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| Lisa Morgendunst |
 Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:35 am |
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Ever see sci-fi movies where alien critters look like giant insects?
Now, why can't insects be as big as mammals?
Or were they once but big ones all died out. If so, why?
Or is there something in the dna of insects that limits their size?
Is it because the insect brain is too small to control a larger body?
Can insects evolved into superinsects as smart as people or are they
condemned to remain stupid?
Another question. Is it at least theoretically possible for humans to
evolve into flying creatures?
If piglike creatures can turn into whales, is it outlandish to at
least theorize man with wings? Or, is there something in the human dna
that denies that kind of ability ever being possible? |
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| Marv Raybin |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:55 am |
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Size Limitations
a.. Molting - insects shed their exoskeleton when it becomes too small for
them. During this time they are vulnerable to predators. Vulnerability
increases with increasing size of the insect and thus limits the size
attainable by such animals.
b.. Breathing - the method of breathing used by insects limits growth as
well. Because gas exchange occurs directly, a large body would make it
impossible for gases to get from the air to the cells without some type of
transport system.
Marv
"Lisa Morgendunst" <lisamorgendunst@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2780a446.0401022135.1f2582b@posting.google.com...
Quote: Ever see sci-fi movies where alien critters look like giant insects?
Now, why can't insects be as big as mammals?
Or were they once but big ones all died out. If so, why?
Or is there something in the dna of insects that limits their size?
Is it because the insect brain is too small to control a larger body?
Can insects evolved into superinsects as smart as people or are they
condemned to remain stupid?
Another question. Is it at least theoretically possible for humans to
evolve into flying creatures?
If piglike creatures can turn into whales, is it outlandish to at
least theorize man with wings? Or, is there something in the human dna
that denies that kind of ability ever being possible? |
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| Marv Raybin |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:49 am |
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Heaviest Flying Birds
a.. The Kori Bustard or paauw (Ardeotis Kori) of northeast and southern
Africa and the great bustard (Otis tarda) of Europe and Asia weigh about
40-42 pounds. There is a report of a 46 lb. 4 oz. male great bustard shot in
northeastern China. It was too heavy to fly.
Heaviest Birds of Prey
a.. Andean condors (Vultur gryphus) are the heaviest species of bird of
prey. Males weigh 20-27 pounds and have a wingspan of at least 10 feet. A
male California condor (Gymnogyps californianus) preserved in the California
Academy of Sciences is reported to weigh 31 pounds. It is rare for the
species to exceed 23 pounds in weight.
Marv
"Lisa Morgendunst" <lisamorgendunst@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2780a446.0401022135.1f2582b@posting.google.com...
Quote: Ever see sci-fi movies where alien critters look like giant insects?
Now, why can't insects be as big as mammals?
Or were they once but big ones all died out. If so, why?
Or is there something in the dna of insects that limits their size?
Is it because the insect brain is too small to control a larger body?
Can insects evolved into superinsects as smart as people or are they
condemned to remain stupid?
Another question. Is it at least theoretically possible for humans to
evolve into flying creatures?
If piglike creatures can turn into whales, is it outlandish to at
least theorize man with wings? Or, is there something in the human dna
that denies that kind of ability ever being possible? |
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| Steven Litvintchouk |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:47 am |
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Lisa Morgendunst wrote:
Quote: Another question. Is it at least theoretically possible for humans to
evolve into flying creatures?
No.
Da Vinci's ornithopter didn't work, for the same reason. Not enough
strength in proportion to our weight.
But it's certainly possible for humans to evolve into swimming mammals.
What would be needed is for humans to evolve the ability to live on salt
water, as whales do.
I think that Dougal Dixon wrote a book about such possibilities but I
don't remember the title.
-- Steven L. |
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| A.E. Jabbour |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:38 am |
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In rec.arts.movies.past-films Lisa Morgendunst <lisamorgendunst@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: Now, why can't insects be as big as mammals?
Or were they once but big ones all died out. If so, why?
Or is there something in the dna of insects that limits their size?
[snip]
Didn't you see "Mimic"? All is explained. :)
--
A.E. Jabbour
"Dancer in the Dark" is one of the most sadistic
films I've ever seen, but it also raises the
possibility that sadism might be, in spite of itself,
a species of love." - A.O. Scott |
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| rms |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:18 pm |
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You are neglecting extinct species, in particular giant Pterodons.
rms |
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| Lisa Morgendunst |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:36 pm |
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"Marv Raybin" <raymarv@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<LHtJb.5198$dW5.3644@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>...
Quote: Size Limitations
a.. Molting - insects shed their exoskeleton when it becomes too small for
them. During this time they are vulnerable to predators. Vulnerability
increases with increasing size of the insect and thus limits the size
attainable by such animals.
b.. Breathing - the method of breathing used by insects limits growth as
well. Because gas exchange occurs directly, a large body would make it
impossible for gases to get from the air to the cells without some type of
transport system.
Marv
But, I recall seeing actual size models of insects long before even
the age of dinosaurs and these bugs were HUGE!!! Dragonfly like
creatures almost as big as humans.
Quote:
"Lisa Morgendunst" <lisamorgendunst@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2780a446.0401022135.1f2582b@posting.google.com...
Ever see sci-fi movies where alien critters look like giant insects?
Now, why can't insects be as big as mammals?
Or were they once but big ones all died out. If so, why?
Or is there something in the dna of insects that limits their size?
Is it because the insect brain is too small to control a larger body?
Can insects evolved into superinsects as smart as people or are they
condemned to remain stupid?
