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three-eyed freak
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:37 am
Guest
TCM had an interesting hour-long doc on Abel Gance last evening.
There were several mentions of the 3 panel sections of his epic
Napoleon. Apparently the process was used for more than just the
final reel. There were also a couple of stills of the Tryptich
camera(s). Gance had three cameras mounted vertically to reduce
parallax problems (he actually said the work parallax but I don't
think it was translated for the subtitles.

Would this vertical arrangement work much like the Cinemiracle scheme,
i.e. all 3 cameras shooting from the same optical center?
Theo Gluck
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:41 pm
Guest
In article
<a2140476-7011-4cc8-b042-0b3b239b0cc4@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
three-eyed freak <terrence.oreilly@shps.com> wrote:

Quote:
TCM had an interesting hour-long doc on Abel Gance last evening.
There were several mentions of the 3 panel sections of his epic
Napoleon. Apparently the process was used for more than just the
final reel. There were also a couple of stills of the Tryptich
camera(s). Gance had three cameras mounted vertically to reduce
parallax problems (he actually said the work parallax but I don't
think it was translated for the subtitles.

Would this vertical arrangement work much like the Cinemiracle scheme,
i.e. all 3 cameras shooting from the same optical center?

I watched that documentary as well (from 1968!). I was just floored at
the amount of behind the scenes footage there was of the actual filming
of NAPOLEON - that was a revelation.

I have also seen NAPOLEON twice (Boston @ the Met Center and @ Radio
City Music Hall), and while the triptych is impressive, the stacking of
the cameras does in fact mess with the horizon line somewhat (then
again, the three individual vanishing points in Cinerama aren't exactly
graceful either). As you could see in some shots, Gance also used the
three panels to convey three concurrent and/or related images rather
than use it solely for a panoramic effect.

Quite ironically, I just received two days ago (from my mother who was
going through some old papers) a fading yellow copy of the Boston
University Free Press, and it had my article that I wrote for the Boston
premiere of NAPOLEON (which was held on November 10, 1981).

And all too ironically and sadly on that premiere night they announced
that Gance had passed away in his sleep only a few days before. The
audience rose as Carmine Coppola led the orchestra in "La Marseillaise"
in tribute to Gance and his genius. I still get goose bumps thinking
about that event.

Theo
Studio City, CA
three-eyed freak
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:48 am
Guest
On Apr 28, 10:41 pm, Theo Gluck <theogluckNOS...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Quote:
In article
a2140476-7011-4cc8-b042-0b3b239b0...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
 three-eyed freak <terrence.orei...@shps.com> wrote:

TCM had an interesting hour-long doc on Abel Gance last evening.
There were several mentions of the 3 panel sections of his epic
Napoleon.  Apparently the process was used for more than just the
final reel.  There were also a couple of stills of the Tryptich
camera(s).  Gance had three cameras mounted vertically to reduce
parallax problems (he actually said the work parallax but I don't
think it was translated for the subtitles.

Would this vertical arrangement work much like the Cinemiracle scheme,
i.e. all 3 cameras shooting from the same optical center?

I watched that documentary as well (from 1968!).  I was just floored at
the amount of behind the scenes footage there was of the actual filming
of NAPOLEON - that was a revelation.

I have also seen NAPOLEON twice (Boston @ the Met Center and @ Radio
City Music Hall), and while the triptych is impressive, the stacking of
the cameras does in fact mess with the horizon line somewhat (then
again, the three individual vanishing points in Cinerama aren't exactly
graceful either).  As you could see in some shots, Gance also used the
three panels to convey three concurrent and/or related images rather
than use it solely for a panoramic effect.

Quite ironically, I just received two days ago (from my mother who was
going through some old papers) a fading yellow copy of the Boston
University Free Press, and it had my article that I wrote for the Boston
premiere of NAPOLEON (which was held on November 10, 1981).

And all too ironically and sadly on that premiere night they announced
that Gance had passed away in his sleep only a few days before.  The
audience rose as Carmine Coppola led the orchestra in "La Marseillaise"
in tribute to Gance and his genius.  I still get goose bumps thinking
about that event.

Theo
Studio City, CA

I saw the restored version backed by Coppola when it was released on
VHS. I had no idea that the final reel was in Polyvision and was
totally blown away by it. Gance did indeed treat the 3 panels
individually at times rather than one panorama. He also split the
screen into several small images of the same picture (ala John
Frankenheimer in Grand Prix).

When you saw Napoleon in the theater, was screen flat or curved? And
did the picture width indeed increase by 3x during the Polyvision
sequences?

I also understood per the documentary that Gance said he used the
Polyvision technique during other sequences besides the last reel
(which was the only Tryptich sequence on the VHS tape. Do you have
any info about this?
Guest
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:59 am
On Apr 29, 11:48 am, three-eyed freak <terrence.orei...@shps.com>
wrote:

Quote:
When you saw Napoleon in the theater, was screen flat or curved?  And
did the picture width indeed increase by 3x during the Polyvision
sequences?

I also understood per the documentary that Gance said he used the
Polyvision technique during other sequences besides the last reel
(which was the only Tryptich sequence on the VHS tape.  Do you have
any info about this?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

---I saw Brownlow's initial restoration in San Francisco, actually
further down the peninsula at a theatre with a magnificent theatre
organ.
In the scene where hail stones are hitting drums on the ground, the
organist was able to play the organ's drums in sync with the hail.

