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Movies Forum Index » Movie Production (Sound) Forum » Cannon XLR adapter..
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| rIO |
 Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 2:32 am |
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I have an XL1 camcorder, now I got under my hands a very nice shotgun mic to
use on set (admit it the one that ships with the XL1 isn't useable at all).
The problem is that the mic has a cannon /XLR adapter (3 poles, passive) and
the XL1 has only the RCA in plugs.
I saw the Ma-100, or above, asdapters from Canon but they are quite too
expensive because as far as I know building a converter from CANNON to RCA
it's quite simple.
Is there anything I don't know that makes impossible to just solder some
cables and create a CANNON to RCA adapter for the mic ?
Do someone knows a palce where to find electric schemas (I should know how
to do it, but a confirmation could be nice) or some more information ??
Thanks is advance.
--
rIO.sK
www.officineitalia.it |
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| Oleg Kaizerman |
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 3:14 am |
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what shot gun ,??
--
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland
"rIO" <rio@spittingpimps.org> wrote in message
news:c8208b$pdj$1@fata.cs.interbusiness.it...
Quote: I have an XL1 camcorder, now I got under my hands a very nice shotgun mic
to
use on set (admit it the one that ships with the XL1 isn't useable at
all).
The problem is that the mic has a cannon /XLR adapter (3 poles, passive)
and
the XL1 has only the RCA in plugs.
I saw the Ma-100, or above, asdapters from Canon but they are quite too
expensive because as far as I know building a converter from CANNON to RCA
it's quite simple.
Is there anything I don't know that makes impossible to just solder some
cables and create a CANNON to RCA adapter for the mic ?
Do someone knows a palce where to find electric schemas (I should know how
to do it, but a confirmation could be nice) or some more information ??
Thanks is advance.
--
rIO.sK
www.officineitalia.it
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| rIO |
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 6:18 am |
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An AKG but i think the model isn't important... it's a passive one, the
longer of the two shotgun they produce...
Can u answer me ??
--
rIO.sK |
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| Oleg Kaizerman |
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 6:54 am |
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does it have internal battery power or it have to be supply with 12-48 v ph
?
"rIO" <rio@spittingpimps.org> wrote in message
news:c82dhc$arn$1@grillo.cs.interbusiness.it...
Quote: what shot gun ,??
An AKG but i think the model isn't important... it's a passive one, the
longer of the two shotgun they produce...
Can u answer me ??
--
rIO.sK
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| Richard Crowley |
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 9:00 am |
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Oleg Kaizerman wrote...
"rIO" wrote ...
Quote: An AKG but i think the model isn't important... it's a passive one, the
longer of the two shotgun they produce...
Can u answer me ??
It would likely be *much* easier with an actual model number,
even if you you don't think it is necessary. I suspect that there
are more AKG shotgun models than you are aware of. Your
notion of "passive" may not be correct.
Note that RCA jacks very commonly imply "line-level"
input/output. Or do you really mean "mini-phone" (3.5mm)
connectors (commonly used for mic inputs on consumer stuff.)
On one of my web pages, namely...
http://www.rcrowley.com/CamAdapt.htm
I show several common wiring schemes for adapting XLR
mics to consumemr camcorders.
However Oleg's question about requiring 48V phantom
power will be a show-stoper if your mic requires it. |
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| Jay Rose CAS |
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 11:18 am |
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Get the current (May) issue of DV Magazine. There's an article that
explains all of the options, their costs and pros/cons, and how to choose
which to use.
You can wire a simple adapter, discussed in the article, but it's not
recommended because the cable isn't balanced so you don't get protection
against noise pickup, and it doesn't provide phantom (which every AKG gun
for the last few decades requires).
The article covers balanced solutions starting at $50. Some of the cheap
ones also provide phantom.
