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Movies Forum Index » Current Movies Forum » do dogs and wolves belong to the same species?
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| tuco |
 Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:49 am |
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i heard that the offspring of a dog and a wolf is also fertile. does
that mean dogs and wolves belong to the same species? |
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| Derek Janssen |
| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:05 am |
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tuco wrote:
Quote: i heard that the offspring of a dog and a wolf is also fertile. does
that mean dogs and wolves belong to the same species?
Okay, tuco/Gaza, here's your challenge:
Try and figure which one of the cross-thread groups you blindly guessed
at doesn't exist! :)
Derek Janssen (we'll give you a hint--It's not r.a.m.c-f)
djanss@rcn.com |
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| wolf |
| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:15 am |
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No they belong to the same Genus however. The true taxonomy is
Kingdon-anamalia; Phylum-Chordata vertebrata; Class-Mammalia;
Order-Carnivora; Family-Canidae; Genus-Canis(dogs); Species for wolves is
lupus species for Malamute is also lupus, but sub species familiaris (Canus
lupus familiaris) which is the species name for all domesticad breeds it
appears.
Dogs are basically and technically mutated wolves Tuco. Wolves are a
naturally evolved
species. coyotes are a sub species of the red wolf, and the red wolf is a
sub species of one of our more common wolves like the grey wolf i think it
is. the eastern timber wolf is a sub species of the grey wolf also. there
is also the arctic wolf which i think is a subspecies of the grey also and
there is an alaskan wolf or yukon canadian wolf which im not sure of the
exact name at the moment but they are also sub species of grey wolf. The
grey wolf mainly exists in canada and parts of alaska today and its sub
species covering the whole north american continent. a long time ago wolves
cubs were taken captive by man and bred down. each time you breed a dog
there is a small percentage of mutations that occurr, mutations like long
ears, short legs, rare colors of fur, big heads, small heads, long jaws,
short jaws, long fur, short fur, and even diseases that show up rarely.
when you breed these mutations with there like a higher percentage of those
mutations show up and when those dogs are bred again those mutations become
the norm. then when you take that mutated species and breed all the wolf
out of it by nuetering and spaying all the ones that come out looking
similar to the initial(in this case the wolf) and you breed all the ones
that have the desired new look. once you have that breed established(takes
at the very minimum 5-10 years up to much more if you want to get the job
done right or if the change desired is much different than the norm) then
you can move on to your next mutation mutating your new breed into yet
something else.
so the question, can you imagine how many mutation it took for a british
bulldog or a chihuahua to come about? i call that one mutated dog.
as i mentioned before diseases can come about this way too, and the diseases
are not always as apparent so careful attention and medical testing has to
be done to make sure a disease isnt being bred along with a new breed, or it
will become the comomn trait within that breed.
You may now see why rottwielers commonly have hip displaysia(spelling?) and
other breeds do as well and why other breeds carry there own genetic faults
as well. it was because poor attention was payed to that aspect of a
particular breed when in the making or because poor medical resources,
advancements, or knowledge were available at the time of the breeds
creation. you can trace ALL domesticated dogs back to the common wolf gene,
which is the wolf, but not necessarily the North American Grey Wolf, in most
cases it would be a european wolf, which may in turn be the grandfather of
the N.A. Grey Wolf.
In Prehistoric times a species existed with the saber tooth tiger called
a Dire Wolf. Im not sure if those animals at the top of the food chain
could have survived what could have wiped out the dinosaurs and other
animals at the top of the food chain. but if for some reason they did
survive(there may be some documentation on this i havent studied up on it)
then all of todays wolves may have descended from the dire wolf.
Yes you can breed any dog with a pure wolf, but that would be exploiting the
wolf. Taking a wolf out of the wild, or buying a wolf that is even near 90%
is messing with an endangered species and is highly illegal subject to fines
equivalent to the price of the going rate for a middle class home.
Breeding two pure species within the same Genus(i believe its genus) is
called hybridization. Wolf Hybrids are a cross between a wolf and usually
an Alaskan Malamute but some times a German shepard. The idea behind that
is a fruitless attempt to bring wild wolf genes into there domesticated
animal, this only causes major problems. The wolf is a wild animal and is a
natural born killer, but is afraid of man so wont harm him. If you mix that
with an animal like a german shepard or malamute that IS NOT afraid of man,
you usually get the worst of two worlds, A NATURAL BORN KILLER THAT IS NOT
AFRAID OF MAN posing a huge risk of life and limb and family and friends and
most all other domesticated animals. Then it would take years upon years to
breed out the Hunting instincts, which has already been HALF done in the
Malamute. The malamute is known to be Half Draught, and Half Hunting.
