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Movies Forum Index » Movie Technology Forum » Technicolor "Kodachrome" 16mm prints?
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| Peter Mason |
 Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:08 am |
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As anybody heard of a process whereby 16mm color copies of 3-strip
Technicolor films were printed onto Kodachrome color print film?
Apparently this was occasionally done in the forties. I know that
there were 16mm Technicolor dye-transfer prints but this is something
different again. What were the 16mm Kodachrome prints actually printed
from?
Regards,
Peter Mason |
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| Jeff Joseph |
| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:58 am |
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There wasn't 16mm dye-transfer printing until around 1947 or so (and those
were the famous "Blue track" prints). So if you wanted a 16mm color print
of Technicolor film, you had to make a Kodachrome print.
Certainly the Universal color titles were printed this way (I've seen a
few), but I presume others were as well.
Jeff Joseph
SabuCat Productions
"Peter Mason" <cinemad@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5665b2ea.0312192108.222e67f0@posting.google.com...
Quote: As anybody heard of a process whereby 16mm color copies of 3-strip
Technicolor films were printed onto Kodachrome color print film?
Apparently this was occasionally done in the forties. I know that
there were 16mm Technicolor dye-transfer prints but this is something
different again. What were the 16mm Kodachrome prints actually printed
from?
Regards,
Peter Mason |
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| Martin Hart |
| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:22 am |
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In article <5665b2ea.0312192108.222e67f0@posting.google.com>,
cinemad@hotmail.com says...
Quote: As anybody heard of a process whereby 16mm color copies of 3-strip
Technicolor films were printed onto Kodachrome color print film?
Apparently this was occasionally done in the forties. I know that
there were 16mm Technicolor dye-transfer prints but this is something
different again. What were the 16mm Kodachrome prints actually printed
from?
Regards,
Peter Mason
Yes, it was a common practice in the 1940s, and to a very much lesser
degree in the early 1950s, to print Technicolor 35mm films down to 16mm
Kodachrome. I haven't read anything on the subject for over 40 years but
it was apparently done by Disney to a great extent. Technicolor made the
Kodachrome prints. I don't have any details on the printing process, but
it's probable that it was a three pass operation using positives from
each color record with the appropriate filter.
It's interesting to note that the old ViewMaster 3-D photos were
duplicated in Kodachrome, though this probably stopped when GAF (Ansco)
bought out Sawyers.
--
Marty
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum |
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| Giovanni Abrate |
| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:53 am |
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Marty,
you beat me to the View Master comment!
And, yes, GAF stopped the process and used very graini GAF stock for the
reels, to the detriment of the system.
Giovanni
(who collects View Master and similar 3D viewers and reels)
"Martin Hart" <see-address@website.listed.below.org> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a4dd0f7817f73f998969a@news-server.houston.rr.com...
Quote:
It's interesting to note that the old ViewMaster 3-D photos were
duplicated in Kodachrome, though this probably stopped when GAF (Ansco)
bought out Sawyers.
--
Marty
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum |
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| Martin Hart |
| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:53 pm |
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In article <gvYEb.823$zC4.845836@news2.news.adelphia.net>,
tryphon@adelphia.net says...
Quote: Marty,
you beat me to the View Master comment!
And, yes, GAF stopped the process and used very graini GAF stock for the
reels, to the detriment of the system.
Giovanni
(who collects View Master and similar 3D viewers and reels)
Giovanni, how does the color in the GAF stock hold up? I'd assume that
there is some fading by now.
--
Marty
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum |
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| Clive Tobin |
| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:54 pm |
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It seems to me, in my Alpha Cine Lab (Seattle)days which ended in 1984, that
for a while we were processing Viewmaster prints on Estman color positive
for the Portland operation.
The stock was 16mm wide perforated 1R-1500 (8mm) on one edge, using 3 perfs
per frame, kind of like 1½ frame high Super-16. I don't recall which color
positive stock was the norm at the time. Or exactly when the time was. We
were probably doing it very cheaply to underbid Teknifilm in Portland. I
don't know if it was optically printed or contact printed.
