Super-8 sound transfer in or near Pasadena

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Teacherjh

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:16 am

Guest

I need to transfer sync sound from a CD (with pilottone or 60 hz sine) to the
stripe on a 600 foot reel of super8. I need to do this in Pasadena Calif.
Even Pro8 can't do it (they appear to specialize in video transfers - doesn't
anybody project film any more?)

If you do or know of anybody who does this, in or near Pasadena CA, please post
or Email me. Or if you have or know of a projector that can do this, that I
can beg, borrow or rent (such as at a college or high school or something), I'd
appreciate a post or Email.

I need to do this sometime between Sept 11-17

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Steve Spicer

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:44 am

Guest

Since CD technology and stripe sound only just overlap technologically
in time, I'd be surprised if you find *anywhere* that will perform that
transfer or *any* hardware that exists for that purpose.

I suppose it's possible that if someone had pilottone equipment that was
still being used with tape, that you could substitute the tape recorder
with a CD player. I've never seen it - but that doesn't mean it doesn't
exist. I don't know how popular pilottone equipment was in the USA in
its heyday. In the UK it was very rare for 8mm films.

I suspect you will have to find another method of transfer; depending on
accuracy of the sync required - maybe do it in bits - or even have to
rethink the whole thing technologically.

Sorry to be negative

SS

Teacherjh wrote:

Quote:

Matt Sandstrom

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:27 pm

Guest

Teacherjh wrote:

Quote:

I need to transfer sync sound from a CD (with pilottone or 60 hz sine) to the
stripe on a 600 foot reel of super8.

i'd suggest you resolve the cd audio digitally and then use a crystal
synced projector which should be easier to find. i've got some software
to resolve the audio if you're interested.

/matt

Teacherjh

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:57 pm

Guest

Quote:

i'd suggest you resolve the cd audio digitally

I'm not sure what you mean here (I do know what "resolve" means). The sound
track was created in ProTools and should actually be in sync with the
computer's timing chip. IT lasts the right number of eighteenths of a second
on the computer. I believe (but don't know for a fact) that CDs operate with
similar accuracy - the pilottone is there just in case. I have the master
pro-tools files, and could sync to a crystal projector, or feed the pilottone
(amplified) into the power plug of a sync-to-line projector.

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Matt Sandstrom

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:09 pm

Guest

Teacherjh wrote:

Quote:

ok, so it's in sync with the film already and your only problem is to
get the projector or sound recorder to run at the correct speed? then
you just need a crystal synced one, which i assume would be easier to
find than one set up for pilotone. if the pilotone had been generated by
a non crystal synced camera though you'd have to resolve it to the
correct speed first, which i've written a program for.

i can also recommend you talk to this german guy pedro. don't know if he
posts here but he's usually to be found on the 8mm.filmshooting.com
board. he's the master of cable syncing anything and everything...

/matt

Teacherjh

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:36 pm

Guest

Quote:

if the pilotone had been generated by

a non crystal synced camera
<<

It was generated by replicating a 60Hz wave I found on the internet over and
over in ProTools. The waves are replicated in sync with the frames, so it
should be fine.

What level should pilottone be on the sound track? (yes, the other channel :)

Quote:

i can also recommend you talk to this german guy pedro.

<<

I'll hunt him down. Thanks.

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Klaus Pellinka

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:20 am

Guest

Jose, its all much easier than you think to get the digital sound from the CD
over to stripe ? in sync.

First transfer the sound from the CD onto your computer‘s hard disc. You must do
this digitally, e.g.
you need an application that can import the sound files from the CD into your
computer and store it
on the HD. If you work with Quicktime this is a much straightforward process.

If the soundtrack was put together in ProTools, the sound from the CD should be
in sync with the
film, provided you counted the number of single frames of your film from its
start mark to each of the
sound cues. Dividing each of these figures by 18 (or 24 fps ) yields the
distance from from the start mark
timewise (in seconds and fractions of the last second). So placing, say a sharp
noise, to a cue mark
in ProTool‘s timeline (peferably set to the minutes:seconds:milliseconds format)
makes sure that this
noise is in sync with the film‘s cue mark for that noise.
Here‘s an example: Say, a door closes due to wind at picture 4657 (counted from
the film‘s start mark),
divide this bei 18 which gives 253 seconds and 722 milliseconds or 04:13:722 or
4 minutes, 13 seconds
and 722 milliseconds.
If you have a spreadsheet program like Microsoft Excel, these calculations can
be obtained "automatically".

