Maybe, funny that I still prefer her first one, and I don't think I'm alone.

Definitely the first version, although I did like the remake she made
for "Photograph," but had the sense not to put it on that album. I
remember the local radio stations playing "Cyclone" and I kept
thinking, "All right! Melanie's got a hit!" But, it didn't go on to
become a hit. I guess people just couldn't see Melanie as a tough
rocker. Personally, I would've put "Secret of the Darkness" out as a
single. That song would've hooked everybody.

Quote:
I'd like to get her
version of "The Long and Winding Road," which she did in the 70s for a
Beatles TV tribute. That was one of the best versions I ever heard of
that song but it was never on any of her albums. (Someone posted the
video on youtube, along with the other Beatle songs she did on that
special, "We Can Work It Out" and "Rocky Raccoon," which were also
pretty good.)

Haven't seen them, are they still on YouTube?

Last I looked, they were still on there. And Melanie was absolutely
foxy, looking more gorgeous and sexy than she looked in the early
70s.

Quote:
Mindy McCready

Probably explains why she hasn't done much then. I sometimes wonder but
never follow up on it.

Got beat up by a boyfriend, run ins with the law, a couple of suicide
tries, sued by former managers over royalties she made from her first
album -- the kind of tales that make up the cliches of country music.

Quote:
Jessica Andrews is another I thought might have done more. Maybe I will do a
Google search one day Smile

I blame the labels for not building an artist's long term career. This
year's hitmakers are next year's has-beens. One might break out and go
on to have a career like Elvis or the Beatles or any of the other
heavyweights but there are more one hit wonders than artists with
loads and loads of hits. Course, some of those one hit wonders have
milked a long term career on that one hit and they don't seem to be
pressured into coming up with another hit anytime soon.

Quote:
She did do "We Ran" and "Western Wall" after the Spanish and Latin stuff,
now she's onto Cajun stuff it seems. I'll bet she does some more mainstream
one day.

I'd like to think so. I'd like to see her write a few more songs,
too.

Quote:
Of course, and I have no problem with that. What annoys me is that the
Spanish concert is the only one officially available on DVD, despite
previous releases on VHS.

I wish someone would dig up the TV special she was supposed to have
done for CBS in 1977-78. I think it was filmed and that some bits and
pieces of it are on youtube, including one of Linda singing "Hasten
Down the Wind." Dang, I knew she wasn't very tall (only 5'2") but she
looked like a midget standing to the front and right of bassist Kenny
Edwards, her bandmate from the Stone Poneys. I'm not sure why Linda's
TV special was canceled but it had been announced at the same time as
the announcement for Elvis's last TV special. I would love to have
seen Linda and Elvis made an album together, though I think their
personalities might have clashed. And, of course, Parker would never
have agreed to it.

Quote:
Sure, but they don't usually include Classical either, no matter what the
sales.
Or Andrea Reui would probably be in the "Pop" charts too Smile

I think they should; after all, there isn't an issue with the pop
charts having country albums and R&B/soul albums, which are treated as
separate genres from the pop and rock genres. And the same country or
R&B/soul album that's number one on the pop are likely to be number
one on their respective charts as well. So, if a Spanish album or
classical album (or an album from any other genre) happens to sell
more than the album credited as the number one pop record, why
shouldn't such an album be accorded and shown the same respect and
reported as the number one album?

Quote:
She was on some TV show at the time -- maybe American Bandstand, and I
think she was asked about the song. I don't remember what her response
was but given her age at the time (22 or 23), she may have been a
little naive then. And perhaps a little innocent.

I'm sure she was at the time.

There's also a clip of Linda and Johnny Cash performing "I Never Will

Marry" on youtube and an interesting behind the scenes story about
that performance. Also, as to "Long, Long Time," there are two
performances on youtube worth watching, one being a live, guitar only
version of on Hugh Hefner's 1970 syndicated show "Playboy After Dark,"
and the other being a version from a Bobby Darin special that was also
syndicated. The Darin special, last I heard, is on dvd. I have it on
videotape and unfortunately, it's Linda's only appearance on his
special. But, that version also uses an arrangement that's quite
different from the studio version.

Quote:
That's the problem, they do give a *little* nobody has, just so the *real
fans* have to buy. Then they fill it with stuff they already have to justify
a rip off price. Pure greed!!!!
(I will give them credit at least for putting out the three Missing Links
albums though, far better value there)

I think there was a CSN or CSN&Y box set a few years ago that had one
disc containing nothing but unreleased stuff. I think the artists and/
or the labels take the view that if they release a lot of previously
unreleased material, they are giving away the family jewels. But, my
view as a fan is if I follow the artist, I'm a long time fan,
extremely faithful and if the artist is rarely recording these days,
why not come up with a disc or two (or three...or more) of unreleased
material? The artists aren't getting any younger and their fans aren't
either. The "Missing Links" series got it right but the rarities on
the box sets aren't enough to make the purchase a good value.

Quote:
The Monkees Box could have had all the extra's they put on the album
re-releases, and let those who just want the hits to buy the "Definitive
Collection", or any of the dozen other greatest hits packages instead.
They know damn well that only the fans are going to buy the box set, and
want them to pay for the same songs as many times as they can possibly
manage!
But that's capitalistic greed for you.