Clive Tobin
www.tobincinemasystems.com
"Giovanni Abrate" <tryphon@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:gvYEb.823$zC4.845836@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Quote: Marty,
you beat me to the View Master comment!
And, yes, GAF stopped the process and used very graini GAF stock for the
reels, to the detriment of the system.
Giovanni
(who collects View Master and similar 3D viewers and reels) |
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| JohnW248 |
| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:36 pm |
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In article <MPG.1a4dd0f7817f73f998969a@news-server.houston.rr.com>, Martin Hart
<see-address@website.listed.below.org> writes:
Quote: It's interesting to note that the old ViewMaster 3-D photos were
duplicated in Kodachrome, though this probably stopped when GAF (Ansco)
bought out Sawyers
I think it had more to do with a change in the Eastman stock. The Viewmasters
were printed on 5269 Eastman Reversal Color Print film and when it was replaced
with 7387, it required a new re-vamp of the processing machine, there were some
initial problems (cyan stains) and the contrast of the new stock was higher.
Up til that point, Viewmaster was the largest independent processor of Eastman
Reversal Color Print film (Kodachrome).
Many of the early 16mm reduction prints were actually made from 35mm color
positive prints and not seps. These would all date back to the "yellow" or
silver sulfite track period of 5265 and early 5269 print stocks. Later versions
of 5269 had the silver track thru double application in processing.
It's certainly possible that a reduction print could be made from YCM Silvers,
but it's hard to imagine the cost considering how slow those reduction printers
were and that it would take three passes for each reel. Of course, labor was
much cheaper back then.
John |
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| Clive Tobin |
| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:01 pm |
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"JohnW248" <johnw248@aol.com> wrote
.... These would all date back to the "yellow" or
Quote: silver sulfite track period of 5265 and early 5269 print stocks.
That's "silver sulfide." Produced by a single application of viscous sodium
sulfide (or similar) solution before the color developer.
Clive Tobin
Nitpickers... er, fact checkers R Us
p.s.- Season's greetings |
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| Peter Mason |
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:30 am |
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johnw248@aol.com (JohnW248) wrote in message news:<20031221173639.23171.00002831@mb-m05.aol.com>...
Quote: In article <MPG.1a4dd0f7817f73f998969a@news-server.houston.rr.com>, Martin Hart
see-address@website.listed.below.org> writes:
It's interesting to note that the old ViewMaster 3-D photos were
duplicated in Kodachrome, though this probably stopped when GAF (Ansco)
bought out Sawyers
I think it had more to do with a change in the Eastman stock. The Viewmasters
were printed on 5269 Eastman Reversal Color Print film and when it was replaced
with 7387, it required a new re-vamp of the processing machine, there were some
initial problems (cyan stains) and the contrast of the new stock was higher.
Up til that point, Viewmaster was the largest independent processor of Eastman
Reversal Color Print film (Kodachrome).
Many of the early 16mm reduction prints were actually made from 35mm color
positive prints and not seps.
Wouldn't this have caused excessive contrast in the 16mm prints?
Regards,
Peter Mason |
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| JohnW248 |
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:33 pm |
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In article <vuf4stbk732i5e@corp.supernews.com>, "Clive Tobin"
<kill@eat.spammers> writes:
Quote: That's "silver sulfide." Produced by a single application of viscous sodium
sulfide (or similar) solution before the color developer.
You realize that I've been making that sulfite/fide error for over 30 years
now.
John
(Season's Greetings, For those that don't know, both Clive and I share the Alma
Mater of Alpha Cine) |
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| JohnW248 |
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:33 pm |
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Guest
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In article <5665b2ea.0312230030.15c0a09@posting.google.com>,
cinemad@hotmail.com (Peter Mason) writes:
Quote: Wouldn't this have caused excessive contrast in the 16mm prints?
Sure it did, have you seen any of these prints? Most US color stocks of the 40s
and 50s were high contrast. It was also the norm in Magazine advertising. Over
time tastes change.
John |
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| Derek Gee |
| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:16 pm |
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"Martin Hart" <see-address@website.listed.below.org> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a4e3a7f2090e07098969d@news-server.houston.rr.com...