There is a wonderful russian nordic breed dog if you care to look up called
the Northeasterly Hauling Laika where all of the hunting has been bred out
of it and it is a pure draught(draft meaning sledge dog or pulling) dog. The
laika is such a beautiful dog and very friendly and you dont have to worry
about any aggressions or your household cat or your neighbors dogs.
I once had a coyote shepard and he came home with the neighbors shitzu in
his mouth one time, dead of course. I have a 1/8 wolf and he came home with
the neighbors chickens and cats dozens of times, i now have an electric
fence and have to warn people about the safety of there animals
periodically. they will even attack puppies from other litters but still of
there own kind because of there strong instinct to pass on ONLY there own
genes. I got into good trouble with the law behind these animals, they ar a
huge handful.
I will suggest if anybody is interested in wolves and wants one of there own
to please not buy a wolf hybrid as they are contributing to the exploitation
of the genes of a wild animal but to buy an ALASKAN MALAMUTE who is one of
the worlds few if not ONLY DIRECT DESCENDANT of the Wolf(Arctic it is
thought). The malamute has a strong wolf background and anybody that thinks
the wolf is absent in the Malamute is a pure fool. They are like a Half
Wolf in instinct etc.. they kill cats and chickens and puppies too if one
doesnt spend much time with it and show is unconditional love back and
DOESNT SPOIL IT TOO MUCH. if you have a few malamutes, watch out, you may
be overrun by bad behaviour. If one decided to get one or two malamutes you
are in for a ride of your life as you will see that it is the most wonderful
creature ever created by man and will show you a life of unconditional love
and respect as long as those very things are shown to IT.
I have 8 Mal Wolves and i use them for freighting/expeditioning that is the
ONLY reason i justified incorporating the wolf into there breed because they
pull a heavier load as they are a bigger dog. I started off with a supposed
half wolf but he was a bit less and he is nothing but trouble and has to pay
for it by being behind an electric fence more than the others and doesnt get
to enjoy the luxury of a regular run of the territory like the others
because he will come back with somebodies chicken or pee on there stuff or
get me in trouble by calling animal control on me because he is in there
yard they already know his behaviour. I sold one of his pups to someone and
i recently did a follow up and the guy had to "get rid" of it because "he
was chewing up all" the guys "patio furniture" and other wood items like
fence posts and was constantly chewing on the fence etc... This guy im sure
didnt spend enough quality time with this dog at all, i was very
dissapointed that he would do this. there are some people that just plain
give up instead of follow through and deal with the dog for the duration of
the dogs life, this is why it is important when we choose a pup we choose
one that is fit for our lifestyle and another reason why we want to do alot
of research on the goods and bads of any particular breed before going out
and impulsively buying a dog. If we dont take these steps were doing the
animal and the animal industry a HUGE INJUSTICE and shoud pay for it by
educating other peoples of our mistakes, it is our duty.
wolf
Wolfdogg's site
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~wolfdoggsite
"tuco" <ilbrutto2@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fa9a219c.0403110149.5eecea51@posting.google.com...
Quote: i heard that the offspring of a dog and a wolf is also fertile. does
that mean dogs and wolves belong to the same species? |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:49 pm |
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In rec.pets.dogs.misc wolf <lone6wolfpak@hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote: No they belong to the same Genus however. The true taxonomy is
Kingdon-anamalia; Phylum-Chordata vertebrata; Class-Mammalia;
Order-Carnivora; Family-Canidae; Genus-Canis(dogs); Species for wolves is
lupus species for Malamute is also lupus, but sub species familiaris (Canus
lupus familiaris) which is the species name for all domesticad breeds it
appears.
Funny how you answer the question
"Do dogs and wolves belong to the same species?"
With the word "no" and then go on to explain that they ARE the same
species but are different subspecies.
So the answer to
"Do dogs and wolves belong to the same species?"
is "Yes" Or if you happen to have different taxonomic views the answer
might be that some taxonomists classify them as the same species but
different subspecies, while other taxonimists view them as different
species. The term "species" is general and how it applies to the
classification of animals depends upon exactly how that term is applied
in a specific instance.
In _some_ taxonomic views "species" is defined as those animals who can
mate and reproduce viable and fertile young. By that definition wolf and
dog are the same species.
Other taxonomic views include geographic or behaviorial constraints to
cross-reproduction in addition to the physical. So that animal groups
who are geographically isolated may be classified as different species
even though they are physically capable of mating and producing viable
fertile young. And there are still other perfectly valid taxonimic views
in which the criteria for classification as a species has nothing to do
with reproduction.
Quote: Dogs are basically and technically mutated wolves Tuco.
There are mutations, but selective breeding for characteristics is the
primary factor in the dog's form today, not mutations.