I'm seeing a lack of originality on the part of the record labels. In
the 90s, RCA/BMG started releasing a series of Elvis albums with the
title "Essential Elvis," spotlighting a particular era of Presley's
recordings. Well, it proved so popular that RCA started releasing
other "Essential..." albums by other artists and Sony got into the
"Essential" parade and released a ton of "Essential..." albums on
their artists. But, were those albums or songs, essential? Not
necessarily in my book. Very unoriginal. Course, now all those
"Essentials" are being joined by "36 All Time Greatest Hits," of which
there's one for the Monkees. All the same previously released
material, nothing new or improved, with a $30 price tag (discounted in
some catalogs). All time greatest hits? Hmm, well, okay, I can see the
hits that were the hits being considered all time greatest hits but is
"Sunny Girlfriend" one of the all time greatest hits for the Monkees?
I like Nez and I like his tunes and I like that tune but I'm not sure
everyone would agree it's an all time greatest hit.

Quote:
I'd be surprised he didn't know before then. But I still claim he was in
idiot for putting up with Parker regardless. And everyone I knew said so
long before he died.

He should've stood up for himself and put Parker in his place. Like I
said above, given he knew how badly Parker had mangled his career. I
think it's a possibility he just couldn't trust others to do better.
He should've took the chance and allowed the chips to fall where they
would've fell. As a manager, Parker did some good things for Elvis but
he also did some lousy things, like never getting Elvis an increase on
the artist royalty or getting him a producer's royalty, and the lousy
Vegas shows at two shows per night at even lousier pay. It was once
said Parker considered it his patriotic duty to keep Elvis's income in
the five to seven million dollars per year, but I think Parker may
have been just a little too gutless to ask for a whole lot more money,
even though, his client deserved it more than any other artist.

Quote:
Who cares, $2.49 would probably still be a waste of money IMO. I've not
actually heard it though, far too much good stuff to listen to to waste my
time, let alone money

It would've had some value if it was Elvis telling jokes, instead of
snippets of Elvis joking around on stage. But, the joke was on the
people who paid the six to eight dollars for the album. As you say
correctly, paying $2.49 would've still been a waste of money and the
joke would've still been on the people who bought the album, but they
might've felt a little less foolish at paying $2.49 (or less) than
paying $6-8 for that piece of crap.

Quote:
So true, it just takes some people a long time to overcome their prejudices.
And a lot more people are so intent on being cool, they can't think for
themselves.

I think a lot of people like to think they are cool but if they have
to let someone else decide for them what they can or can't like,
they're mindless idiots and should go home and bang their heads hard
against the wall. Maybe then they'd have enlightenment ;-p

Quote:
Abba suffered the same fate originally. Now they are almost considered cool,
funny how things change.

ABBA got another nod from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame but I don't
think this is going to be their year, again. ABBA has some support
from a lot of rock legends, so that helps with acceptance. You can't
really knock an act if another act or artist acknowledge themselves as
fans of that act. Of course, the critics would love to pounce on the
acts they hate but maybe they're afraid of ticking off rock's royalty.
 
TonyP...
Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:29 am
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Quote:
That was especially true of the larger acts but the lesser acts had to
wait for radio to break them out so their 45s could then get a space
on the store shelf. I look at the Cashbox charts from the 50s, 60s and
70s and see hundreds of singles I didn't remember hearing or seeing in
the stores. Almost everything that was in their Top 50 I remember but
after 50, I started running into quite a few head scratchers.

That will always be true, and also depends on what stations you listen to.
And the big question is, did they really deserve to do better anyway?


Quote:
One thing that bugged me about the charts was showing a different
chart ranking for a B-side if it was being played or accounting for
some of the sales. I think Billboard and Cashbox should've just given
the same chart position to both sides of a 45 when it was appropriate.
When both sides of a single were being played on the radio (Elvis and
the Beatles mostly, many of the Monkees's B-sides also charted), store
clerks didn't know which side of the single a teen was buying. I
remember "Words" having as much radio airplay as "Pleasant Valley
Sunday," yet because PVS was the A-side, it got the higher chart
position. I always felt "Words" got slighted on its showing. Billboard
later adopted the practice of showing the B-side as having the same
chart position as the A-side, but not with a number but a letter. An F
meaning the flip was being played and was selling. Of course, by then,
Elvis was just about the only artist still releasing double sided hit
records.


Yeah, the concept of rating songs differently when they could not be bought
seperately, was amazingly stupid. But hey, what else would you expect from
the recording industry, and radio stations? :-)


Quote:
Quite right, but I think record companies these days have slacked off
from overpressing too many copies. I don't know what the percentage of
unsold recordings is that's allowed to be shipped back to the label,
but in the LP days, the distributors charged fifty cents per LP for
distribution and charged the labels seventy-five cents on the returns.
The labels in turn charged the return fees back to the royalties the
artist was supposed to be receiving. It was no skin off the label's
bottom line if they pressed two million copies of an album and then
the album sold 20,000 copies. The artist was responsible for the
returns. The record companies tried their best in the bad old days to
make the artist responsible for as much of the costs associated with
the recording session and the manufacturing and distribution of the
albums and singles. That's why some artists never saw a dime of their
royalties. The artists had to pay for their own success.


