| |
 |
|
|
Hobby Forum Index » Equestrian » "...the cult-like world of barefoot trimming"...
Page 1 of 4 Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
|
| Author |
Message |
| Ocean of Nuance... |
 Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:19 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| cindi... |
| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:19 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Jul 3, 4:19 pm, Ocean of Nuance <lizzardwomanRM... at (no spam) nc.rr.com>
wrote:
I don't believe in making stuff like trimming horses hooves without
license illegal. I don't believe in most of those sorts of laws
involving victimless crimes, based on laws set up by the government as
babysitter. I don't have a problem at all with voluntary
certification programs and whatnot, and I am myself certified by
American Riding Intructors Association. But as they say, let the
buyer beware. If somebody hurts your horse, use the law as
appropriate to remedy the situation, and blame yourself as appropriate
for using somebody you didn't check out fully enough... Even vets can
hurt horses, so licensing isn't the answer...
This part of the article is patently untrue:
"What concerns me is the growing number of organisations here in
Europe and the US professing to have found the perfect way to trim
horse’s feet in order for them to go unshod. And guess what? Each one
is different! This is Marketing, where a product needs a USP: a Unique
Selling Point. Just how many ways can there be to trim a hoof to
emulate a natural unshod hoof? Which method is right and is it worth
the risk finding out? Even more important is whether it is applicable
to a domesticated horse."
The systems are all WAY more similar than not. Way. And any
differences are minor differences based on individuals - conformation,
diet, use, husbandry.
This is untrue also:
"The students seem completely brainwashed by whichever barefoot guru
they chose to follow and put one in mind of disciples who slavishly
follow every regime or process without thought or reference to more
traditional hoofcare methods. In fact they are discouraged from
considering anything outside of what they are taught and only to use
products supplied and approved by their teachers. "
I don't know a single barefoot trimmer who has ever said or would ever
say that his or her way is the One True Way. All the ones I know of
or have talked to about this say it's great to study with different
people and learn from everybody. Now people on the fringe of barefoot
like, for some reason, to think that it's cultish like that, but I
have never experienced that and I'm in the midst of barefoot and so
more likely to know, hm? My own trimmer has consulted with other
trimmers and has welcomed me to consult with others and even use
others for trims if I want to compare or learn from somebody else.
All the ones I know are humble like that. Maybe there are some in the
world somewhere that are not, but you can't stereotype them as
cultish. I think that's just fear and snootiness.
"The hoof wall becomes sodden in winter and softens causing the whole
hoof capsule to spread and collapse. Horizontal and vertical cracks
start to appear; white line disease and thrush become rampant. Soles
start to collapse, become bruised and abscesses result. Frogs rot and
become infected. Any hoof balance the trimmer might have introduced is
lost as the walls spread and the heels collapse."
That is positively untrue also, in any sort of across the board
fashion. I can tell you for sure that nobody doing "barefoot"
properly and for any length of time is having this happen to them - or
they'd stop doing barefoot! My horses stand in pastern deep mud and
water all winter long[1] and none of them we've transitioned to
barefoot, NONE, have had this happen. None. Most transition and
leave (because they are sold) but of the ones that stuck around/stick
around thru a full winter and spring, that number is around 40. All
different breeds.
Now back when I had just plain ol' unshod horses, those things did
happen, you betcha. The trim was not right.
I am sure Abby can tell us all that Jaime Jackson and Pete Ramey are
two of the most humble, down to earth guys you could ever hope to
meet. There is no "my way", there is no "buy my stuff only", nothing
like that.
cindi
[1] Just to clarify, they are not standing in small pens in this mud
and water - their entire pasture floods in this fashion in the
winter. That's how central CA flat lands are irrigated - they are set
up to hold water in, and in the summer we flood them with our
irrigation systems, and the water lingers for a day or two but
eventually evaporates/enters the ground. Then we do it again in a
week or so. In the winter the ground becomes saturated and the water
doesn't sink in anymore. It used to bother me a lot because horses
would lose shoes and we couldn't ride them until the shoe was back
on... That problem is no more. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Splash... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:04 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Jul 5, 10:56 pm, "Emily Brooks" <sun... at (no spam) bellsouth.net> wrote:
Quote: "Jeff" <rather... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cl5074harbjdul0l316d85nl7v0vvjtb2o at (no spam) 4ax.com...
My biggest problem with bare feet, was that when a horseshoe with 400
lbs atop it comes down on a bare toe on a cement driveway- it tickles
some.