Quote: In article <gvYEb.823$zC4.845836@news2.news.adelphia.net>,
tryphon@adelphia.net says...
Marty,
you beat me to the View Master comment!
And, yes, GAF stopped the process and used very graini GAF stock for the
reels, to the detriment of the system.
Giovanni
(who collects View Master and similar 3D viewers and reels)
Giovanni, how does the color in the GAF stock hold up? I'd assume that
there is some fading by now.
To the best of my knowledge, View-Masters were never printed on Ansco stock.
When Sawyer's purchased Tru-View in 1951, they redesigned the Tru-View
product from a 35mm roll film to a card stock with 16mm size images. They
printed them on Eastmancolor stock to save money. Sawyer's later dropped
the use of Kodachrome from their own View-Master reels before GAF bought
them (and ruined them). Whatever EK stock they were using, it fades a bit
over time. How much fading depends on how they were stored. I have one
packet that was unopened, but came from Florida. Every image in it was
pink!
Derek |
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| Giovanni Abrate |
| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:28 am |
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My take is a little different.
Right after GAF took over Sawyers (I believe it was 1971) they did switch to
GAF (formerly ANSCO) color stock. It was a very fast film and very, very
grainy. I have several reels from that period and they have faded orange.
The TRu-View slides have faded to monochrome orange, but that's a different
story!
Giovanni
"Derek Gee" <dgeeSPAMBITES@INVALID.twmi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:eumGb.60005$031.341@fe3.columbus.rr.com...
Quote: "Martin Hart" <see-address@website.listed.below.org> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a4e3a7f2090e07098969d@news-server.houston.rr.com...
In article <gvYEb.823$zC4.845836@news2.news.adelphia.net>,
tryphon@adelphia.net says...
Giovanni, how does the color in the GAF stock hold up? I'd assume
that
there is some fading by now.
To the best of my knowledge, View-Masters were never printed on Ansco
stock.
When Sawyer's purchased Tru-View in 1951, they redesigned the Tru-View
product from a 35mm roll film to a card stock with 16mm size images. They
printed them on Eastmancolor stock to save money. Sawyer's later dropped
the use of Kodachrome from their own View-Master reels before GAF bought
them (and ruined them). Whatever EK stock they were using, it fades a bit
over time. How much fading depends on how they were stored. I have one
packet that was unopened, but came from Florida. Every image in it was
pink!
Derek
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| Martin Hart |
| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:23 am |
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In article <uAuGb.2019$zC4.2242801@news2.news.adelphia.net>,
tryphon@adelphia.net says...
Quote: My take is a little different.
Right after GAF took over Sawyers (I believe it was 1971) they did switch to
GAF (formerly ANSCO) color stock. It was a very fast film and very, very
grainy. I have several reels from that period and they have faded orange.
The TRu-View slides have faded to monochrome orange, but that's a different
story!
Giovanni
The Ansco 8mm stock was positively dreadful. As a matter of fact, ALL
standard 8mm color films other than Kodachrome provided very grainy
images. Sometimes the films came back from the labs already beginning
the fading process. Standard 8mm double run roll film was sold under a
wide variety of brand names, mostly store brands. Suppliers were Ansco-
GAF, Ferrania, and Agfa. You could save money with these films but you
sure didn't get anything close to Kodachrome II or later emulsions.
Spectacular, just spectacular.
Marty
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum |
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| Giovanni Abrate |
| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 10:18 am |
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I remember watching "Forbidden Planet" at a private screening room with
Dario Argento and a bunch of other italian cinephiles and it had been
printed on 35mm Ferraniacolor stock.
It had faded Cyan. It is the only colr film I have seen that faded Cyan and
not Pink or orange.
Giovanni
"Martin Hart" <see-address@website.listed.below.org> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a545a6290117289896a2@news-server.houston.rr.com...
Quote: Standard 8mm double run roll film was sold under a
wide variety of brand names, mostly store brands. Suppliers were Ansco-
GAF, Ferrania, and Agfa. You could save money with these films but you
sure didn't get anything close to Kodachrome II or later emulsions.
Spectacular, just spectacular.
Marty
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum |
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