Yes, allowing the companies to make money from the artist by pressing too
many records was asking for trouble. The artist usually had little say in
the exercise, and were talked into it by the suggestion they would lose
sales if the public had to wait while more were pressed. Since a good record
will sell for years or even decades, it's a poor admission of lousy lead
times at the pressing plants IMO.


Quote:
Depends on what's written in their contracts. Most labels had options
in their artist contracts allowing the label to either refuse to
release a recording or to drop the artist, with or without notice. If
an artist's albums and singles didn't generate a lot of money, I doubt
any label would present the artist with a bill for services not
rendered, if the artist suddenly gave notice. Maybe if the artist was
given a huge advance against royalties.

Or even a not so huge one. But companies could, and did, prevent artists
from recording with any other company while they were under contract. So if
they didn't release your album, or didn't promote it, the artist often had
to buy out their contract, or wait until it expired before they could
release a new record.


Quote:
That's true although what usually happens with an artist who's leaving
their label is they discover they were owed royalties that weren't
paid or there was something in their contracts that was objected to,
shouldn't have been there but was left in. Most artists leaving a
label are going to have something they can use in a court, if they
have to, in breaking a contract with the label.

Maybe, but only IF they can afford the legal fees.


Quote:
I sometimes feel the
lack of promotion gripe is simply meant to conceal other disputes with
the record companies. Certainly, many artists have a legitimate gripe
when it involves lack of promotion but I'm not sure lack of promotion
will hold up in court as a valid reason to break the contract.

Not unless it breaches a specified agreement. The simple fact is most
artists in the 50's, 60's 70's were far too eager to sign lousy contracts,
and only discovered they should have had better advice after it was too
late. The situation was so bad that is fairly well known now, and newer
artists are trapped far less often.


Quote:
Elvis deserves much of the blame for his own fate but that's still no
reason to allow Parker off the hook.


Of course not, it was only because Parker was so bad, that Elvis was stupid
in not getting rid of him.


Quote:
Elvis complained about the movies
but Parker didn't listen nor did he care. All Parker cared about was
the million dollar salary plus 25-50% the movie and TV profits, enough
songs for a soundtrack and the publishing on those songs. Elvis
should've dumped Parker by '66 but my guess is because he knew how bad
Parker had mangled his career, perhaps he feared what other managers
would do? Parker was a role model in those days for many managers as
to what a good manager should be. Someone else could've took Elvis on
and signed him on for even lousier movies and lousier songs. Elvis may
simply have preferred the devil he knew to the one he didn't know.

And I always say anyone who thinks like that deserves what they get. Fact is
the artist always has the last say no matter what the manager *tries* to
sign him up for. The artists signature is still required, and he has the
right to say no, unless he has an even more ridiculous contract with his
manager that gives them absolute discretion. In which case it is once again
the artists fault for signing *that* contract.

So many people blame others for their bad choices, but frankly I get sick of
hearing their whining. I've made my own bad choices, but I live with them,
and I don't have the money for a raft of legal advice like Elvis did, before
he signed anything!


Quote:
Elvis through Parker acquired several publishing companies in the 60s
but don't think the lot included a lot of songs he personally
recorded. I think it was claimed he owned the copyrights to some 2,000
songs, which should've kept him rolling in the money even during lean
times on his own recordings. I'm not sure why Elvis never became a
billionaire with that many songs.

Allowing for inflation, he was (in todays money) even before he died. The
estate is worth even more now of course.


Quote:
McCartney complaining about Jackson's acquisition of the Lennon-
McCartney catalogue was pretty laughable, given his own acquisition of
the Buddy Holly catalogue. Would Sir Paul give Buddy's catalogue back
to his family members? I doubt it!

Me either. But very few people that rich are not hypocrits. Had to laugh
when Heather Mills took half his money, he must have been the only one who
didn't see that coming :-)


Quote:
I don't recall how BMI and ASCAP make royalty payments. I think they
pay quarterly, so I'm pretty sure Daniels has seen more than just $500
since 1964 from his song. I'm not sure that either organization allows
a lump sum payment against all future rights but it wouldn't surprise
me if either Parker or RCA or Hill and Range (which administered Elvis
Presley Music and Gladys Music) came up with some reason for taking
the money meant for the songwriter.

Sure, you can arrange contracts to achieve almost anything, BUT they still
have to be signed.


Quote:
Good tune. Another tune Melanie did that I love is "I Want to Know
What Love Is," which at first I thought was the Foreigner song. But,
it's a nice ballad that I thought should've been in a movie. I don't
know about what chances it would've had for a single; maybe on AOR/
Adult Contemporary stations as opposed to Top 40.

I doubt it unfortunately, I don't think they generate many sales.


Quote:
Definitely the first version, although I did like the remake she made
for "Photograph," but had the sense not to put it on that album. I
remember the local radio stations playing "Cyclone" and I kept
thinking, "All right! Melanie's got a hit!" But, it didn't go on to
become a hit.

