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Guest

Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 7:34 pm

Hi Group,

I'm a little stuck, doing something I haven't do in 20
years:

"Shooting on Video" single system, this is a Panasonic

VDX100. The simplicity is that they don't want double
system.

(I'm not comfortable, I think I'll split the Mic & RF feed
anyway to the Deva HD and the Camera. Run & Gun

Question is, Is the monitoring from the camera confidence?
Stereo mini?

I will probably run a 3-channel snake from the camera to a
Shure FP 33 mix Comtek to the monitor out on the camera.

I now remember why I always referred this stuff to someone
else.. It's IA, Its insurance, I need the bucks ...

Thanks

Sincerely

Ron Scelza CAS

Karl Lohninger

Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 7:41 pm

Guest

On 5/13/04 6:34 PM, in article JkVoc.16635$GV5.10014@bignews4.bellsouth.net,
"walawala@bellsouth.net" <walawala@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Quote:

Question is, Is the monitoring from the camera confidence?
Stereo mini?

There is no confidence monitoring in any video cameras except some betaSP
models, be it DVX100 or F900....

Use the mini stereo headphone output for monitoring and as usual headphone
amp quality is so so la la and the levels are low.

Good luck, Karl

Adam D. Sperry

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 12:40 am

Guest

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 1:05 am

Thank You Karal & Adam for you help.

Sincerely
Ron Scelza CAS

Oleg Kaizerman

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 1:16 am

Guest

no confidence head on that camera , for better sound monitoring use the rca
outs ( -10dbv)on the camera and not the headphones out ( use he right angle
rca for less strain on the camera plugs)
the headphone out is very noisy , if you will decide use it ,the old dvx 100
headphones can be only be calibrated in pb( vtr) mode , the new 100A in
camera mode as well
the sound bar on dvx display is that the firs red is -12 dbfs the third
wite is about -18, -20 dbfs
if you use mike level input , you have 2 level settings inside the
camera -50 and -60 , for normal work use the -50 , the internal limiter is
set to -4.5dbfs ( alc -on)( I don't remember if its works in line as well or
only for mike)
and ganging the both channels
there is small delay on the output since the monitoring and the rca outs
sitting after a2d2a converters

I know few people that recorded to dvx for cinema relies and where more hen
pleased
there is no tc in out on that camera so if you synchronize with deva the
only way to do regular clap or sacrifice one of the camera audio tracks
put some masken tape on the camer faders to secure them
hope that helps

--
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland

<walawala@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:JkVoc.16635$GV5.10014@bignews4.bellsouth.net...

Quote:

Jay Rose CAS

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 10:57 am

Guest

Quote:

It might be monitoring E-E (the Sony PD150 definitely doesn't), which
would let you know know if there's a problem with the system clock or CPU.
But if it were true confidence monitoring you'd hear a delay, and a
disruption when going from pause to record. Also, if it were true
confidence monitoring, you can bet Canon would be bragging about it;
nobody else has that feature at the price.

Quote:

the sound bar on dvx display is that the firs red is -12 dbfs the third
wite is about -18, -20 dbfs...

Just don't record with tone / mixer zero at -20 dBFS, even if you use that
level for Deva or DAT. With a line input, the DVX100's dynamic range is
only 72 dB (fullscale to noise floor, analog in to digital out); recording
with zero at -12 dBFS will give you a 60 dB s/n.

With a -50 dBu mic input, s/n is only 2 dB worse. So if you have to get by
without a mixer, it's feasible.

--
Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom
Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design
Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com

Oleg Kaizerman

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 3:44 pm

Guest

I think that if you are working with deva and shure , you might put the
shure in line with deva outs , give a reference tone on deva then
calibrate the shure , decried the output by 10 db on master potisiometer
and calibrate the camera on -20dfs , that way the camera will see more
pleasant level and the miters will match the devas

--
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland

"Jay Rose CAS" <SEE-SIGFILE@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:SEE-SIGFILE-1405041257110001@192.168.1.100...

Quote:

The Canon XL-1 seems to offer some sort of confidence monitoring.
During a take on a shoot many months ago, I heard a dropout or skip of
some sort. I asked for a playback and it was in the picture as well.
I don't know what the problem was, but the camera was relaying
information about the recorded signal.

It might be monitoring E-E (the Sony PD150 definitely doesn't), which
would let you know know if there's a problem with the system clock or CPU.
But if it were true confidence monitoring you'd hear a delay, and a
disruption when going from pause to record. Also, if it were true
confidence monitoring, you can bet Canon would be bragging about it;
nobody else has that feature at the price.

the sound bar on dvx display is that the firs red is -12 dbfs the
third
wite is about -18, -20 dbfs...

Just don't record with tone / mixer zero at -20 dBFS, even if you use that
level for Deva or DAT. With a line input, the DVX100's dynamic range is
only 72 dB (fullscale to noise floor, analog in to digital out); recording
with zero at -12 dBFS will give you a 60 dB s/n.

With a -50 dBu mic input, s/n is only 2 dB worse. So if you have to get by
without a mixer, it's feasible.

