Macintosh Laptops and SMPTE timecode questions

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Matt

Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 5:22 pm

Guest

Hello all,

I was considering getting a G4 Powerbook to use for backing up
non-linear audio and as a playback device for music videos. Problem
is, I don't know which software will allow me to generate and output
timecode for a Mac. I also would like to be able to just make my own
audio packs from the master recording to bypass the need for a third
party. Does anyone know which software I should look at and what sort
of interface I would need to accept timecode into a Mac as well as
output it? I know you can output TC on an audio track, so output is
not as big a deal. But, sometimes folks want to do slo-mo and I would
need to be able to put out a faster version of the audio AS WELL AS a
faster version of the timecode. Any ideas on how to do this in
software or maybe a link to more information about this? It seems
really easy, but gets weirder the more I think about it.

Thanks in advance,

Matt

Peter

Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 6:36 pm

Guest

Look at the Digigram VXPocket cards. There's one with analog, digital
and TC in and out. I believe they come with some sort of workstation
software but I dont know anything about it.
Also, many TC displays can handle code at increased speed as they were
used in post to locate while winding, so TC in an ordinary audio track
is in the realm of the possible.
Peter

In article <e2b4ecac.0405041522.3945ddbf@posting.google.com>,
matt@gorillasound.com (Matt) wrote:

Quote:

Kurt Albershardt

Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 6:38 pm

Guest

Matt wrote:

Quote:

I don't know which software will allow me to generate and output
timecode for a Mac.

Most all of the better DAW packages will output MTC, which can be converted externally to LTC or VITC.

Quote:

what sort
of interface I would need to accept timecode into a Mac as well as
output it? I know you can output TC on an audio track, so output is
not as big a deal.

http://www.digigram.com/products/getinfo.htm?prod_key=9000 can read LTC.

Jeff Wexler

Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 10:16 pm

Guest

Quote:

In article <e2b4ecac.0405041522.3945ddbf@posting.google.com>,
matt@gorillasound.com (Matt) wrote:

Hello all,

I was considering getting a G4 Powerbook to use for backing up
non-linear audio and as a playback device for music videos. Problem
is, I don't know which software will allow me to generate and output
timecode for a Mac.

Much of the software that I know of does not handle SMPTE timecode as this
is considered a "professional" feature and the companies would like you to
spend a lot of money on their software and hardware if you are a
professional. So, Digidesign's ProTools LE does not support timecode (true
SMPTE code) but the additional DV Toolkit option ADDS timecode capabiility
(but costs an additonal $700. I think). All of the high end packages on all
platforms Do handle SMPTE but they are very expensive.

A lower cost alternative could be The Mark of the Unicorn (MOTU) stuff which
is priced considerably lower than many of the other solutions. The software
is quite good even if you go with just Audio Desk and the hardware interface
could be the Audio 828 mk II. This may still be too expensive.

Peter's suggestion of the Digigram PCMCIA card with breakout cables could
solve the hardware side (I don't know what they cost) but Digigram's Mac
support seems to be a little spotty (heavily weighted to Windows XP users).
The only software mentioned at their website, for the Mac, appears to be
some version of Cubase (which in my experience is not very good software).
It also remains to be seen that even though the various Digigram cards
support timecode I/O, the software that the card supports on the Mac may
not.

If you really just want to use your Mac to run playbacks with timecode,
almost any software (even only 2 tracks) you could record program on one
track, audio, and timecode on another track, audio, feed the TC to a reader.
This can all be done with simple Mac software (Sound Studio, for example,
$60.00) and a simple hardware interface or the built in Mac audio ports
(depending on what computer you have).

Regards, Jeff Wexler

Frank Kruse

Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 12:35 am

Guest

I don´t know any DAW software that is able to output a sped up TC
(varispeed) continuously. I guess you will have to transfer tc to an
audio track and pitch that with a plug-in but it will lose any
relation to the actual timeline TC in the software.

frank.

matt@gorillasound.com (Matt) wrote in message news:<e2b4ecac.0405041522.3945ddbf@posting.google.com>...

Quote:

nappy

Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 7:59 am

Guest

look at MOTU firewire interfaces.
"Matt" <matt@gorillasound.com> wrote in message
news:e2b4ecac.0405041522.3945ddbf@posting.google.com...

Quote:

Jay Rose CAS

Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 9:28 am

Guest

Quote:

I don´t know any DAW software that is able to output a sped up TC
(varispeed) continuously...

Just for the record:

The Audicy VX (software/integrated hardware/dedicated OS) will

- output correct timecode during varispeed play, emulating either LTC
(frame length changes) or VITC (frames repeat/skip)

- control a Sony protocol deck via RS422 with 1-frame accuracy during varispeed

The latter feature is nifty for checking lipsync and sfx placement: press
the 'half-speed play' button, watch pix in sync, and you can really see if
there are errors.