--
Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom
Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design
Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com |
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| Oleg Kaizerman |
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 12:52 pm |
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buy a soundman , its cheaper 
the model of your mike please
--
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland
"Jay Rose CAS" <SEE-SIGFILE@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:SEE-SIGFILE-1405041318490001@192.168.1.100...
Quote: Get the current (May) issue of DV Magazine. There's an article that
explains all of the options, their costs and pros/cons, and how to choose
which to use.
You can wire a simple adapter, discussed in the article, but it's not
recommended because the cable isn't balanced so you don't get protection
against noise pickup, and it doesn't provide phantom (which every AKG gun
for the last few decades requires).
The article covers balanced solutions starting at $50. Some of the cheap
ones also provide phantom.
--
Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom
Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design
Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com |
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| Brian McDonald |
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 3:06 pm |
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The MA-100 is tricky because it is xlr and takes a mic level signal
and tries to adapt it to a system that expects line level. The most
common problem is changing the Audio 1 setting to mic or mic att in
the system menu as well as the physical switch behind the audio access
door.
I have had more luck using an external mixer (the way most do) and
feeding it via the RCA inputs. When it comes down to it, I would
rather output a line level signal from my mixer than run through a
system designed for consumer grade microphones. If the thought of a
mixer sounds too expensive, think about a low cost battery powered
unit like the Behringer MXB1002. It runs about $100 and has XLR and
1/4" unputs as well as phantom power. While it is not the best mixer
in the world, it will definitly give you a better result that
controling the mic level from the XL1's "pre amp"
As for your mic, I assuming since you mention XLR and AKG, it probably
need phantom power.
-Brian |
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| Oleg Kaizerman |
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 3:53 pm |
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I don't think that xl even have line inputs on rca , its more like hot mike
level input -30dbv (?) , the ma is only passive xlr connectors with 20 db
att
but maybe I wrong , last time I worked with that camera was about 18 months
ago
--
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland
--
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland
"Brian McDonald" <brian@framesforward.com> wrote in message
news:807484b8.0405141306.210ee37d@posting.google.com...
Quote: The MA-100 is tricky because it is xlr and takes a mic level signal
and tries to adapt it to a system that expects line level. The most
common problem is changing the Audio 1 setting to mic or mic att in
the system menu as well as the physical switch behind the audio access
door.
I have had more luck using an external mixer (the way most do) and
feeding it via the RCA inputs. When it comes down to it, I would
rather output a line level signal from my mixer than run through a
system designed for consumer grade microphones. If the thought of a
mixer sounds too expensive, think about a low cost battery powered
unit like the Behringer MXB1002. It runs about $100 and has XLR and
1/4" unputs as well as phantom power. While it is not the best mixer
in the world, it will definitly give you a better result that
controling the mic level from the XL1's "pre amp"
As for your mic, I assuming since you mention XLR and AKG, it probably
need phantom power.
-Brian |
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| Kurt Albershardt |
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 4:19 pm |
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Brian McDonald wrote:
Quote: The MA-100 is tricky because it is xlr and takes a mic level signal
and tries to adapt it to a system that expects line level. The most
common problem is changing the Audio 1 setting to mic or mic att in
the system menu as well as the physical switch behind the audio access
door.
BeachTek now offers a box with preamps and phantom, but I don't know how much it costs http://www.beachtek.com/dxa8.html |
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| Jay Rose CAS |
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 6:58 pm |
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Quote: I don't think that xl even have line inputs on rca , its more like hot mike
level input -30dbv (?) , the ma is only passive xlr connectors with 20 db
att...
No, the MA100 is op-amp active, designed for -50 dBu mics. No phantom, however.
It's powered by a third RCA connector on the back of the camera.
You are right, however, that the RCA audio 1 ins on the back of the camera
seem to be at -30 dBV... at least, that's what my generator was reading
when I fed a signal with the camera's volume control at 50% and its meter
at -12 dBFS. People have reported good results using a standard field
mixer with a pad, going into that input.