Made the top 40 in Australia on the back of her tour. I sure WISH she'd come
back again!


Quote:
I guess people just couldn't see Melanie as a tough
rocker. Personally, I would've put "Secret of the Darkness" out as a
single. That song would've hooked everybody.

I'm not so sure. While I loved *many* of her songs, she just didn't appeal
to the masses that much after "Candle in the Rain" unfortunately.


Quote:
Last I looked, they were still on there.

Thanks, you are right.

Quote:
And Melanie was absolutely
foxy, looking more gorgeous and sexy than she looked in the early
70s.

I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, but she has certainly aged very well!
:-)


Quote:
Mindy McCready
Got beat up by a boyfriend, run ins with the law, a couple of suicide
tries, sued by former managers over royalties she made from her first
album -- the kind of tales that make up the cliches of country music.


You'd think she has plenty of material for new songs then! Smile or should
that be :-(


Quote:
I blame the labels for not building an artist's long term career. This
year's hitmakers are next year's has-beens. One might break out and go
on to have a career like Elvis or the Beatles or any of the other
heavyweights but there are more one hit wonders than artists with
loads and loads of hits. Course, some of those one hit wonders have
milked a long term career on that one hit and they don't seem to be
pressured into coming up with another hit anytime soon.


Yep, not everyone can, or wants to appeal to the masses for top40 sales. A
good performer can live off their concerts and small volume record sales for
the rest of their life however, and it sure beats digging ditches IMO.


Quote:
I'd like to think so. I'd like to see her write a few more songs,
too.

I really doubt that will happen, but who knows, Emmylou Harris only started
fairly late in her career, and she's done a couple of albums of her own
stuff. I certainly wouldn't put money on Linda writing many now though!


Quote:
I wish someone would dig up the TV special she was supposed to have
done for CBS in 1977-78. I think it was filmed and that some bits and
pieces of it are on youtube, including one of Linda singing "Hasten
Down the Wind."

I've got the Live in Atlanta one on VHS, is that the one you mean? It's
available on DVD bootlegs if you want it.
Great concert!
The Johnny Cash & Linda 'Behind Prison Walls" is available on DVD though,
she does 4 songs.


Quote:
Dang, I knew she wasn't very tall (only 5'2") but she
looked like a midget standing to the front and right of bassist Kenny
Edwards, her bandmate from the Stone Poneys. I'm not sure why Linda's
TV special was canceled but it had been announced at the same time as
the announcement for Elvis's last TV special. I would love to have
seen Linda and Elvis made an album together, though I think their
personalities might have clashed. And, of course, Parker would never
have agreed to it.

No unfortunately, but that "duet" that was put together of them singing
"Love Me Tender" was pretty good.
Of course it would have been even better if the did a film together, then we
may have had some duets like Elvis did with Ann Margret and Nancy Sinatra.
Parker would have agreed to that I imagine.


Quote:
I think they should; after all, there isn't an issue with the pop
charts having country albums and R&B/soul albums, which are treated as
separate genres from the pop and rock genres. And the same country or
R&B/soul album that's number one on the pop are likely to be number
one on their respective charts as well. So, if a Spanish album or
classical album (or an album from any other genre) happens to sell
more than the album credited as the number one pop record, why
shouldn't such an album be accorded and shown the same respect and
reported as the number one album?


No argument from me, I'd simply have seperate charts for each genre, *and*
an overall sales chart for everything. The problem still remains on who
publishes what, and who cares. Total sales figures, Gold and Platinum
accreditation ignore genre anyway, and are a better indicator IMO.


Quote:
There's also a clip of Linda and Johnny Cash performing "I Never Will
Marry" on youtube and an interesting behind the scenes story about
that performance. Also, as to "Long, Long Time," there are two
performances on youtube worth watching, one being a live, guitar only
version of on Hugh Hefner's 1970 syndicated show "Playboy After Dark,"
and the other being a version from a Bobby Darin special that was also
syndicated. The Darin special, last I heard, is on dvd. I have it on
videotape and unfortunately, it's Linda's only appearance on his
special. But, that version also uses an arrangement that's quite
different from the studio version.

Yes, I've seen it on YouTube.


Quote:
I think there was a CSN or CSN&Y box set a few years ago that had one
disc containing nothing but unreleased stuff. I think the artists and/
or the labels take the view that if they release a lot of previously
unreleased material, they are giving away the family jewels. But, my
view as a fan is if I follow the artist, I'm a long time fan,
extremely faithful and if the artist is rarely recording these days,
why not come up with a disc or two (or three...or more) of unreleased
material?


Exactly, they aren't "giving away" anything, they are SELLING it!
It's the "extortion racket" that I hate!



Quote:
The artists aren't getting any younger and their fans aren't
either. The "Missing Links" series got it right but the rarities on
the box sets aren't enough to make the purchase a good value.

Exactly, and they know it. They just want to generate a few more sales from
desperate fans.