Jeff
Make that nearly 1200 as the beast ground my foot into the concrete, shod..
Three days after doing the other set of toes, but this time barefoot and
into the rubber mats over dirt in the aisle, during his farriery
appointment. *I* was wearing sturdy shoes the first time - minimal damage..
Second time, on the concrete, I was in my riding boots which are less
protective and he aimed exactly for the one remaining screw in my foot. Less
visible damage but that foot hurts in there somewhere now.
Emily
Must we have this conversation again?
Isn't this just "horses for courses" under a different name?
Depending on your use of the horse and the terrain you are using it on
it "may" or "may not" need shoes.
Never the twain shall meet.
Excuse me for being blunt but I just had to endure another round of
Sox having to be tranqed enough to knock out an elephant to have shoes
put on him. I live on an island affectionately known as " The Rock".
The local ponies (Newfoundland Ponies) can go unshod for the best
part. NOTHING else can survive the terrain unshod despite local
barefoot fanatics whose horse are chronically lame.
If your terrain is ROCKY AND you ride it frequently shoe your danged
horse!!!
I'm a tad touchy on the subject. I'd give my eye teeth to have Sox
barefoot! He can handle a trim but the minute he sees iron or nails,
he becomes possessed! Barefoot would NOT cut it on our terrain.
Period, full stop.
This is a ridiculous argument! KNOW your horse and judge yourself
accordingly.
Excuse my bad day!
Splash and the poorly shod Sox cause you try holding up a horse that
requires 6 ccs of interavenous tranquilizer to be shod.
Suggestions (beyond the obvious) are gratefully accepted as long as
they don't include shooting the horse!
Splash |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Barbara Bailey... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:18 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Splash <s_pike44 at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in
news:8a4954d7-67b6-48f8-84b1-88ab7ff73c62 at (no spam) d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
Quote: Splash and the poorly shod Sox cause you try holding up a horse that
requires 6 ccs of interavenous tranquilizer to be shod.
Suggestions (beyond the obvious) are gratefully accepted as long as
they don't include shooting the horse!
Only half tongue-in-cheek, but, is there any way to rig a sling to help
hold him up while he's tranqed wobbly? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Emily Brooks... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:56 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Jeff" <rathernot at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cl5074harbjdul0l316d85nl7v0vvjtb2o at (no spam) 4ax.com...
Quote:
My biggest problem with bare feet, was that when a horseshoe with 400
lbs atop it comes down on a bare toe on a cement driveway- it tickles
some.
Jeff
Make that nearly 1200 as the beast ground my foot into the concrete, shod.
Three days after doing the other set of toes, but this time barefoot and
into the rubber mats over dirt in the aisle, during his farriery
appointment. *I* was wearing sturdy shoes the first time - minimal damage.
Second time, on the concrete, I was in my riding boots which are less
protective and he aimed exactly for the one remaining screw in my foot. Less
visible damage but that foot hurts in there somewhere now.
Emily |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Jeff... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:01 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 20:05:32 +0100,
green_knight at (no spam) greenknight.org.uk.invalid (Catja Pafort) wrote:
Quote: My take on this is that if a horse is able to go barefoot, it will be
comfortable when the shoe is off, and stay so. If that isn't the case,
my experience is that it won't get better, and you're much better off
having the horse shod properly, so that it can grow stronger,
better-shaped feet, so it can eventually go barefoot. (That, at least,
was Crumble's journey - he went up two sizes in the period he was shod
and eventually was able to go barefoot.)
My old horse would be fine on gravel, rocks etc some of the time,
yet other times would be so tenderfooted she'd veer off to find a
cushy grass zone on the edge of the road- barefooted.
Yet there were also times when she'd be just as sore with shoes on.
Never did find out why--- phases of the moon? change in diet?
early symptoms of her degenerating spine?
The biggest problem with bare feet, since I rode every day, was that
it simply wore her hooves too much.
My biggest problem with bare feet, was that when a horseshoe with 400
lbs atop it comes down on a bare toe on a cement driveway- it tickles
some.
Jeff
Quote:
Would I watch a horse in pain for months? Are you kidding? There's no
guarantee that the horse *will* be able to move (and work) barefoot, and
to keep it in pain for months on the off-hand chance that it might...
no. Just no.
