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| Tom Watson |
 Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:14 pm |
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A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
edge?
I'm talking about a screw that goes into the board for 1-1/4".
Glad to hear an opinion.
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage) |
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| Ed Clarke |
| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:17 pm |
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On 2005-02-10, Tom Watson <notme@erehwon.com> wrote:
Quote: A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
[snip]
You DO have to use special screws in particle board. Take a look
at this first, then do a search on particle board in their search bar.
http://www.mcfeelys.com/multiple.asp?productID=9015-HD
I hate particle board - mdf/hdf/osb - all glue with a waste material
binder. Only place I use it is for the extension table on my
unisaw and on a couple of sliding tables for power tools.
--
I can find no modern furniture that is as well designed and emotionally
satisfying as that made by Gustav Stickley in the early years of the last
century. |
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| Chuck Hoffman |
| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:17 pm |
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There is no "grain" to particleboard, end or otherwise. It is made up of
small, randomly oriented fragments of wood fiber (basically sawdust) in a
resin binder. Threaded fasteners frequently fail in particleboard because
there is little structural integrity to the material.
The fix for your particular problem is to bore out the failed screw hole,
glue in a hardwood dowel, drill a pilot hole and reinstall the screw.
"Tom Watson" <notme@erehwon.com> wrote in message
news:1s8l011nj5s7ek0pnhhk4rumkhrun06ebl@4ax.com...
Quote: A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
edge?
I'm talking about a screw that goes into the board for 1-1/4".
Glad to hear an opinion.
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage) |
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| Will |
| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:17 pm |
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I have see the presses that make this stuff and have learned the
manufacturing process. DAMW!
These boards are actually (usually) multi layered - again most boards
are 4 to 6 layers. (Fiber, resin, fiber, resin, fiber,resin, fiber -
then cook in the press - cookie sheet or continuous roller style) There
is "some orientation" of the fibers in particle board and fiber board.
Again - depends on the board and the manufacturer. Been through a lot of
plants... Never saw any that weren't like this - but somebody always
knows more. :-)
There is a normally a finer layer of fibers on the outside (face) of the
board (except -- I think -- on the very coarsest boards - the Oriented
Strand Board -- OSB style). My own experience is that screws hold better
on the face - not the ends. probably this is due to the press action and
a greater compression 90 deg. to the face of the board.
Next time you are in the lumber yard take a close look at the
construction of the different styles -- you should be able to see the
layers. MDF is usually the easiest to see the layering.
Just wear a dust mask when you cut that crud.
Tom Watson wrote:
Quote: A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
edge?
I'm talking about a screw that goes into the board for 1-1/4".
Glad to hear an opinion.
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek |
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| skeezics |
| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:17 pm |
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On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:05:42 -0500, Tom Watson <notme@erehwon.com>
wrote:
Quote: A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
edge?
I'm talking about a screw that goes into the board for 1-1/4".
Glad to hear an opinion.
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
Wellll i gots my own thoughts on PB as well but we wont go into that!
lol.. :-]> as far as i can tell its all end grain! however screws do
seem to hold better into the face side. you absolutely must pre bore
it though as i'm sure you are aware. and glue the heel outta it too !
is there some way to incorporate real wood into the mix where the lock
is? just a thought.
skeez |
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| Lawrence L'Hote |
| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:26 pm |
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"Chuck Hoffman" <chuck94560@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:_eyOd.3408$aW6.1006@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
Quote: There is no "grain" to particleboard, end or otherwise. It is made up of
small, randomly oriented fragments of wood fiber (basically sawdust) in a
resin binder. Threaded fasteners frequently fail in particleboard because
there is little structural integrity to the material.
The fix for your particular problem is to bore out the failed screw hole,
glue in a hardwood dowel, drill a pilot hole and reinstall the screw.
....or maybe, glue the dowel at right angles to the screw. A screw into the
endgrain of most any wood is a weak attachment. This is a picture of
something I did last summer rebuilding a desk. The pine serves as a
substrate for a quarter inch oak plywood top glued to the substrate. I
drilled the holes 5/8" with a Forstner bit and used hardwood dowels. Also I
used pocket screws predrilled through the oak trim on the desk edge. The
screw holes were then plugged with matching oak. Of course, I realize that
my suggestion just might not be feasible for this particular problem.
http://home.mchsi.com/~lhote5/deskedge.jpg
Larry
--
Lawrence L'Hote
Columbia, MO
www.llhote.com |
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| Paul Kierstead |
| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:21 am |
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Tom Watson wrote:
Quote:
I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
Well, particle board can refer to a variety of things but..
Considering the considerable difference in paint sucking ability of MDF
on its edge vrs. its face, I would have to say it is oriented in some
fashion.
For the sheet goods made of coarser chips, it is quite evident from
looking at it that the press process orients the chips "flat"; this
would indeed make it directional. This is probably true for MDF as well,
it is just harder to observe; anything composite made of non-symmetrical
bits would tend to exhibit this I would think.
OTOH, man-made materials is certainly not my field of expertise.
PK |
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| Mark and Kim Smith |
| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:57 am |
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<snip>
Quote: I would like to know if my fellow
Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
snip
No. |
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| Dave Balderstone |
| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:17 am |
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In article <_eyOd.3408$aW6.1006@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>, Chuck
Hoffman <chuck94560@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Quote: There is no "grain" to particleboard, end or otherwise. It is made up of
small, randomly oriented fragments of wood fiber (basically sawdust) in a
resin binder.