--
Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom
Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design
Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com

Guest

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 8:13 pm

Thanks for all the great mentoring..
Have a few days left on this... We were moving pretty quick,
so I thinned out the pack lightened it up alot.. Put ther
Deva to Bed,
and got back to simple..... Monitored from the Cam on the
mini plugs..
couple wireless and a Schoeps/ 816 into the shure then Split
the outs to another camera. (ugh, I think IF I ever do
another one of these I will use the Zaxcom stereo wireless
to send to the cameras, what a pain all these cables.. I
guess I'm to spoiled with double system and Features for
this stuff..

(Thanks Oleg
The fellow that owns the 100a is knowledgeable and a good
guy.
It all Sounded fine.... There Happy.. The Camera guys, Ive
know for years this was there first time not sooting Film...

..If I get a chance tomorrow I'll try the Phono mon outs.

Sincerely
Ron Scelza CAS

Wolf

Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 1:54 pm

Guest

from my book:

Panasonic AG-DVX-100

Mini-DV 3-CCD camcorder that supports 480i/60 (NTSC), cinema-style
480p/24fps and 480p/30fps image capture. List price $3,795. It offers
16-bit/48kHz digital audio with two built-in XLR inputs; phantom power
supply (48V) mic power switch on side ON/OFF for CH 1 + 2; manual audio
volume controls (ch1/ch2 independent) lower left side on bottom [tape
them off], Line/Mic switch-ability in front of camera, 3.5mm stereo mini
for phones, there are menu settings for ALC (turn it off, till you
understand what it does!!) it is displayed on the LCD, 16 bit/48K 2CH,
or 12 bit/32 KHz 4 CH record. (use 16 bit/48K 2 CH), sample rate (16 or
12) is displayed in lower left of LCD. In menus there is a mic
sensitivity -50 or -60 (for condensers use -50) setting, ALC is defeated
when using line input and CANNOT be turned on. It only works for mic
input. I wonder if the mic preamps are completely bypassed in line
input? I've heard that the first red mark is -12dbFs so if you want -18
or -20 backing it off from the 1st red mark about 3 or 4 notches will do.

TC with 24P frame value has to be set to 0 or a multiple of 5, there is
DF and NDF, rec/run or free run TC. Here is no TC IN or OUT. There is no
indication in the literature that 24P is really 23.9. It is though! 23.9
progressive frames are repeated in the usual 3:2 pattern to fill the
usual 29.9 recorded frames on tape. There are two ways of doing this:
"regular" and "advanced." Editors will disassemble this to a 23.9
pattern on capture. As of 2003, FCP should be able to handle this.
Technical help: 800-222-0741 Excellent detailed info at www.24p.com
<http://www.24p.com/>.

Read the manual at:
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/manuals/OM_AG-DVX100.pdf

http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/dvproline/index.html

Exposure On The DVX-100 read
http://www.cinematography.net/ExposureOnTheDVX-100.htm

AG - DVX100 Prone To Drop Outs read
http://www.cinematography.net/AG-DVX100ProneToDropOuts.htm

In 23.976 mode this camera appears to have a 1-frame audio advance in
the output file on the NLE, in 60i mode up to two frames. This will not
be obvious till you load the 1394 connection into an NLE.
(http://www.adamwilt.com/24p#AVSync). Many of these cams (including the
comparatively high-end DSR-500) 1-field audio advance is due to lack of
audio delays to resync to picture while picture is being
compressed-uncompressed. It takes time till this is written to tape.
Look at 2-pop <http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/www.2-pop.com/>'s AG-DVX100
forum
<http://2-pop.5thavehosting.com/cgi-bin/discussion/forums/panasonicAGDVX100camera.cgi>
at
http://www.uemforums.com/2pop/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=PanasonicAGDVX100Camera
<http://www.2-pop.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php>

You can also start the TOD code manually close to the portable DAT
code. It's better than nothing!

JRose sais:

Signal to noise:

Measured with an ATB+, balanced analog input to FireWire digital output
(not the headphone amp), nominal = -12 dBFS. S/N measured to -12 dBFS,
so add +12 dB headroom for total dynamic range.

Line input can be set to either -10 dBV (.14% THD+N, s/n 60 dB) or up to
-- unlike PD150 -- +4 dBu (.4 % THD+N) without serious clipping. A -10
input level is recommended.

With -35 dBu (hot) mic: .16% THD+N 58 s/n.

With -50 dBu mic: .18% THD+N, 58 dB s/n

The above might not impress you, but it's on the better side of miniDV
recorders. Freq sweep (-10 dBV input) relative to 1 kHz, -2 dB points
at 25 Hz and 18 kHz. Very narrow dips (about 1/4 oct) -5 dB at 180 and
320 Hz. That's -incredible- for a miniDV recorder.