Catja |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Emily Brooks... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:32 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Splash" <s_pike44 at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8a4954d7-67b6-48f8-84b1-88ab7ff73c62 at (no spam) d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Suggestions (beyond the obvious) are gratefully accepted as long as
they don't include shooting the horse!
Splash
As I was screaming at my beastie yesterday, along the lines of "think he's
going to die for 3 seconds", shooting did not seem too far-fetched :-)
Emily |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Bill Kambic... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:30 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:19:37 -0400, Ocean of Nuance
<lizzardwomanRMOVE at (no spam) nc.rr.com> wrote:
Some horses can do "barefoot," some can't. If a horse NEEDS shoes
it's likely a cruelty to deny them. If it doesn't it's a waste of
assets to pay for them.
I just finished a pretty good book by Lt. Col. Louis A. DiMarco, USA
(Ret) entitled "The War Horse." It's an overview of the use of the
horse as a "weapons system." He limits his exploration to Asian,
European, and North American usage.
He discusses the organization, tactics, horses, and husbandry of the
Mongols in some detail. They are, arguably, the most successful
military horse culture in history. In general shoes were not used by
the steppe armies. Shoes were known and the blacksmith was an honored
man (the successor to Timojin (sp), known in the West as Genghis Khan
was Ogodai Khan, son of a blacksmith). The army was organized by the
decimal system, with a squad of ten men being the basic unit, and
moving up by tens to the tumen, a "division" of 10,000 men. Each
warrior had between four and six horses. He also had more than one
set of tack, but generally not one for each horse.
The general rate of march for a steppe army was about 14 miles per
day. They could move MUCH faster for short periods of time (as much
as 130 miles in 48 hours) but that could not be done frequently.
Riders could switch mounts while moving.
Behind the warriors came the "camp." Yurts, wagons, and carts of all
sorts supported the warriors. A man was permitted to bring his family
on campaign.
Mongols liked to campaign in winter for a number of reasons. Their
horses were very hardy and could forage for grass under several inches
of snow. Rivers were frozen, making them "highways," not "barriers."
They had a very well developed "supply" system that could support a
winter campaign. Few of their adversaries had any winter operational
capability.
The Mongols also had a highly developed "staff" system. When Gen.
Subotai proposed to The Great Khan an invasion of Western Europe the
Khan agreed and spies were dispatched. For more than five years they
traveled Eastern and Central Europe making maps of roads, noting
military capabilities, analyzing political alliances, etc. Then a
"recon in force" of 30,000 warriors spent three years engaging Russian
principalities before rejoining the main Mongol Army.
Based upon Subotai's intelligence, Genghis Khan approved a plan to
conquer Europe all the way to the Atlantic. He would use his conquest
of China as a model and estimated it would take 18 years. A Mongol
army of 50,000 Mongol veterans, supported by large numbers of Chinese
and other auxiliaries and engineers was assembled.
Genghis Khan died before the operation was fully underway and was
replaced by Ogadai Khan. Under his leadership the Mongol forces began
by invading Russia, and eventually conquering Poland and Hungary.
Their press on into Europe was cut short when Ogadai Khan died and
Subotai retired with his army back to Mongolia to choose a new
emperor. They never returned to as a conquering force, but did leave
forces behind to protect and continue exploiting the conquered
territories in Russia.
They did all of this on mostly barefoot horses. The Mongol horse was
short (13 hands, more or less; taller horses were known and Ogadai
gave orders that larger horses be sent to China to improve the size
and quality of the Mongol horse). It was a very tough animal with
very good feet. It also seldom moved very far or very fast and when
it did seldom carried a warrior more than 1/6 the total distance (as
each warrior could have six horses). The army frequently would stop
in a well watered area with good forage and graze their herd (which
could exceed 100,000 horses per tumen, including draft animals).
The Mongols also had an extensive "post" system (like a "pony
express") for moving official documents, orders, etc. There is some
evidence that these horses were larger and were shod. Their job,
however, was not to carry a warrior 14 miles a day but to carry a post
rider 15-20 miles (the distance between stations) in a couple of
hours. The difference in job required a different horse and a
different standard of husbandry.
The Mongols understood that you used the right kind of horse for the
right job and gave it what it needed to do that job. They were not
tied to "systems" and "movements."