Disclaimer: I designed its chase/machine control functions.

Other disclaimer: That was five years ago.

--
Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom
Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design
Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com

Matt

Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 5:21 pm

Guest

First of all, Jeff, thank you very much.

I have a few more questions, though:

Quote:

Peter's suggestion of the Digigram PCMCIA card with breakout cables could
solve the hardware side (I don't know what they cost) but Digigram's Mac
support seems to be a little spotty (heavily weighted to Windows XP users).

Thanks for the warning. I am not aware of any Digigram cards that
have TC output. They only have TC input. However, let me propose
something and see what you think. I could get a Denecke Syncbox, plug
it into the input on the Digigram, and record an audio track of this
while also inputing the audio from a CD.

Quote:

If you really just want to use your Mac to run playbacks with timecode,
almost any software (even only 2 tracks) you could record program on one
track, audio, and timecode on another track, audio, feed the TC to a reader.
This can all be done with simple Mac software (Sound Studio, for example,
$60.00) and a simple hardware interface or the built in Mac audio ports
(depending on what computer you have).

That is true, but my bigger problem is that I do not own a TC DAT
machine or another TC source. So, I guess the initial question should
have included the idea that I need a way to generate timecode in the
computer. I think this is more a post question the more I get into
it. I am trying to understand the total process from post house to
set to post house in order to see what services I could offer in the
middle or from the beginning to my clients. I know you have a
digibeta usually with TC on it that must line up with the TC on the
set DAT or computer or whatever. So, I guess the idea of just
plugging any old timecode into an audio track does not work. Although
I guess the timecode could just be slipped (but it would be a pain
with all the short takes). This is specifically for music videos. I
guess I could just request a CD from the post house with left mono
audio and right TC audio and dump that into Sound Studio or etc. I am
just looking at other possible income streams.

Thanks,

Matt

Brian McDonald

Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 5:29 pm

Guest

MOTU Digital Performer has time code capabilities. After looking at
the digigram VXpocket's specs, it looks like DP and their product,
using the ASIO, would work fine. My concern would be the quality of
the digigram card and cross talk between it and the laptop. I don't
know for sure that this is a problem, but it would be a good thing to
investigate. All of the MOTU interfaces require AC power, so you'll
have to take that into consideration.

-Brian

Frank Kruse

Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 5:29 pm

Guest

that is very interesting info! is this the software that comes with the vxpocket?

thanks,

frank.

SEE-SIGFILE@rcn.com (Jay Rose CAS) wrote in message news:<SEE-SIGFILE-0505041128260001@192.168.1.100>...

Quote:

I don´t know any DAW software that is able to output a sped up TC
(varispeed) continuously...

Just for the record:

The Audicy VX (software/integrated hardware/dedicated OS) will

- output correct timecode during varispeed play, emulating either LTC
(frame length changes) or VITC (frames repeat/skip)

- control a Sony protocol deck via RS422 with 1-frame accuracy during varispeed

The latter feature is nifty for checking lipsync and sfx placement: press
the 'half-speed play' button, watch pix in sync, and you can really see if
there are errors.

Disclaimer: I designed its chase/machine control functions.

Other disclaimer: That was five years ago.

Kurt Albershardt

Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 5:58 pm

Guest

Matt wrote:

Quote:

I could get a Denecke Syncbox, plug
it into the input on the Digigram, and record an audio track of this
while also inputing the audio from a CD.

Unless you also lock your computer's wordclock to the same crystal as the TC source, you could have problems this way.

Quote:

I need a way to generate timecode in the computer.

Your computer's clock reference is not likely to be very stable. If your DAW package generates an LTC output locked to the WC source (most likely the sound card's ADC clock) you would at least have the two in sync and the decoding of LTC is up to other machines you feed.

Jeff Wexler

Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 8:39 pm

Guest

On 5/5/04 4:21 PM, in article
e2b4ecac.0405051521.64b75cb3@posting.google.com, "Matt"
<matt@gorillasound.com> wrote:

Quote:

This would be a very easy and simple solution now that I understand your
potential application in doing music videos. It could be even simpler if you
just play out the CD directly --- why bother with a computer? DJ style CD
players can set cue points on the fly, provide instant start and so on. I
have done music playback in just this way (and I have also done it off my
PowerBook).

