Nez was not gonna endear himself to folks in Nashville with song titles
like 'Propinquity", "Carlisle Wheeling", and "The Crippled Lion". Mike's
take on country music was less commercial than what was typically coming
out of Nashville in those days. His more accessible material like
"Joanne" and "Silver Moon" obviously did well, but Nez was never the
type to say "I'm gonna write 10 more songs just like the ones that were
successful".

And yet Songs like "Bonaparte's Retreat", "Talking to the Wall", "She
Thinks
I still Care", were pure country

"Talking to the Wall" was more of a pop song than country song,

Yeah the Eagles were not able to sell Country/Folk/Rock either were they

Probably just as well they weren't on RCA I guess. However Elvis was big
enough to do Country/Rock there.

Actually, the Eagles had success with their first single and album,
and that success would continue right on up through their break up and
continue on through their reunion, right up to today.

You're spot on about what the labels want of every artist. Most people
and even the artists don't get that the record companies are in the
business to make money by the selling of the music.

But, their failure
in selling lesser artists isn't because they don't know how, more than
it's a case of not having the money to properly promote every artist
signed to their label.

Some of the artists signed to a record label
may only be on the label because someone at their label doesn't expect
them to sell, but likes them enough to sign them to the label. Artists
with no expectation of getting any hits should have their artist
royalty exempt from being used to repay the record company for the
costs associated with the recording, manufacturing and distribution of
their recordings. Those recordings are likely charged off the record
company's taxes, another reason they shouldn't be allowed to stick it
to the artist, but that is never going to happen either.

And yet Songs like "Bonaparte's Retreat", "Talking to the Wall", "She
Thinks I still Care", were pure country

"Talking to the Wall" was more of a pop song than country song,

Yeah the Eagles were not able to sell Country/Folk/Rock either were
they
Probably just as well they weren't on RCA I guess. However Elvis was big
enough to do Country/Rock there.

Actually, the Eagles had success with their first single and album,
and that success would continue right on up through their break up and
continue on through their reunion, right up to today.

You're spot on about what the labels want of every artist. Most people
and even the artists don't get that the record companies are in the
business to make money by the selling of the music.

But, their failure
in selling lesser artists isn't because they don't know how, more than
it's a case of not having the money to properly promote every artist
signed to their label.

Some of the artists signed to a record label
may only be on the label because someone at their label doesn't expect
them to sell, but likes them enough to sign them to the label. Artists
with no expectation of getting any hits should have their artist
royalty exempt from being used to repay the record company for the
costs associated with the recording, manufacturing and distribution of
their recordings. Those recordings are likely charged off the record
company's taxes, another reason they shouldn't be allowed to stick it
to the artist, but that is never going to happen either.

catgo... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message

news:26272bf1-f5d1-4b63-9300-9e325ec730cc at (no spam) o32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

And yet Songs like "Bonaparte's Retreat", "Talking to the Wall", "She
Thinks I still Care", were pure country

"Talking to the Wall" was more of a pop song than country song,

It was done by many other country artists before Mike Nesmith.

Yeah the Eagles were not able to sell Country/Folk/Rock either were
they
Probably just as well they weren't on RCA I guess. However Elvis was big
enough to do Country/Rock there.

Actually, the Eagles had success with their first single and album,
and that success would continue right on up through their break up and
continue on through their reunion, right up to today.

You do realise the smiley was there to indicate sarcasm??

You're spot on about what the labels want of every artist. Most people
and even the artists don't get that the record companies are in the
business to make money by the selling of the music.

Oh I think most people realise well enough they are in it for the money.

But, their failure
in selling lesser artists isn't because they don't know how, more than
it's a case of not having the money to properly promote every artist
signed to their label.

Depends on what you call proper promotion. Smaller selling artists simply
require lower cost promotion to maximise the money left after expenses.
The problem is when they spend millions to try and make a minor artist into
a major one, and fail!

Some of the artists signed to a record label
may only be on the label because someone at their label doesn't expect
them to sell, but likes them enough to sign them to the label. Artists
with no expectation of getting any hits should have their artist
royalty exempt from being used to repay the record company for the
costs associated with the recording, manufacturing and distribution of
their recordings. Those recordings are likely charged off the record
company's taxes, another reason they shouldn't be allowed to stick it
to the artist, but that is never going to happen either.

Yep, most labels would sign artists simply because there was no real risk in
it for them, with clauses that the artists didn't fully appreciate.
It went on so long that most artists are more aware of what they sign these
days. And plenty of lawyers now specialise in contract law for musicians.

TonyP.

"Talking to the Wall" was more of a pop song than country song,

It was done by many other country artists before Mike Nesmith.

You do realise the smiley was there to indicate sarcasm??

Oh I think most people realise well enough they are in it for the money.