Maybe we can still learn stuff from them. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Brian Whatcott... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:16 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:39:38 -0400, Ocean of Nuance
<lizzardwomanRMOVE at (no spam) nc.rr.com> wrote:
Quote: .... this time aspect
when discussing BF and whether a horse should walk off sound or not from
a BF trim.
sharon
You might do better to inquire about the average relative humidity
and average annual rainfall of locations where owners report
reasonable results with barefoot horses (as we do here) - as simple as
that. Sorry the mumbo-jumbo element is rather lacking in this approach
:-)
Brian W |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| ... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:41 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Splash <s_pik... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote: I'd still be interested to hear if anyone knows anything about these
"stock" things? It is NOT impossible locally to perhaps get my hands
on one?
You do have to break the horse to stocks, just like you have to break
them to shoe.
When I was looking after the Knowles' Percherons, it was very
difficult to find a farrier who would shoe them. We finally found
someone who was wonderful - reliable and did good work. But when she
became pregnant, she asked us to get stocks so she could continue
doing them.
Now, Mike and Molly were pretty good to shoe. But they were large,
and Molly has EPSM, so she tended to lose her balance a bit and lean.
Sable had a great deal of difficulty extending at the shoulder, so she
had to be finished with her foot really low and close, on a block. We
didn't want to lose this farrier, so we bought stocks.
Well, they go in the stocks, which confine them much like being in a
straight-load horse trailer. Then their legs, one at a time, of
course, rest on a support and get fastened to the posts. If the horse
doesn't know what's going on, and has never been broke to yield to
pressure when its foot is imobilized, it ain't pretty. Since I had no
idea how the things worked, I didn't practice with them until the
farrier arrived.
It was pure hell. We ended up with three shod, but sore as hell,
Perchies. Sable had a hematoma on her chest that took weeks to
resolve, and Mica's already compromised stifle was much worse. It was
the only time I have ever seen Molly bug-eyed and frightened. It
sucked.
If you get them, I hope you have an opportunity to have them
demonstrated so you can gently desensitize your guy to them, and teach
him to give to the pressure and use the supports as intended. Of
course, by the time you get through all that, he'll probably be pretty
well broke to shoe without stocks.  Personally, with older horses
who've been led to believe that cooperation is optional, I've had much
better, injury-free results, simply tying a foot up. YMMV.
Nancy DeMarco
Mason, NH |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| cindi... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:13 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Jul 6, 6:41 pm, NancyD.... at (no spam) gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
If you get them, I hope you have an opportunity to have them
demonstrated so you can gently desensitize your guy to them, and teach
him to give to the pressure and use the supports as intended. Of
course, by the time you get through all that, he'll probably be pretty
well broke to shoe without stocks. Personally, with older horses
who've been led to believe that cooperation is optional, I've had much
better, injury-free results, simply tying a foot up. YMMV.
Here's some info on stocks/a chute from a local "wild horse mentor":
http://www.kbrhorse.net/tra/hchute01.html
cindi |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Barbara Bailey... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:20 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Splash <s_pike44 at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in
news:3d327e83-d067-4d1f-ad5a-ebe19a379729 at (no spam) m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
Quote: On Jul 6, 8:56 am, "Joyleen E. Seymour" <joyleenseym... at (no spam) earthlink.net
wrote:
Barbara Bailey wrote:
Splash <s_pik... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in
news:8a4954d7-67b6-48f8-84b1-88ab7ff73c62 at (no spam) d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.co
m:
Splash and the poorly shod Sox cause you try holding up a horse
that requires 6 ccs of interavenous tranquilizer to be shod.
Suggestions (beyond the obvious) are gratefully accepted as long
as they don't include shooting the horse!
Only half tongue-in-cheek, but, is there any way to rig a sling to
help hold him up while he's tranqed wobbly?
Our wild burro is trimmed tranqed, and the farrier puts her up
against the wall, wall on her left if he's trimming the right, wall
on the right if he's trimming the left. If that's not overstating
the obvious. :
-)
Thanks for the tongue in cheek and not so tongue in cheek suggestions.
The Farrier has described to me old time "stocks". As I understand it
the horse is strapped into this wooden contraption that literally
allows for no escape or chance of the farrier of getting hurt! I
would actually spill blood to at least look at these things.
Well, these
<http://www.comforthoofcare.com/>
are modern and for cows, but I suspect the principle is the same; a
snugly confining space that doesn't allow the animal to move in any
direction -- portable walls, if you will.
More links:
Building shoeing stocks:
<http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/shoeingstock/shoeingstock.htm>
It's got some nice photos of the construction of a set of shoeing stocks,
and includes the author's name and contact information and an invitastion
to get in touch with him with any questions.