Quote:
I'm seeing a lack of originality on the part of the record labels. In
the 90s, RCA/BMG started releasing a series of Elvis albums with the
title "Essential Elvis," spotlighting a particular era of Presley's
recordings. Well, it proved so popular that RCA started releasing
other "Essential..." albums by other artists and Sony got into the
"Essential" parade and released a ton of "Essential..." albums on
their artists. But, were those albums or songs, essential? Not
necessarily in my book. Very unoriginal. Course, now all those
"Essentials" are being joined by "36 All Time Greatest Hits," of which
there's one for the Monkees. All the same previously released
material, nothing new or improved, with a $30 price tag (discounted in
some catalogs). All time greatest hits? Hmm, well, okay, I can see the
hits that were the hits being considered all time greatest hits but is
"Sunny Girlfriend" one of the all time greatest hits for the Monkees?
I like Nez and I like his tunes and I like that tune but I'm not sure
everyone would agree it's an all time greatest hit.


Of course not, but just as with the "Essential" seies, it's only a name. Who
cares whether it's called "Best of", "Greatest Hits", "Essential",
"Definitive Collection", or *any* other name. You buy the songs, and if I
want enough of them to justify the price, I don't mind if there are
"extras". The days of me buying an album for one or two new songs is gone
though. I just get annoyed now, but live with it. Thankfully the day is
probably coming when you will be able to download those one or two songs, in
a NON compressed format without DRM, and skip the others.


Quote:
He should've stood up for himself and put Parker in his place. Like I
said above, given he knew how badly Parker had mangled his career. I
think it's a possibility he just couldn't trust others to do better.

I disagree, a good manager simply arranges for you the *choice* of gigs, and
let's you decide which ones you will do. The better the artist, the bigger
the choice, and there were few who will ever have the choices Elvis had, or
*could* have had.


Quote:
He should've took the chance and allowed the chips to fall where they
would've fell. As a manager, Parker did some good things for Elvis

I'm not convinced, just as Brian Epstein didn't do much for the Beatles.
They were better off after he died. Pity Tom Parker didn't die around the
same time!


Quote:
he also did some lousy things, like never getting Elvis an increase on
the artist royalty or getting him a producer's royalty, and the lousy
Vegas shows at two shows per night at even lousier pay. It was once
said Parker considered it his patriotic duty to keep Elvis's income in
the five to seven million dollars per year, but I think Parker may
have been just a little too gutless to ask for a whole lot more money,
even though, his client deserved it more than any other artist.

Exactly, so how is a manager that gets you lousy gigs at less money than you
can easily command, worth keeping?


Quote:
I think a lot of people like to think they are cool but if they have
to let someone else decide for them what they can or can't like,
they're mindless idiots and should go home and bang their heads hard
against the wall. Maybe then they'd have enlightenment ;-p

I totally agree, but we are in the minority it would seem.


Quote:
ABBA got another nod from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame but I don't
think this is going to be their year, again. ABBA has some support
from a lot of rock legends, so that helps with acceptance. You can't
really knock an act if another act or artist acknowledge themselves as
fans of that act.

Which is why I always loved the fact that the Beatles didn't put the Monkees
down when everyone else was.


TonyP.
 
catgod29 at (no spam) home_on_the_range.com...
Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:08 pm
Guest
Quote:
That will always be true, and also depends on what stations you listen to.
And the big question is, did they really deserve to do better anyway?

Maybe a handful of acts deserved to do better, but most probably just
deserved the one or two hits they had before disappearing.

Quote:
Yeah, the concept of rating songs differently when they could not be bought
seperately, was amazingly stupid. But hey, what else would you expect from
the recording industry, and radio stations? Smile

I think the only reason Billboard stopped showing a chart position for
a B-side and replacing it with the F was because of Elvis almost being
the only one still doing it in the 70s. One artist suggested in the
liner notes of a reissue that a B-side charting hurt the A-side's
chart position, because Billboard split the sales and airplay figures
for the 45. I don't know if there was anything to that argument since
Elvis and the Beatles made it to number one plenty of times with the B-
side of a 45 charting at a lower position. But, I still think if the B-
side was being played and accounting for sales, if the A-side made it
to number one, the B-side should've been a number one as well. Or
whatever chart position the 45 made it to.

Quote:
Yes, allowing the companies to make money from the artist by pressing too
many records was asking for trouble. The artist usually had little say in
the exercise, and were talked into it by the suggestion they would lose
sales if the public had to wait while more were pressed. Since a good record
will sell for years or even decades, it's a poor admission of lousy lead
times at the pressing plants IMO.

Since a recording contract is a legal document, I'd guess the artists
would trust their lawyers to pore over the terms of the contract and
look for potential boobytraps like the artists being financially
responsible for overpressing. But, the fact so many artists got stuck
with having to pay for overpressings suggest their lawyers (and maybe
their managers) didn't do their jobs very well. Part of the make up
for the suggested retail price should've included buyback costs, if it
didn't already include such a figure. Probably did but the record
companies couldn't bear to part with even that money.

Quote:
Or even a not so huge one. But companies could, and did, prevent artists
from recording with any other company while they were under contract. So if
they didn't release your album, or didn't promote it, the artist often had
to buy out their contract, or wait until it expired before they could
release a new record.