Depends on what you call proper promotion. Smaller selling artists simply
require lower cost promotion to maximise the money left after expenses.
The problem is when they spend millions to try and make a minor artist into
a major one, and fail!

Yep, most labels would sign artists simply because there was no real risk in
it for them, with clauses that the artists didn't fully appreciate.
It went on so long that most artists are more aware of what they sign these
days. And plenty of lawyers now specialise in contract law for musicians.

BMI doesn't have a listing of artists having done Bill and John
Chadwick's song "Talking to the Wall." No listing for Nez having done
the song or Bill himself. BMI does list other songs with the same
title and some of those titles do have listings for country artists,
such as Loretta Lynn. I'd like to know who else has done Bill and
John's song, besides Bill and Nez (who produced both versions), as
it's one of my favorite tunes.

You do realise the smiley was there to indicate sarcasm??

Actually, didn't catch that although I should have, but it's been a
very stressful week.

I'm back in school learning a new career and my
house was broken into and some of my personal belongings were stolen.

Oh I think most people realise well enough they are in it for the money.

People who care deeply about the music realize the labels are in it
for the money, but many others don't know and/or don't care. Some of
them make the assumption that all the artists are wealthy, making
money off their recordings when in fact some of us might be wealthier
than the artists we listen to.

Proper promotion is getting the artist heard and seen, something which
seems to require spending a large sum of money in order to make any
song a hit. It's not really a question of an artist being a minor
artist.

All artists start off in the minor leagues but who decides
which artists will go on to become the superstars, what sets them
apart from the other artists is the mystery. Maybe it's a question of
having the right manager or right record label executive to see talent
that's developing into something big. Of course, with the Monkees,
television was very instrumental in their rise to fame, something
which the music media didn't see as a proper source for promoting an
artist, at least on a weekly basis.

Of course, the music executives
had been using TV to promote rock artists from the very start, so why
it took ten years to fully realize television's true potential as a
marketing tool for rock,

maybe those record label executives weren't
as smart as they thought they were?

True, although these days, it's still not unusual for a record company
to try and pull some fast ones on the artists. They're still in there
trying to have the artists pay for the production and promotion costs,
unsold copies of recordings, you name it, the labels will keep trying
to figure out a way to keep the artist's royalties. And that's
something which shouldn't be allowed to happen.

No way were the Partridge Family anywhere near as big as the Monkees as
record sellers.

As Mike once said, "I'm about to go on stage in front of 10,000 people,
if I can't play my own instrument, I'm in a lot of trouble!"

Did someone say they were?

And he was wrong of course. Many artists can't play an instrument or write a
song. Doesn't stop me saying Linda Ronstadt is my favourite female artist.
And Elvis Presley admits he wasn't a great musician, although he did play
guitar and piano better than many. Still not enough for him to bother all
that often on stage, and hardly ever on record.

In fact the Monkees often used a backing band as well (and not just on
record), even more so after Mike left of course.
Even the Beatles were happy to use other musicians when it suited them. The
Monkees just got a bad rap from those who resented their popularity. I
always countered by saying the Beatles didn't, so why should I

My previous comments should not be interpreted as a diss of the
Partridge Family as a tv show or recording project. I enjoyed their
music, but it's nowhere near the Monkees in terms of wanting to hear it
over and over again. Cassidy is a good singer, but strikes me as a bit
big headed regarding his own success.

Re: Elvis as a musician - I think the reason he didn't play much guitar on stage was he liked to be free
to roam the stage, shake hands with the front row, kiss the pretty girls, etc.

Elvis was an excellent rhythm guitarist, though. Johnny Cash
says so in his autobiography "Cash". Most of the Sun sides don't have a
drummer, it's really Elvis' rhythm guitar driving those songs. Anyone
who's seen the sitdown portion of his '68 tv special knows he could make
that guitar rock when he wanted to.

And he had some of the best lead
players in the business. Scotty Moore, along with Carl Perkins and Chuck
Berry, pretty much layed down the ground rules for rock and roll guitar
on those early RCA and Sun sides. James Burton is possibly the greatest
country and rock guitar player ever, he played with Elvis from '69
onward, but before that, he was Rick Nelson's guitarist, and also played
with the Shindig house band. Watch any concert video of Elvis, and you
can see him work the band. He knew how to get the best out of his
musicians.

My expectation of a concert event is that I want to hear the artist
sing. I don't want to hear the artist lip syncing their hits.

If they're going to do that, why even bother appearing in concert?

Miming
is being too lazy and any artist doing so shouldn't expect their fans
to pay out hundreds of bucks potentially just to see the artist fake
it.

Rolling Stone publisher-editor Jann Wenner has always knocked the
Monkees for not playing on their recordings, yet where is he and his
rag on this issue, which is far worse than the Monkees not playing on
their records?