Randomly oriented in three dimensions?
I think not.
They may be randomly oriented in the horizontal plane but they are
oriented horizontally in layers. Therefore, there is end grain.
As Paul sez, compare the paint sucking ability of edge vs face.
djb
--
"The thing about saying the wrong words is that A, I don't notice it, and B,
sometimes orange water gibbon bucket and plastic." -- Mr. Burrows |
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| BobK207 |
| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:17 am |
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Quote: mdf/hdf/osb - all glue with a waste material
binder.
Particle board, MDF & OSB are all quite different products.; they all
have their uses. MDF has decent strength, machines well & accepts
paint well. It is not particle board but it isn't furniture grade
hardwood either.
Particle board is just that; made of wood particles; not much better
than coarse sawdust.
MDF is made from wood fibers that are generated by breaking down wood
chemically to the fiber level.
OSB is made from wood species that cannot be "peeled"; but can chipped
or flaked.
That said; the faces of all particle board, MDF & OSB are denser than
the edges, thus generating "end grain" or directionality behavior.
Source of info:
f2f discussion with APA wood specialists
cheers
Bob |
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| Unisaw A100 |
| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:14 am |
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walking by, sees a pot, sees the stick sticky from it,
tempted to stir but realizes, not enough time in the day and
moves along...
Burma Shave
UA100 |
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| Phisherman |
| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:15 am |
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I call it an "edge" rather than an "endgrain." In any event, there
are special screws for particleboard. I have had success using a
piano hinge (lots of small screws) to attach an MDF door. A screw
in the edge is more likely to fail than into a face due to more
support in the surrounding area.
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:05:42 -0500, Tom Watson <notme@erehwon.com>
wrote:
Quote: A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
edge?
I'm talking about a screw that goes into the board for 1-1/4".
Glad to hear an opinion.
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage) |
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| Tom Watson |
| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:18 am |
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On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:05:42 -0500, Tom Watson <notme@erehwon.com>
wrote:
Quote: A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
edge?
I'm talking about a screw that goes into the board for 1-1/4".
Glad to hear an opinion.
Physical Properties*
Density 45 lbs/cu ft
Internal Bond 80 psi
Modulus of Rupture 1900 psii
Modulus of Elasticity 340,000 psi
Screw Holding - Face 235 lbs
Screw Holding - Edge 180 lbs
*Physical properties tested by using method ASTM D 1037-91
http://www.collinswood.com/M1_WoodProducts/M1H4A1_Particleboard.html
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage) |
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| Andy Dingley |
| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:18 am |
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On 10 Feb 2005 00:16:38 GMT, Ed Clarke <clarke@cilia.org> wrote:
Quote: I can find no modern furniture that is as well designed and emotionally
satisfying as that made by Gustav Stickley in the early years of the last
century.
If we accept modern as "last 100 years", then we've just missed the
timeslot for a designer you'd surely agree was better than Stickley -
Harvey Ellis. Looking at any of the "Gustav Stickley" designs the
good stuff is Ellis', the lumpy ugly ones are Gustavs. Sadly the
rarity of their sales was such that Gustav's are now rarer and more
valuable.
Although I do accept your general point, it's also a little unfair to
some of the less well-known but equally skilled designers of recent
years - some of whom are working very much in Stickley's (or Ellis')
style itself. |
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| Robatoy |
| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:11 pm |
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In article <krpm01tmdjajadqkropd8077dpcvp5td19@4ax.com>,
Andy Dingley <dingbat@codesmiths.com> wrote:
[snip]
Quote: If we accept modern as "last 100 years", then we've just missed the
timeslot for a designer you'd surely agree was better than Stickley -
Harvey Ellis. Looking at any of the "Gustav Stickley" designs the
good stuff is Ellis', the lumpy ugly ones are Gustavs. Sadly the
rarity of their sales was such that Gustav's are now rarer and more
valuable.
I like the mission look and I have looked at Stickley's work up close.
Clean, simple lines. All the joints fit nicely. The finish seems durable.
But what is the big deal?
Allow me...
The big deal is that speculators and dealers got into the fray of
pushing the market of that stuff way over its value. Over 300 grand for
a frickin' desk? Say what? Did VanGogh paint the frickin' thing? Are
there diamond knobs on it? Did Rolex make the drawer tracks? Did Noah
joint the boards for the top? Gimme a break.
Because it is collectable doesn't make it great work or design.
Hell, some clown paid $150,000 for a Plymouth Satellite at a recent
auction. That was a bad car in its day. But somebody wanted it THAT bad.
Quote:
Although I do accept your general point, it's also a little unfair to
some of the less well-known but equally skilled designers of recent
years - some of whom are working very much in Stickley's (or Ellis')
style itself.
Man, I couldn't agree more. I have seen WAY better guitar players in
bars that any of those on the top Bilboard 100. (Sliding OT here..but my
point is that just because they're high profile/mega buck stars does not
mean they have talent)
I have seen some excellent furniture from small shops all around Ohio,
Upstate NY, PA even in Ontario and Quebec. That goes for design and
execution of the craft.
A joint can only be made 'so' perfect. Design is in the eye of the
beholder and particularly pleasing if it functions well. And I cannot
recall when I saw a piece and thought it was beautifully made, but ugly.
Holy crap...look at the time..
GONE
0?0
Rob |
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