I assume you got things right at that point.

Ok, now with the digital sound file on your hard disc, open it in a sound
editor. Depending if your soundtrack
is mono or stereo, it will open with one or two tracks. To make things easier, I
assume, your soundtrack
is mono, so any two track sound editing program will do.
Under windows go for something like cool edit pro (which is now Audition by
Adobe). Under Mac OS go
for Sound Studio (www.felttip.com). It’s a shareware sound editor that you can
use for 15 days for free.

One of the two tracks of this editor carries the sound. Don‘t touch it and
direct your attention to the
second track, which is empty. Make yourself familiar with the noise generator
feature of the program. It
is a possibilty to generate sync reference signal ELECTRONICALLY which is
referenced to the sampling
frequency of your digital sound. The way you did it, does not consequently
produce sync sound. It can,
but you may also fail if some specs are not met. Opt for the sine wave noise
variety. You now have to
determine the frequency and the length of the sync signal. There are two
possibilities.
If you go for 60 Hz pilottone, choose 60 Hz as the signal‘s frequency and type
in the necessary length
according to the length of your film.

You might also choose a sync variety that is very common with many amateurs: one
pulse per frame.
Let‘s assume your film runs at 18 fps. You now divide 44100 (which is the CD
standard sampling
frequency) by 18 = 2450. So each frame of your film equals 2450 digital sound
samples. Now tell the
noise generator to generate a sine wave sound at a frequency of 1000 Hertz per
second. This is a high
pitched sound. To get 18 pulses per seconds with 1000 Hz sine wave, tell the
program to generate
the sine wave exaktly 1225 samples long. That is exaktly one half picture. Add
1225 samples of
abolute silence to that (the noise generator can do that too). You end up now
with one pulse that is
exaktly 1/18 of a second or exactly 2450 samples long. You have to work
painstakingly well at this
point as 1 sample too much or not neough translates into some sync shift while
transferring. So make
sure, your pulse is exactly 2450 samples long if you work with 18 fps.
Through copy and paste, you can then easily generate as many pulses as you need
in the second sound
track.

Now when you play your sound back from the hard disc, feed the sound into the
sound input of
your projector with the film and feed the pulses from the second track into the
pulse input socket.
There are only two projectors out there whose speed can be governed by pulses:
The Elmo GS 1000
and the Braun visacustic. Both start as soon as the first pulse comes from the
hard disc and both
will adjust their film frequency (speed) in such a way that the projector
projects exactly each frame
of your film when a pulse comes into the speed regulation circuitry.

I agree, this sounds a bit complicated. But once you have practized it, you
never go back again to tape.
It is the easiest way to compose even complex digital soundtracks for Super 8
films.

Burn another CD of your soundtrack on one and the sync signal on the second
track and you can even feed
both into your projector from any ordinary CD player, provided, you own one of
those two projectors
I have mentioned above.

I assume there are many questions left open. Dont hesitate to ask. To not block
too much bandwidth,
you may email me.

Hope this helps a little bit.

Kind regards
Klaus

Teacherjh schrieb:

Quote:

i'd suggest you resolve the cd audio digitally

I'm not sure what you mean here (I do know what "resolve" means). The sound
track was created in ProTools and should actually be in sync with the
computer's timing chip. IT lasts the right number of eighteenths of a second
on the computer. I believe (but don't know for a fact) that CDs operate with
similar accuracy - the pilottone is there just in case. I have the master
pro-tools files, and could sync to a crystal projector, or feed the pilottone
(amplified) into the power plug of a sync-to-line projector.

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Teacherjh

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:47 pm

Guest

I've been away.

<<
Jose, its all much easier than you think to get the digital sound from the CD
over to stripe in sync.

Quote:

[explanation deleted]

Yep. Already did all that and have a CD with pilottone on one track and the
sound mix on the other. (but now I know what a 'pulse' is [1000 hz for 1/36
sec] for pulse sync - thanks)

<<
feed the sound into the sound input of
your projector with the film and feed the pulses from the second track into the
pulse input socket.