Damn! I wish I were that lucky! Getting paid to go to concerts.

Another thing I've noticed disappearing from the concert events here
is the disappearance of an opening act. Not that that was much of a
loss as the opening acts here tended to be local acts hired by the
headliner, who didn't want to be upstaged by another popular artist.
In the 70s, the Carpenters took oldie Neil Sedaka as their opening act
and more people were apparently interested in Neil than in the
Carpenters. I'm not sure why that was but afterwards, the Carpenters
were a little more careful as to who opened for them.

Milli Vannilli had to give the Grammy back once it was discovered they
were not the voices heard on the recording.

It was surprising Milli
Vannilli garnered a Grammy as although the songs weren't bad, the
Grammy should've gone to the man who sang them.

Their record label
should also have fessed up at the beginning that the group didn't
actually exist, but was the label penalized in any way for
contributing to the fraud? Or were the two MV guys the only ones who
were thrown to the wolves, as though it was all their fault?

True, but the nature of the beast that was and is the record industry
was the artists had to be successful to remain on the record labels.
Nez once expressed surprise in the 70s that RCA still allowed him to
record, even though he hadn't produced any further big hits after
"Joanne."

Maybe RCA kept hoping he'd come up with something. Warners
was another label in the 60s and 70s, where an artist could be a *loss
leader* and still remain with the label. Warners used to offer cheap
mail order compilation albums on the inner sleeve, offering tracks
from the *loss leaders.* That offered you a chance to hear what you
were missing for whatever reason you were not hearing the artists.
Maybe Warners couldn't get the radio stations to play the tunes. And
it was a real pity they discontinued offering those cheap albums.

That he did but I think his problem was that as a teen idol, he
eventually wore thin with the kids who bought his recordings. And he
had zero appeal as an artist with everyone else because of that teen
idol status.

He'd probably would like to have had album sales like the
Monkees had, but too much of the PF and Cassidy music was too
lightweight to be timeless.

One advantage I could see to downloads is the artists could make more
tunes available than could fit on a single cd. Most artists record
more than enough songs for a single album but whatever doesn't go on
the album or is made available as a B-side, just sits on a shelf in
some warehouse, unlikely to ever be heard. That may be a good thing
but sometimes, it's just the wrong thing to do to a song.

My previous comments should not be interpreted as a diss of the
Partridge Family as a tv show or recording project. I enjoyed their
music, but it's nowhere near the Monkees in terms of wanting to hear it
over and over again. Cassidy is a good singer, but strikes me as a bit
big headed regarding his own success. Re: Elvis as a musician - I think
the reason he didn't play much guitar on stage was he liked to be free
to roam the stage, shake hands with the front row, kiss the pretty
girls, etc. Elvis was an excellent rhythm guitarist, though. Johnny Cash
says so in his autobiography "Cash". Most of the Sun sides don't have a
drummer, it's really Elvis' rhythm guitar driving those songs. Anyone
who's seen the sitdown portion of his '68 tv special knows he could make
that guitar rock when he wanted to.

And he had some of the best lead
players in the business. Scotty Moore, along with Carl Perkins and Chuck
Berry, pretty much layed down the ground rules for rock and roll guitar
on those early RCA and Sun sides. James Burton is possibly the greatest
country and rock guitar player ever, he played with Elvis from '69
onward, but before that, he was Rick Nelson's guitarist, and also played
with the Shindig house band.

That's probably the reason. But, I also think he may have been
intimidated by some of the other guitarists who played on his sessions
and James Burton on stage.

Another possibility is that Elvis may have
given up the guitar following a death threat against him in Vegas.
Someone managed to get a photo of him to him with a circle drawn
around his heart, along with a drawing of a gun and the words "Guess
who and where?" or something like that. Playing his electric guitar
kept his on stage movements limited but not so the acoustic guitar,
but maybe he just didn't want to take any chances that something could
restrict his ability to successfully get away, if need be.

That he could. Elvis knew what he wanted to hear in the songs he was
performing, from the musicians to the backing vocalists. Others got
the credit for producing and arranging his songs, but that was on the
technical side. He was really the first rock artist to produce himself
and arrange his material,

but in one of the biggest gaffes in his
manager's career, Parker didn't demand a producer's royalty and
arranger's royalty for Elvis.

As the majority of MMers say, Elvis
deserved a producer's royalty. The people who "produced" his sessions
were A&R supervisors who oversaw the technical side of the production,
but who (with the exception of Chet Atkins) had nothing to do with the
creative side. And no outside arrangers were used then but I'm not
sure if arrangers were eligible for royalties in the 50s and 60s.

In
the 70s and later, seems like everyone connected with a recording,
whether an engineer, producer, arrangers, musicians were eligible for
royalties in addition to the artist. That was one reason why the
prices of albums kept going up: everyone had a piece of the pie!