Quote: Wolves are a
naturally evolved
species. coyotes are a sub species of the red wolf, and the red wolf is a
sub species of one of our more common wolves like the grey wolf i think it
is.
Who says? I suppose it depends upon which taxonimic philosophy you
follow.
http://www.nsrl.ttu.edu/tmot1/canirufu.htm This site, for example,
claims the red wolf is of the species Canis rufus, while the coyote is a
different species Canis latrans. Both are the same genus. And according
to the same site not only are neither subspecies of each other, but they
also are not subspecies to the grey wolf which is Canis lupus.
As you can see on this site, however,
http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/history/red_timeline.asp
there is disagreement over the classification.
In any case I know of no taxonomic classification that would agree that
Coyotes are a subspecies of the red wolf and that the red wolf is in turn
a subspecies of the grey wolf. That would make the coyote a
subsubspecies of the grey wolf.
Quote: the eastern timber wolf is a sub species of the grey wolf also. there
is also the arctic wolf which i think is a subspecies of the grey also and
there is an alaskan wolf or yukon canadian wolf which im not sure of the
exact name at the moment but they are also sub species of grey wolf.
I have a feeling that you are confused about taxonomy and the terms
"species" and "subspecies."
Quote: The
grey wolf mainly exists in canada and parts of alaska today and its sub
species covering the whole north american continent. a long time ago wolves
cubs were taken captive by man and bred down.
This has yet to be established and there are many scientists who would
not agree with such a flat statement.
Quote: each time you breed a dog
there is a small percentage of mutations that occurr, mutations like long
ears, short legs, rare colors of fur, big heads, small heads, long jaws,
short jaws, long fur, short fur, and even diseases that show up rarely.
No that is not correct. "Each time you breed" is far far too often to
experience mutations. For the most part high school genetics deals with
just dominent and recessive, but real life genetics is far more
complicated. Most of the factors you list are not the result of
mutations but the result of selecting from existing genetic material.
Quote: when you breed these mutations with there like a higher percentage of those
mutations show up and when those dogs are bred again those mutations become
the norm. then when you take that mutated species and breed all the wolf
out of it by nuetering and spaying all the ones that come out looking
similar to the initial(in this case the wolf) and you breed all the ones
that have the desired new look. once you have that breed established(takes
at the very minimum 5-10 years up to much more if you want to get the job
done right or if the change desired is much different than the norm) then
you can move on to your next mutation mutating your new breed into yet
something else.
You can never breed out all of the original genetic material. You can
get further and further
from the initial look and behavior patterns but the majority of the
genetic material will still remain. Majority of genetic material in a
genus is shared between the species. If it were not it would be ever so
much easier to decide what a species was and was not.
Quote: so the question, can you imagine how many mutation it took for a british
bulldog or a chihuahua to come about? i call that one mutated dog.
as i mentioned before diseases can come about this way too, and the diseases
are not always as apparent so careful attention and medical testing has to
be done to make sure a disease isnt being bred along with a new breed, or it
will become the comomn trait within that breed.
You may now see why rottwielers commonly have hip displaysia(spelling?) and
other breeds do as well and why other breeds carry there own genetic faults
as well.
Wolves also get hip dysplasia. The genetic material has been there all
along.
Quote: it was because poor attention was payed to that aspect of a
particular breed when in the making or because poor medical resources,
advancements, or knowledge were available at the time of the breeds
creation.
In a sense, this is true. Many genetic health problems could be reduced
by simply paying attention. Others, such a hip dysplasia, are more
complex.
Quote: you can trace ALL domesticated dogs back to the common wolf gene,
which is the wolf, but not necessarily the North American Grey Wolf, in most
cases it would be a european wolf, which may in turn be the grandfather of
the N.A. Grey Wolf.
There is very heavy disagreement among taxonimists in this area. I think
we are far from being able to write the above as if it were fact. It is
one of several well researched theories.
<snip>
Quote: Wolf Hybrids are a cross between a wolf and usually
an Alaskan Malamute but some times a German shepard.
A wolf hybrid would be any crossing of any wolf with any domestic canine.
Some breeds of domestic canine are more often used than others.
<snip rest of misunderstood information>
--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dog-play.com/shop2.html |
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| Philo D |
| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:37 pm |
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| I read recently that DNA tests show dogs kept by pre-Columbian Native Americans are descended from Asian wolves, not from American wolves. So they brought their dogs with them when they migrated to America. |
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| Rob Duncan |
| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:47 pm |
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"wolf" <lone6wolfpak@hotmail.com>
Quote:
and yes the mutations were selected, but they are still mutations, they
have
to mutate before you can select them..
Why are you calling natural variation... "mutations"?
Rob |
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