Post considerations aside the Panasonic probably sounds better than most
typically-maintained Nagra IV at 7.5 ips with low-print tape. In
real-world terms this is the first prosumer camera I've seen with decent
audio. Keep your rental and go double-system, but you might want to
suggest to production that you also feed the camera. Feed it at -10 dBV,
that is; +4 dBu doubles the distortion (it -is- prosumer!). DVX100 will
take +4 dBu, but it likes -10 better. Distortion jumps from .14% to .44%
with the hotter signal.) Jay Rose, June 2003 check dv.com for full article

walawala@bellsouth.net wrote:

Jay Rose CAS

Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 5:08 pm

Guest

In article <lAupc.16814$6f5.1478503@attbi_s54>, Wolf
<BADwolfvidGOOD@comcast.net> wrote:

Quote:

....I wonder if the mic preamps are completely bypassed in line
input?

I don't think so:

Line level dynamic range (noise to FS): 72 dB, analog in to printed on
tape, measured with ATB+.
Mic level (-50 dBu): 70 dB.

If it -is- bypassing the preamp, then it's one heck of a noisy volume
control and ADC.

Quote:

... I've heard that the first red mark is -12dbFs so if you want -18
or -20 backing it off from the 1st red mark about 3 or 4 notches will do.

Yes, the mark in all miniDV cameras I've tested is at -12 dBFS. It's the
recommended operating point for this kind of prosumer equipment. If you
put zero on the mixer at -20 dBFS, you'll have only a 52 dB s/n.

--
Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom
Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design
Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com

Guest

Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 6:27 am

Re: Stereo Link Multi camera, single system sound Questions

Hi Group

All is going very well.. Sounds fine, thier happy. Few days
left..

Saying goodby to all of those parallel snakes:
Frequency Agile Lectros to save my back....
What is your standard ENG day rate for lectros?

Got to make a couple of cables today... XLR pinout to
Lectronsonics UM200C?

Lots of hand held, some sticks...
Is it best to put the Lectro receivers in another bag and
place them near or hang them on the cameras?

What is the least cumbersome mounting of the receivers to
hand held VDX 100 cameras or operators?

Thanks again
Sincerely
Ron Scelza CAS

<walawala@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:9Zepc.33969$su1.11896@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

Quote:

Thanks for all the great mentoring..
Have a few days left on this... We were moving pretty
quick,
so I thinned out the pack lightened it up alot.. Put ther
Deva to Bed,
and got back to simple..... Monitored from the Cam on the
mini plugs..
couple wireless and a Schoeps/ 816 into the shure then
Split
the outs to another camera. (ugh, I think IF I ever do
another one of these I will use the Zaxcom stereo wireless
to send to the cameras, what a pain all these cables.. I
guess I'm to spoiled with double system and Features for
this stuff..

(Thanks Oleg
The fellow that owns the 100a is knowledgeable and a good
guy.
It all Sounded fine.... There Happy.. The Camera guys,
Ive
know for years this was there first time not sooting
Film...

.If I get a chance tomorrow I'll try the Phono mon outs.

Sincerely
Ron Scelza CAS

Charles Tomaras

Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 11:38 pm

Guest

"Jay Rose CAS" <SEE-SIGFILE@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:SEE-SIGFILE-1505041908490001@192.168.1.100...

Quote:

In article <lAupc.16814$6f5.1478503@attbi_s54>, Wolf
BADwolfvidGOOD@comcast.net> wrote:

....I wonder if the mic preamps are completely bypassed in line
input?

I don't think so:

Line level dynamic range (noise to FS): 72 dB, analog in to printed on
tape, measured with ATB+.
Mic level (-50 dBu): 70 dB.

If it -is- bypassing the preamp, then it's one heck of a noisy volume
control and ADC.

It's interesting that AGC is NOT available when using line input. That fact
kind of makes me wonder if the AGC was part of the micpre circuit and not
available in line input because the mic pre was bypassed. I don't
know...just thinking out loud.

Charles Tomaras

Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 11:43 pm

Guest

<walawala@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:q4Jpc.19848$GV5.18622@bignews4.bellsouth.net...

Quote:

Re: Stereo Link Multi camera, single system sound Questions
Is it best to put the Lectro receivers in another bag and
place them near or hang them on the cameras?

What is the least cumbersome mounting of the receivers to
hand held VDX 100 cameras or operators?

For Handycam work I put my Lectro receivers in the small orginal Portabrace
wireless pouch (the kind that straps on to the front of Portabrace mixer
bags) with a coiled stereo (5 pin) cable that breaks out to two XLR's. I put
a small shoulder strap on the pouch so the operator can wear it over
shoulder and only have to deal with the coiled cable connecting to the
camera. Works great and everyone loves it. If they go to sticks they can
just set it on the floor or hang it from the tripod.

Charles Tomaras
Seattle, WA

Guest

Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 6:17 am

"Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
news:C5GdnVlVZ8NnzTXdRVn-ig@comcast.com...wireless pouch
(the kind that straps on to the front of Portabrace mixer

Quote:

bags) with a coiled stereo (5 pin) cable that breaks out
to two XLR's. I put

Hi Charles,
Thanks for Chiming in on this one.... Your posts helped me
get on the right track......Thats what I'll do or something
simular
I have couple of 4' 4ch snakes laying around . Only have
one porabrace bag for wireles, but Ill find something that
will work for this .. Sounds neat..

I was thinking of getting some case foam and setting the
receivers
into molded slots then into over the sholder bag...

Thanks again
Ron Scelza CAS

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