From the few recording contract examples I've seen, that's usually the
case. However, the contracts also usually give the artists the right
to terminate the terms of the contract if the record company violated
the terms of the contract in some way. IMost of the record companies
know they're not going to stop an artist from leaving for another
label, but rather than parting amicably, they make the artist fight
for their independence. I sometimes wonder what would've happened if
Nez had gave RCA notice halfway through his contracted term, wanting
to sign with another label? He wasn't a big moneymaker for their
label, so would they have been generous and allowed him to leave? Or
would they have forced him to fulfill his contractual obligations?

Quote:
Maybe, but only IF they can afford the legal fees.

Almost all artists signed to a record company have legal
representation, and if they've been successful, I rather imagine they
have enough money to pay the legal fees. The artists who were modestly
successful or unsuccessful might not have the money for legal fees,
but I couldn't see a record company wanting to hang on to an artist
who wasn't making money for the label. Why spend the money fighting to
keep an artist like that? Course, that attitude was more prevalent in
the 50s, 60s and 70s -- from the 80s on up to now, if you're not a
success, you're dropped. Find yourself another label.

Quote:
Not unless it breaches a specified agreement. The simple fact is most
artists in the 50's, 60's 70's were far too eager to sign lousy contracts,
and only discovered they should have had better advice after it was too
late. The situation was so bad that is fairly well known now, and newer
artists are trapped far less often.

Sometimes, you'd have a rarity of a record company that did live up to
the terms of its contract with the artist, and the artist will still
complain of being cheated. I recall reading a story/interview on some
R&B artist from the 50s, who complained of being cheated of royalties
by her record label, despite the fact that in the 50s, she received
about $50,000 in artist royalties. I can't recall the name of the
singer or her single but assuming she had a million selling single and
the average artist royalty for the time (five cents), she wasn't
cheated. Maybe she thought her album and the rest of her records all
sold as well as the hit she had, but the story indicated she never had
another recording that sold. Pretty hard to be owed money for
nonexistent sales.

Quote:
Of course not, it was only because Parker was so bad, that Elvis was stupid
in not getting rid of him.

Parker had a strategy whereby if Elvis did try and dump him, such a
move would've cost Elvis a lot of money to make it happen. When Elvis
reportedly fired Parker in '73 during a heated argument in Vegas,
Parker retreated to his suite and started adding up the figures on the
money Elvis owed him. Never mind that Col. Greed was already taking
between a third and half of Elvis's income and Elvis had always
allowed the commissions to be paid without objection. Parker still
came up with additional charges Elvis would have to pay to break free.
The figure was rumored to be two million dollars and it was said
another manager had been alerted to the possibility of taking over
Elvis's management, but in the end, it was Elvis's father who talked
Elvis out of dumping Parker. Elvis was prepared to pay Parker off but
his dad couldn't bear the thought of Elvis spending a couple of
millions to be rid of Parker once and for all. As some had suggested,
Elvis's lawyers could've made mincemeat of the additional charges but
his dad didn't even want Elvis spending the money for a court fight.

Quote:
And I always say anyone who thinks like that deserves what they get. Fact is
the artist always has the last say no matter what the manager *tries* to
sign him up for. The artists signature is still required, and he has the
right to say no, unless he has an even more ridiculous contract with his
manager that gives them absolute discretion. In which case it is once again
the artists fault for signing *that* contract.

Again, Parker initially did some good things for Elvis in the 50s. He
got Elvis a high for the time artist royalty rate (according to court
documents, eleven cents per single and fifty cents per album), set up
the publishing companies -- a good source of revenue, high fees for
the movies plus a percentage of the profits. Other singers trying
their acting chops in movies never were paid as well as Elvis nor were
their movies anywhere near as good. For all the bad that's said about
Elvis's movies, if anyone thinks they were bad, they should watch the
movies made by his peers. The majority were bad enough to give "Plan 9
from Outer Space" a run for its title as worst movie ever made.

But, it was when Parker started failing Elvis's artistry that Elvis
should've had a face to face showdown, and told Parker what he wanted
to do as an artist and that his job was to make those goals happen.
But, Elvis wasn't the confrontational type and Parker knew that, so he
ran the show without too much interference from Elvis.

Quote:
So many people blame others for their bad choices, but frankly I get sick of
hearing their whining. I've made my own bad choices, but I live with them,
and I don't have the money for a raft of legal advice like Elvis did, before
he signed anything!

You're right but we all have people around us who advise us to think
this way or that way about our choices. Sometimes, we ask them for
advice because we don't know what to do or they give out the advice
without being asked. And when we make our decisions, was it our
decisions or the influence of those around us? Ultimately, we're still
responsible for what we decided but if advice was given and our
decision was based on that advice, those giving the advice share in
the responsibility of the outcome, whether good or bad.

Quote:
Allowing for inflation, he was (in todays money) even before he died. The
estate is worth even more now of course.

Elvis placed fourth this year in Forbes's list of wealthiest deceased
celebrities, earning a reported $55 million over the past year. I
don't know how much of that are from record royalties, since the March
31, 1973 buyout of his recordings made before that date by RCA, meant
the label didn't have to pay any further royalties. Another brilliant
managerial decision by Col. Greed!