The triptych was only in the last reel and three projectors were
used. Just before the triptych came on one could hear in the
auditorium the side projectors starting up, which added to the
anticipation.
It was projected on a relatively flat screen.

---LV
Martin Hart
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:16 pm
Guest
In article <a2140476-7011-4cc8-b042-0b3b239b0cc4
@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, terrence.oreilly@shps.com says...
Quote:
TCM had an interesting hour-long doc on Abel Gance last evening.
There were several mentions of the 3 panel sections of his epic
Napoleon. Apparently the process was used for more than just the
final reel. There were also a couple of stills of the Tryptich
camera(s). Gance had three cameras mounted vertically to reduce
parallax problems (he actually said the work parallax but I don't
think it was translated for the subtitles.

Would this vertical arrangement work much like the Cinemiracle scheme,
i.e. all 3 cameras shooting from the same optical center?


For my tastes, Gance's triptych isn't worth much. His panel alignment
is horrible. Mounting his cameras vertically sure didn't help in any
way. I don't think he was interested in creating a perfect Cinerama
style image. It was an effective feature to add to the film,
particularly at the time is was made, but the scenes where he uses
mirror images on the left and right panels surrounding Napoleon or other
subject matter on the center panel is at least equal in its emotional
power. And tinting the panels to create a tricolor effect is also
pretty cool. I think way too much comparison is made between Gance's
triptych and Cinerama. They had images composed of three panels but
that's the end of the similarity.

Marty
--
The American WideScreen Museum
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/
norml
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:53 pm
Guest
Martin Hart <thanksforthe@spam.org> wrotf:

Quote:
For my tastes, Gance's triptych isn't worth much. His panel alignment
is horrible. Mounting his cameras vertically sure didn't help in any
way. I don't think he was interested in creating a perfect Cinerama
style image. It was an effective feature to add to the film,
particularly at the time is was made, but the scenes where he uses
mirror images on the left and right panels surrounding Napoleon or other
subject matter on the center panel is at least equal in its emotional
power. And tinting the panels to create a tricolor effect is also
pretty cool. I think way too much comparison is made between Gance's
triptych and Cinerama. They had images composed of three panels but
that's the end of the similarity.

Marty

I was fortunate to see "Napoleon" twice--first at San Francisco's late,
lamented silent cinema palace, The Avenue Theater with Bob Vaughn at the
Wurlitzer, and later, at a more advanced stage in the restoration, at the
Opera House with Carmine Coppola conducting his orchestral score.

AIR, on both occasions, three flat screens with their vertical edges butted
against each other at an angle were employed. The side panels were
illuminated by projectors in the rear corners of the auditoria, with the
beams crossing in the Cinerama fashion.

Fred Waller spent a couple of decades refining the tools available to
produce as near a reproduction of reality as he could. Despite the carping
of a couple of cranks around here, he achieved a marvelous effect. The
defining flaw is not the visible vertical joins, as many have maintained,
but the fact that the three lenses do not share a common optical
center--producing such anomalies as the famous three-legged woman.

The artistic possiblities of the system were never exploited by a true
cinema visionary.

Gance, OTH, though burdened by incredibly clumsy hardware, expoited his
three panels--displaying panoramas at some times and contrapuntal or
synchronized images at others--in a groundbreaking way.

The Cinerama pictures are a technical tour de force, "Napoleon" an artistic
one.

Norm
Martin Hart
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:23 am
Guest
In article <r75f1492p63gqsl1fvbt6ede185pijinpp@4ax.com>,
normlehf@pacbell.net says...

<Snip>

Quote:

The Cinerama pictures are a technical tour de force, "Napoleon" an artistic
one.

Norm


Norm,
You said it a lot better than I did.

Marty
--
The American WideScreen Museum
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/
Scott Dorsey
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:10 am
Guest
Martin Hart <thanksforthe@spam.org> wrote:
Quote:

For my tastes, Gance's triptych isn't worth much. His panel alignment
is horrible. Mounting his cameras vertically sure didn't help in any
way. I don't think he was interested in creating a perfect Cinerama
style image. It was an effective feature to add to the film,

Don't think of it as the forerunner to Cinerama. Think of it as the
forerunner to Woodstock.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Martin Hart
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:52 am
Guest
In article <fv9r39$n6g$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com says...
Quote:
Martin Hart <thanksforthe@spam.org> wrote:

For my tastes, Gance's triptych isn't worth much. His panel alignment
is horrible. Mounting his cameras vertically sure didn't help in any
way. I don't think he was interested in creating a perfect Cinerama
style image. It was an effective feature to add to the film,

Don't think of it as the forerunner to Cinerama. Think of it as the
forerunner to Woodstock.
--scott



That is also quite apropos.

Marty
--
The American WideScreen Museum
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/
in TechnicolorŽ
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:21 am
Guest
"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fv9r39$n6g$1@panix2.panix.com...
Quote:
Martin Hart <thanksforthe@spam.org> wrote:

For my tastes, Gance's triptych isn't worth much. His panel alignment
is horrible. Mounting his cameras vertically sure didn't help in any
way. I don't think he was interested in creating a perfect Cinerama
style image. It was an effective feature to add to the film,

Don't think of it as the forerunner to Cinerama. Think of it as the
forerunner to Woodstock.
--scott

or Grand Prix.

Morgan
 
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