--
Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom
Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design
Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com |
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| Jay Rose CAS |
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 6:59 pm |
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The cheapest portable solution with phantom and gain seems to be a tiny
ART "MicroMix" for about $50.
--
Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom
Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design
Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com |
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| Wolf |
| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 2:44 pm |
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from my book:
DV cameras (Consumer and semi pro)
As in any video shoot there are several ways to get good sound :
· Record sound directly on the video tape and expect to use that
for the final program (better have your shit totally together) - you
must monitor output of camera.
· Record sound on 2 media: called double system. Decide that the
external (DAT) is the primary media before the shoot. Don't change your
mind! (good friggin' luck)
· Record TC matching DAT code from external generator box (SB-1
or Ambient) as audio on one track of DV at -20db (usually you get
annoying leakage).
The Canon XL-1and now XL-1S is one of the popular consumer mini DV
cameras that replace the traditional Betas in lower budget shoots. The
main drawback is the inability to pull focus manually with these fully
auto or servo driven lenses. Of course sound is always a problem as most
of these cameras are really just set up for ambient sound from the built
on general purpose mediocre stereo mike. Most "videographers" notice
after their first edit session that the onboard mike sucks for anything
but traffic noise, so they hire a professional mixer to "take care of
sound". The first thing to explain are the limits of the system. Then
one can go about recording very decent tracks with proper preparation
and some knowledge and a lot of extra care. Transferring Firewire from
tapes recorded on the camera to computers shows up a design flaw in that
audio does drift in longer takes. If you want tight sync transfer the
audio analog as you transfer the pix as 1394.
Golden rule: Sound speed follows video. If video is 29.97 sound is
29.97 at 48kHz
RF noise: If you mount just about any RF receiver (for radio mikes) on
the back of it, RFI (generated by the camera) can reduce the range of
the wireless system. With the receiver up on top of the camera, velcroed
to the viewfinder or handle, it seems to be OK. Interestingly, the Sony
cameras seemed to be real RF quiet. Listen to the RX RF white noise for
a while before turning on the Tx as always, it will let you know if
there is other stuff (hospital paging systems are notorious and illegal)
on your channel.
Here is some very useful info on the sound setup of XL-1:
http://www.soundspeedmovie.com/resources/articles/canon/xl1audio.html
same as :
http://www.equipmentemporium.com/xl1_audio.htm
http://www.equipmentemporium.com/audiofor.htm
It's a must read for this camera.
Here's Canon's XL1S site with manuals for all their cameras WOW!:
http://www.canondv.com/xl1s
Here's DV magazine's review of the new XL1S:
http://www.dv.com/magazine/2001/1201/johnson_xl1s_1201.html
lots of consumer driven info at:
http://www.dvinfo.net/index.shtml
There are 2 RCAs in the rear (audio 1) that can be inputs or outputs,
the camera decides which it is and when. Slide the INPUT SELECT switch
(located in the side door) to AUDIO 1. The XL-1 shoulder pad accessory,
the MA100, has a 3 XLR mike level audio input. Danger! This is a noisy
input. The amplifier is said to have 6 dB gain, but this is not true.
The RCAs that this plastic molded box plug into are software switchable
between Line and Mic and Mic at -20 by the camera. If you have a mike
level driving the MA100 XLR inputs set the rear camera inputs (audio 1)
for mike (even though they are RCA plugs).
Jay Rose says: Canon's spec for their audio is either 16bit/48k/2-track
or 12bit/32k/4-track. If you do the math, they both equal 1,536,000 bits
per second. The 4-channel mode is PCM non-linear, which gets a little
better performance out of mid-level sounds but doesn't change the noise
floor. 12 bit is not good enough even for voice recording. Dramatic
voices can get pretty loud unexpectedly, which is one reason why the
standard nominal level is -20 dBFs. Theoretical noise floor of 12 bits
is -72 dBFs, practical on a prosumer camera is probably around -62. So
your noise is -42 dB from the average voice, and too damned close to
unvoiced fricatives. Now add a little compression for broadcast. And
there is very little left. Forget a theatrical distribution with 12 bit
sound. Always use the 16 bit setting.