Quote:
Me either. But very few people that rich are not hypocrits. Had to laugh
when Heather Mills took half his money, he must have been the only one who
didn't see that coming Smile

She didn't quite get half of what Sir Paul had made but she made out
all right. But, he definitely must've been the only one that didn't
see what could happen without a pre-nuptial contract. I think he
learned his lesson though, a pretty painful one at whatever it cost
him financially.

Quote:
Sure, you can arrange contracts to achieve almost anything, BUT they still
have to be signed.

I wonder how close they looked at those contracts? I'm assuming the
contracts were all in legalese and that they had -- or should've had
-- their own set of lawyers looking over the terms of the contracts.
But, all of us sign contracts without looking at the terms of the
contract, which is something we shouldn't do. We should all read our
contracts before we sign them.

Quote:
I doubt it unfortunately, I don't think they generate many sales.

Very unlikely to generate a lot of sales as the albums are for the
most part (in the US) released on a vanity label without a major label
distributor. That makes it hard to get her albums in the stores. What
I have of Melanie's recent stuff has come solely from mail order.
Melanie's website offers downloads on many of her recordings but some
of the albums are missing in action, especially some of the later
ones. The ones I would like to have. :-/

Quote:
Made the top 40 in Australia on the back of her tour. I sure WISH she'd come
back again!

I'd like to see her but she doesn't do that many dates in the US. I
wish she'd appear at some of the casinos that are close by where I'd
live.

Quote:
I'm not so sure. While I loved *many* of her songs, she just didn't appeal
to the masses that much after "Candle in the Rain" unfortunately.

Well, here in the US, I think Melanie lost the masses after "Brand New
Key," which made it to number one, better than the chart showing for
"Lay Down (Candles in the Rain)." Some of her records, like "Bitter
Bad" and "Perceive It" should've done better but some of her
post-"Brand New Key"/"Gather Me" recordings weren't very accessible,
commercially speaking.

Quote:
And Melanie was absolutely
foxy, looking more gorgeous and sexy than she looked in the early
70s.

I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, but she has certainly aged very well!
Smile

Well, she was only 31 when she made those videos, which is still a
young person in my eyes.

Quote:
Mindy McCready
You'd think she has plenty of material for new songs then! Smile or should
that be Sad

In Mindy's case, :-(

Quote:
Yep, not everyone can, or wants to appeal to the masses for top40 sales. A
good performer can live off their concerts and small volume record sales for
the rest of their life however, and it sure beats digging ditches IMO.

That's what many old rock and rollers of the 50s and 60s discovered in
the 70s when golden oldies suddenly became big business. Had it not
become big business, I think we never would've seen all the cd
reissues on almost everybody.

Quote:
I really doubt that will happen, but who knows, Emmylou Harris only started
fairly late in her career, and she's done a couple of albums of her own
stuff. I certainly wouldn't put money on Linda writing many now though!

I've got my doubts it will happen either. What it probably would take
is Linda sitting down with someone to write the songs. I don't think
Linda writes the music, just the lyrics, so she'd have to work with
someone who could come up with the music. I think someone would have
to approach Linda with the idea of writing all of the songs for an
album of hers, but I don't think it's an idea that has occurred to
anyone around Linda to approach her about doing. And I don't think
Linda messes with computers or reads the newsgroups, so she's unlikely
to read our musings...or anyone else's, for that matter.

Quote:
I've got the Live in Atlanta one on VHS, is that the one you mean? It's
available on DVD bootlegs if you want it.
Great concert!

I'm not sure. I think the poster mentions the video is from Germany
but I'll have to look again. Some of Linda's other songs from the
"Hasten Down the Wind" album also have videos. The sound quality for
"Hasten Down the Wind" is very poor but I don't know if the video was
like that originally, or if it was just the poster's copy. The other
HDTW songs are okay, sound wise. But, any of that footage could've
been for her television special. And what a shame to not have shown it
or released it officially. But, maybe there was a reason for it not
being released.

Quote:
The Johnny Cash & Linda 'Behind Prison Walls" is available on DVD though,
she does 4 songs.

That special plays on the RFD cable channel every so often. I remember
watching it way back in '73 but had forgotten about it until seeing it
again on the RFD channel. I've heard Linda was very nervous about
doing the show, even with the security, but did the show anyway.

Quote:
No unfortunately, but that "duet" that was put together of them singing
"Love Me Tender" was pretty good.

I've never heard that duet but it was said Linda's version was in the
same key as Elvis's original version, so that made it an ideal match.
Both RCA and Asylum wanted to release the duet officially but each
label wanted to be the one releasing the record. Neither label could
come to terms so the bootleg 45 was the only release. Pity. Some other
bright souls got the idea to team Elvis with other artists on songs
both had done but the results were messy and in most cases, Elvis's
version and the other artist's version were in different keys, so the
final result sounded horrible.

Quote:
Of course it would have been even better if the did a film together, then we
may have had some duets like Elvis did with Ann Margret and Nancy Sinatra.
Parker would have agreed to that I imagine.

Pity Linda wasn't approached for the Marilyn Mason role in "The
Trouble with Girls (And How to Get Into It)." That movie would've made
for a good pairing of the two. Mason was pretty good herself in a very
untypical Elvis movie but I think the sparks would've flown between
Elvis and Linda.