Here's a shoeing sling (this is more what I was thinking of, since it
could be moved out of the way when the shoeing is done and stored in a
smaller space thasn a set of stocks.:
<http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/Gem_5-15-2000_sling_trim.jpg>.
Here's the treatment stocks at Morgan Equine Veterinary and Farrier
Hospital:
<http://www.morganequine.com/hospital.htm>
These are Amish design shoeing stocks:
http://www.fearlessfarrierservice.com/whatistheshop.htm
Quote: I'd still be interested to hear if anyone knows anything about these
"stock" things? It is NOT impossible locally to perhaps get my hands
on one?
Where's "locally"?
Quote: Sounds like a lazy way to shoe but I'm getting desperate.
What's lazy about it. If he has to be tranqed to the point that he's
leaning or wobbly, he needs to be held up. That's not lazy. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Barbara Bailey... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:33 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Splash <s_pike44 at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in
Quote:
Splash and the poorly shod Sox cause you try holding up a horse that
requires 6 ccs of interavenous tranquilizer to be shod.
Is he fighting, or just tranqed to the point of clumsyness and "I just
wanna lay down-ism"? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Laurel Reddick... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:03 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 17:37:53 -0700 (PDT), Splash <s_pike44 at (no spam) hotmail.com>
wrote:
Quote: snip
The Farrier has described to me old time "stocks". As I understand it
the horse is strapped into this wooden contraption that literally
allows for no escape or chance of the farrier of getting hurt! I
would actually spill blood to at least look at these things.
The BO had the option of buying "stocks" when he purchased his
Percheron MANY moons ago. Apparently the horse had never been shod
without it (them??). He opted out not believing them neccasary for
Logger. They weren't. He has told me they would have "fit" Sox
perfectly as Sox is a draft cross (half Perch as irony will have it).
It is a sign of true desperation that I would LOVE to see these
"stocks" to at least study/consider them. I wonder does anyone out
there know anything about them?
A sling may not be out of the question if this doesn't resolve
itself. The farrier for the RCMP musical ride was consulted. I'm
afraid a bullet IS out of the question, sigh. Leaning Sox against a
wall has been tried. Sadly he is less than cooperative.
Fortunately this is a limited problem. Our summers last approximately
4 months (OK maybe a tad longer but it feels like four months!) When
the snow flies here the shoes come off. Trimming is never an issue.
Who's have thunk I'd wish for snow?!
Thanks for the suggestions though. I LOVE this horse beyond reason.
It kills me to have to go through this with him. In every other way
he is my dream horse!
I'd still be interested to hear if anyone knows anything about these
"stock" things? It is NOT impossible locally to perhaps get my hands
on one?
Sounds like a lazy way to shoe but I'm getting desperate.
Again, thanks for any and all suggestions and concern.
Hi Splash.
I think this is a version of stocks. It wasn't safe for the guy
branding, but there are different kinds out there. I'll be phoning my
farrier friend tonight so I'll ask what he does with the uncooperative
young ones. I know he was recently kicked by a 3 year old coming in
off the range after winter. He shoes for guest ranches in the
Cariboo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4aAXapOScA&feature=related
Laurel |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Joyce Reynolds-Ward... |
| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:55 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 13:11:45 -0400, Ocean of Nuance
<lizzardwomanRMOVE at (no spam) nc.rr.com> wrote:
Quote: Joyce Reynolds-Ward wrote:
(snip)
Myself, I believe if the horse needs 'em, put 'em on. Otherwise,
don't. Mine goes better with, so she gets them.
But I think this response is unacceptable to them because they think
you're wrong about your conclusion (your horse goes better with them)
because your premises are wrong (not enough time BF, wrong trim, wrong
environment, etc.).
That's my guess.
Well, and you'd be right about that (I've heard some of it here
already). But barefoot is not the priority for me that other things
(access to quality trainer, full care, ability to work a stressful
full time day job and still have a horse) are.
I'm kinda curious about how many aggressively barefoot people a.)
board their horses and b.) work a full time day job that isn't a
strict 8 hour job. Some aspects of the Barefoot Plan seem to require
either amenable boarding facilities or your own place, and of course
the time to spend daily with the horse. Daily access I can't
have--that's why I board at a reliable place.
jrw |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
Page 1 of 4 Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
The time now is Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:21 am
|
|