Quote:

Aye, there's the rub. I'm looking for a projector of this ilk. Alas, I am no
longer in Pasadena (and in fact, the print that was in Pasadena is lost).
However I still have my print and the camera master.

<<
There are only two projectors out there whose speed can be governed by pulses:
The Elmo GS 1000
and the Braun visacustic.
Both start as soon as the first pulse comes from the
hard disc and both will adjust their film frequency (speed) in such a way that
the projector
projects exactly each frame
of your film when a pulse comes into the speed regulation circuitry.

Quote:

Looks like a job for Ebay. I presume there are other projectors that work with
pilottone, but don't know how they start up in sync.

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Matt Sandstrom

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:34 pm

Guest

Teacherjh wrote:

Quote:

I presume there are other projectors that work with
pilottone, but don't know how they start up in sync.

they don't have to. if you find one just feed it an accurate 60 hz
pilotone independently of your audio (this essentially gives you a
crystal synced projector), start the projector, watch the countdown
leader, start the audio playback at the right time. wait. done. one
benefit with this method is that it lets you record in stereo, and if
that's what you want you can obviously do the same thing with sync
pulses as well.

/matt

Jim Carlile

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 12:49 am

Guest

Wouldn't the easiest way of doing this be just to 'wild-sync' the
sound shot-by-shot onto the stripe, trial by error, until shot and
sound are in sync?

Don't laugh-- this was quite a successful way of cordlessly syncing
tape to film back in the old days. Some folks never even bothered with
complicated sync methods: they just shot wild, then slowy,
painstakingly matched the individual shots. It worked well! There are
many articles in 'S8 Filmaker' and 'Movie Maker' about this method.
The secret is-- and it may be harder with CD-- to have one side run
consistently slower than the other, always taking up the slack with
one side ONLY, to avoid insanity...

teacherjh@aol.comspam.not (Teacherjh) wrote in message news:<20030828001620.19936.00000048@mb-m28.aol.com>...

Quote:

Klaus Pellinka

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:43 am

Guest

Jose,

there is no such thing out there like a projector with a integrated
electronics to match its speed to 60 Hz pilot tone.
The Film group might be able to provide some cristal based eletronics
that would drive a projectors speed at exactly
18 fps. It will be by far easier, however, to buy a Braun visacustic
through ebay together with the matching
electronics speed governing box (by Braun as well).

If you would like to get a file with sample accurate 1:1 pulses
(quintessential pre requisite to get the sound from
the CD in sync onto your film‘s magstripe, email me and I will come back
with a short piece that can be "elongated"
timewise on your computer by cut and paste according to your specific
needs.

Both the Visacustic and the Elmo GS 1200 start with the first pulse
arriving at its electronics, so not start sequence
is needed. Its easy, comfortable and reliable. Matt‘s proposed way of
starting sync "on the fly" can work, but needs
not to do so under alle circumstances and deliver consistently reliable
results.

Hopefully this helps. I‘ll be out of town a couple of days,so if you
need some quick action, send an email.

Klaus

Matt Sandstrom schrieb:

Quote:

Teacherjh wrote:
I presume there are other projectors that work with
pilottone, but don't know how they start up in sync.

they don't have to. if you find one just feed it an accurate 60 hz
pilotone independently of your audio (this essentially gives you a
crystal synced projector), start the projector, watch the countdown
leader, start the audio playback at the right time. wait. done. one
benefit with this method is that it lets you record in stereo, and if
that's what you want you can obviously do the same thing with sync
pulses as well.

/matt

Teacherjh

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 9:39 am

Guest

Quote:

Wouldn't the easiest way of doing this be just to 'wild-sync' the

sound shot-by-shot onto the stripe, trial by error, until shot and
sound are in sync
<<

That is how the film was shot and editied. I copied wild sound onto fullcoat a
hair fast, and cut frames out of the fullcoat as needed to keep it in sync.
Worked well. That's not the problem.

Many stages later in post, I have sync sound and need a projector that will
sync to crystal or pilottone. They seem hard to find.

I'm back from Pasadena (as it turns out, the copy of the film I was to record
onto is lost) but I still have one other copy to do here.

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

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