Jay Rose: Get a copy of the November 2001 cover date of DV Magazine
http://www.dv.com/ this article is unfortunately not on the web -
remember libraries? There's a long article in there about camera sound,
and the XL1 was one of the cameras we tested with analyzers. when we
plugged a -35 dBu (fairly hot) mic into a MA100 or BeachTek XLR adapter,
we got 54 dB s/n below -12 dBFs. Best s/n was with a line-level
(actually, -30 dBV) into the RCA jacks: 61 dB below -12 dBFs. -2 dB
points, through the MA100, are 80 Hz and 12 kHz. Anything above 500 Hz
was prone to produce aliasing, some 25 to 30 dB below the signal.
Granted, that's not a big problem in dialog.
Bottom line: You'll get the best S/N and THD+N if you use the unbalanced
RCA ins on the back ("audio 1"), with the cam's volume controls set to
50%, and feeding a signal of -30 dBV [for "0" VU on the external
mixers meter] that show as -12 dBFs on the cameras meters. This is 7 dB
quieter than sending a line level signal to the BeachTek XLR adapter
that in turn feeds the front minijack mike level input!! It wants -10
dBV on the mini, or -30 dBV on the RCA. But a simple pad will get you
there. Then calibrate the camera so that zero on the mixer is -12 dBFS
on the camera's meter. This should have the camera's volume control
right around 50%. If the camera's control is not between about 35% -
65%, something's wrong with the setup... almost all of these cameras get
much noisier when
the control is too high, and clip when it's too low.
Check Jay Roses website's tutorial section if you need details on
building a +4dBu balanced to -30 dBV unbalanced pad.
http://dplay.com/book/pgs2e/pads.pdf or
http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/line_to_mic.html for all kinds of pads
with the math, and a great graphic representation of the math at
http://www.rapco.com/catalog/tpad.html
While somebody has to monitor headphones at the camera, it's E-E not off
tape. Generally in these cheap DV cameras the headphone amp is connected
before the ADC (analog to digital converter). If you want to monitor
what's actually printing to tape, use the FireWire output into a laptop
(of course that is a painful mess) and monitor the laptop. Make sure you
have a good soundcard in the laptop, most laptop internal headphone amps
suck. check Jays site: www.dplay.com <http://www.dplay.com/>
Canons audio accessories site (uninformative as most these consumer
instructions): http://www.canondv.com/xl1s/a_audio_access.html
These are the XLR input adapters. 2 ins for the MA100 and 4 on the MA200.
MA100 MA200
MA100: Power supply: 5 V DC from camera, Audio input jack: 2 x XLR 3;
1: Shield, 2: Hot, 3: Cold, Input level: -55 dBv (balanced) that is a
mike level, Input impedance: 600 ohm, Output RCA phono jack (male)
connects to AUDIO1 RCA phono plug (unbalanced), Gain: 6dB (balance to
unbalanced conversion) Output impedance: 600 ohm. This is only a mike
input connector and balancer thing that is slightly noisy and
recommended only if there is no other way. |
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| rIO |
| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 4:06 am |
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Guest
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Quote: I have an XL1 camcorder, now I got under my hands a very nice shotgun mic
to
use on set (admit it the one that ships with the XL1 isn't useable at
all).
[SNIP!]
Quote: Do someone knows a palce where to find electric schemas (I should know how
to do it, but a confirmation could be nice) or some more information ??
Thanks everyone for the answers... I'll let you know ohw I manage to solve
"the problem", I think I'll buy one of those cheap mixers and try this
way...
Thanks...
--
rIO.sK
www.officineitalia.it |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 1:05 pm |
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Hi,
be aware that the Behringer Mixer MXB 1002 gives you only 18 V Phantom
with batteries, 21 V with Power supply.
Tom P |
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