Regards, Jeff Wexler

Fernando

Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 2:31 am

Guest

I agree. I always take a CD player as a backup for music videos. I ask
the production company to send in advance both DAT and CD. If I use
the CD player, I send audio (ch.1) to the PA with a light wireless and
TC (ch.2) to the slate via a TC wireless link. This rig is ultra-light
and all battery operated, and do it's duty very well. I also use a
200W RMS biamped portable speaker with wheels that can run from it's
own battery for about 5 hours.
You could do that with a laptop, but I do not trust computers on
location (unless is a UNIX type of OS, wich is more reliable, but
anyway) If you finally use a computer, (it could be advisable to) make
a separate partition on the HD and install the system and the apps you
really need and keep it clean and fast (do not use it for anything
else) This way it will be -a bit- more reliable.
One advantage I see in using a computer is that you can have many
marks in the audio file matching different sections of the song. But
if it hangs you have to wait for it to restart. Using OSX is a good
idea since it has a very nice memory protection (so you can abort just
the hanged app) and if you have to restart it's quite fast (OSX
10.3.3)
But remember, the studio will send to your producer the DAT and/or CD
with the TC in it. You should not need to burn in the timecode.
Occasionally, the playback DAT has music on ch.1 and a camera-speed
control-signal on ch.2 and also TC on it's dedicated track. This way
they can vary the camera speed while keeping the TC constant. This
worked great. Be aware some slates (at least the first version of the
Denecke TS-3, now solved) will not read well TC with speeds faster
than 40 fps or so, so they will not work with 50fps, 100fps or
varispeed TC. If you have to rent the slate better go for a TS-2 or an
Ambient if you are not shure of how recent is the TS-3 they offer.

Fernando

Quote:

I guess I could just request a CD from the post house with left mono
audio and right TC audio and dump that into Sound Studio or etc. I am
just looking at other possible income streams.

Thanks,

Matt

This would be a very easy and simple solution now that I understand your
potential application in doing music videos. It could be even simpler if you
just play out the CD directly --- why bother with a computer? DJ style CD
players can set cue points on the fly, provide instant start and so on. I
have done music playback in just this way (and I have also done it off my
PowerBook).

Regards, Jeff Wexler

Courtney Goodin

Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 10:54 am

Guest

"Jeff Wexler" <notjeff@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:BCBEF380.13BE4%notjeff@earthlink.net...

Quote:

On 5/5/04 4:21 PM, in article
e2b4ecac.0405051521.64b75cb3@posting.google.com, "Matt"
matt@gorillasound.com> wrote:

why bother with a computer? DJ style CD
players can set cue points on the fly, provide instant start and so on. I
have done music playback in just this way (and I have also done it off my
PowerBook).

One thing that is not mentioned here is that if you are shooting in the US

and using FILM at 24 FPS . The playback track that the record companies give
you will usually be a DAT with 29.97 TC or a 2 Track tape or CD with
timecode on 1 audio channel. The audio Track and Time Code need to be pulled
up .1% for playback on the set. So everything will stay in sync for a long
take. Putting the TC at 30.00fps while shooting. So after NTSC telecine,
the resulting pulled down .1% picture will sync back to the standard speed
digital master tracks and their 29.97fps TC. Many people just ignore the
sync slippage, since lip-sync isn't that precise and usually they never stay
on a single shot longer than a few seconds in most twitchy music video's
these days. But if it is for a long vocal performance or multi-camera
concert style video you should do the pull up so things don't drift off too
quickly.

If your Dat machine has the capability of pulling up .1% that would be an
easy way to playback but involves rewinding for each take. I just use a
program like IQS Software Audio Workshop on a PC laptop. It can do pull-up
..1% and output several channels of audio. I just put the 29.97 LTC on one
of the audio tracks and with the playback pull-up it becomes 30.00fps TC.
fed to the slate. I'm sure there are programs on the MAC that can do the
same thing. The computer makes for excellent playback with easy marking of
precise start points and instant start, stop and reset. Plus, if they need a
count-off or click track that was not on the original material it is easy to
record one and fly it in on another track to the correct position without
disturbing the original TC and music.

---Courtney Goodin

Charles Tomaras

Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 1:48 am

Guest

"Courtney Goodin" <cmgoodin@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:95umc.60865$hb1.33790@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...

Quote:

If your Dat machine has the capability of pulling up .1% that would be an
easy way to playback but involves rewinding for each take. I just use a
program like IQS Software Audio Workshop on a PC laptop. It can do pull-up
.1% and output several channels of audio. I just put the 29.97 LTC on one
of the audio tracks and with the playback pull-up it becomes 30.00fps TC.
fed to the slate. I'm sure there are programs on the MAC that can do the
same thing. The computer makes for excellent playback with easy marking of
precise start points and instant start, stop and reset. Plus, if they need
a
count-off or click track that was not on the original material it is easy
to
record one and fly it in on another track to the correct position without
disturbing the original TC and music.

---Courtney Goodin

For those of us who can't deal with percentage but need to change the sample
rate from a CD supplied playback track...what does 44.1 resample to to
achieve the pull-up?

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