Quote:
No argument from me, I'd simply have seperate charts for each genre, *and*
an overall sales chart for everything. The problem still remains on who
publishes what, and who cares. Total sales figures, Gold and Platinum
accreditation ignore genre anyway, and are a better indicator IMO.

Excellent points.

Quote:
Yes, I've seen it on YouTube.

Another video of Linda on the Johnny Cash Show has surfaced on
youtube, another performance of "Long, Long Time." It's live but very
similar to the studio recording. Additional strings, more harpsichord
and you can hear the occasional steel guitar. Linda's vocal delivery
is similar to the performance on the Bobby Darin special. As
compelling a performance by Linda as any of the song.

Quote:
Exactly, they aren't "giving away" anything, they are SELLING it!
It's the "extortion racket" that I hate!

One also has to go on the possibility there isn't a lot of unreleased
material sitting in the archives. It's said most of what remains
unreleased on the Monkees are unfinished tracks. It would be
interesting to hear the unfinished tracks and get the feel for what
possibilities those tracks might've had had they been completed. Maybe
Rhino will make some of the tunes available on the rest of the deluxe
reissues, if they get around to them. (Hey! Rhino! Where are the rest
of those deluxe reissues?)

Quote:
Exactly, and they know it. They just want to generate a few more sales from
desperate fans.

Yes and most unfortunate, the wait time between releases just make the
crazy crazier. Rhino didn't spend as long in the 90s reissuing all of
the Monkees's original albums on cd, but it's been three years since
the deluxe editions of "Headquarters" and "Pisces..." The deluxe
editions for "The Birds, the Bees and the Monkees" and "Head"
should've already been released by now. If they ever get around to
releasing them -- which I don't think is going to happen --I've sort
of wondered what they would do for the deluxe edition of the "Head"
soundtrack? Mono and stereo versions of the songs and alternate takes
aside, releasing more bits from the movie wouldn't be a good idea,
imo. Additional songs recorded for the movie but not used, such as
Davy's song, "Changes," would be okay. Or the songs performed at the
Salt Lake City concert.

Quote:
Of course not, but just as with the "Essential" seies, it's only a name. Who
cares whether it's called "Best of", "Greatest Hits", "Essential",
"Definitive Collection", or *any* other name. You buy the songs, and if I
want enough of them to justify the price, I don't mind if there are
"extras". The days of me buying an album for one or two new songs is gone
though. I just get annoyed now, but live with it. Thankfully the day is
probably coming when you will be able to download those one or two songs, in
a NON compressed format without DRM, and skip the others.

Eh, you've got a good point but the issue here is that when a record
company released a "Greatest Hits" or "Best Of" or whatever a
compilation album was called, they didn't release 100s of compilation
albums by 100s of different artists all at once. "Essential," "36 All
Time Greatest Hits" and "Definitive Collection" have been on overkill
when used as a title in this country. I'd forgotten about the
"Definitive Collection" series here. Everything about that series
suggests shoddy and put together on the cheap, and not a lot of care
put into what went on those albums. Just another sad excuse for your
bucks.


Quote:
I disagree, a good manager simply arranges for you the *choice* of gigs, and
let's you decide which ones you will do. The better the artist, the bigger
the choice, and there were few who will ever have the choices Elvis had, or
*could* have had.

That's why Parker was a bad manager. He committed Elvis to the movies
or to the concerts without input from Elvis, and without letting Elvis
decide if he wanted to do them. Things were good at the beginning but
during the mid-60s when Parker's artistic decisions on Elvis's behalf
started becoming destructive to that artistry, Elvis had been with
Parker for so long that he might only have been able to wonder if
someone else could've done better for him. When your trust has been
eroded to the degree that Elvis's trust in Parker had been eroded, it
makes it harder to trust someone else to come in and take over the
job. Still, Elvis should've pulled the plug on Parker, but I don't
think he could trust anyone else.

Quote:
I'm not convinced, just as Brian Epstein didn't do much for the
Beatles.
They were better off after he died. Pity Tom Parker didn't die around the
same time!

That, or immigration discovered Parker's illegal status early on in
the 50s and deported him.

Quote:
Exactly, so how is a manager that gets you lousy gigs at less money than you
can easily command, worth keeping?

Such a manager isn't worth keeping but Elvis was far from being the
only celebrity with a worthless manager. Some were even worse. It was
alleged in a news story in 1971 that Davy had three managers who took
all of his money and left him penniless. Given part of Davy's issue
with the record companies and Screen Gems TV/Columbia Pictures has
involved questions of being owed money, I'd say it's a pretty good bet
he had managers who took his money but did very little for that
career.

Quote:
Which is why I always loved the fact that the Beatles didn't put the Monkees
down when everyone else was.

Which was absolutely bizarre. Everyone looked to the Beatles for what
they considered cool, and the Beatles's acknowledging the Monkees and
treating them with respect should've ended the put downs from others.
As was said, the public could be forgiven for their put downs as they
were unaware of what went on behind the scenes, but it was less easy
to forgive their peers and rock media people who knew what went on,
yet still put them down. For people who considered themselves cool,
that coolness was pretty hypocritical.
 
 
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