Another question. Is it at least theoretically possible for humans to
evolve into flying creatures?
If piglike creatures can turn into whales, is it outlandish to at
least theorize man with wings? Or, is there something in the human dna
that denies that kind of ability ever being possible? |
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| Philo D |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:37 pm |
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In article <2780a446.0401022135.1f2582b@posting.google.com>, Lisa
Morgendunst <lisamorgendunst@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: Ever see sci-fi movies where alien critters look like giant insects?
Now, why can't insects be as big as mammals?
Or were they once but big ones all died out. If so, why?
Or is there something in the dna of insects that limits their size?
DNA? no. It's physics. Your college biology class should have
explained this to you. The square-cube law. Remember?
Quote: Is it because the insect brain is too small to control a larger body?
Can insects evolved into superinsects as smart as people or are they
condemned to remain stupid?
Another question. Is it at least theoretically possible for humans to
evolve into flying creatures?
If piglike creatures can turn into whales, is it outlandish to at
least theorize man with wings? Or, is there something in the human dna
that denies that kind of ability ever being possible? |
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| Bryan Derksen |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:55 pm |
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On 3 Jan 2004 10:36:33 -0800, lisamorgendunst@yahoo.com (Lisa
Morgendunst) wrote:
Quote: "Marv Raybin" <raymarv@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<LHtJb.5198$dW5.3644@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>...
Size Limitations
a.. Molting - insects shed their exoskeleton when it becomes too small for
them. During this time they are vulnerable to predators. Vulnerability
increases with increasing size of the insect and thus limits the size
attainable by such animals.
b.. Breathing - the method of breathing used by insects limits growth as
well. Because gas exchange occurs directly, a large body would make it
impossible for gases to get from the air to the cells without some type of
transport system.
Marv
But, I recall seeing actual size models of insects long before even
the age of dinosaurs and these bugs were HUGE!!! Dragonfly like
creatures almost as big as humans.
IIRC, there was a lot more oxygen in the air at that particular period
of history - something like 30%. Those insects would probably die to
death almost immediately if they reappeared on Earth today. |
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| Bob Tiernan |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:58 pm |
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Lisa Morgendunst wrote:
Quote: Now, why can't insects be as big as mammals?
It's npt that they're so small, but that most everything
else is much bigger than they are.
Bob T |
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| Ben Crowell |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:10 pm |
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Quote: DNA? no. It's physics. Your college biology class should have
explained this to you. The square-cube law. Remember?
For more info, see ch. 1 of this online book:
http://www.lightandmatter.com/area1book1.html
But mechanical scaling arguments just show that a spider the size of an
elephant would have to have legs as thick as an elephant's, not that a
spider the size of an elephant is impossible. The subthread about molting
and gas exchange is on target about why there's a limit on size.
--
e-mail info: http://www.lightandmatter.com/area4author.html |
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| Juergen Peters |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:48 pm |
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In Message <9v7evvg9ra9bag33aiqo0o6qes99rb6jjn@4ax.com> bryan.derksen@shaw-
spamguard.ca says...
Quote: But, I recall seeing actual size models of insects long before even
the age of dinosaurs and these bugs were HUGE!!! Dragonfly like
creatures almost as big as humans.
IIRC, there was a lot more oxygen in the air at that particular period
of history - something like 30%. Those insects would probably die to
death almost immediately if they reappeared on Earth today.
And those dragonflies were long (not as humans, only 75 cm wingspan), but
only 1-2 cm narrow. There was no big volume, the passively transported
oxygen had no long way to go.
--
Best regards, Juergen Peters
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Juergen Peters, FidoNet 2:2432/344
Borgholzhausen, Germany
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |
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| Christian Weisgerber |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:08 pm |
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Lisa Morgendunst <lisamorgendunst@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: Ever see sci-fi movies where alien critters look like giant insects?
Now, why can't insects be as big as mammals?
Or were they once but big ones all died out. If so, why?
Actually, the largest living insect (the weta of New Zealand), is
substantially bigger than the smallest mammal (a type of pygmy
shrew), so there is some overlap of their ranges. And there were
some larger insects in the past.
The primary reason that limits insect growth is their lack of lungs.
Insect breathing is more or less limited by diffusion, which only
works for small body sizes. Also, the stability of their exoskeleton
may not scale with the corresponding weight increase. Insects are
a very, very successful class in their size range, but their body
plan simply doesn't scale to the size of all but the smallest mammals
and birds.
Quote: Can insects evolved into superinsects as smart as people or are they
condemned to remain stupid?
Since insects cannot evolve to the size of people they cannot evolve
brains of human size, which suggests that they can't reach human
intelligence. Whether you can in principle evolve a more compact
biological brain architecture is unclear, but starting from insects
this seems extremely implausible.
Quote: Another question. Is it at least theoretically possible for humans to
evolve into flying creatures?
Yes and no. Yes, it is possible, but probably not in the way you
imagine.
Quote: If piglike creatures can turn into whales, is it outlandish to at
least theorize man with wings?
Yes, men with wings like popular portrayals of angels simply won't
work on Earth. They are too heavy. The largest flying animal ever
was the quetzalcoatlus, a pterosaur with a wingspan of 12 meters,
a weight of maybe 50kg, and a body structure very different from a
human. And that animal was probably more a glider and not the type
of wing-flapping flyer like modern birds. Also, flying requires a
lot of energy and no flying animal can support a brain that consumes
10% of the creature's total energy output like the human one does.
If you want to evolve flying creatures from humans, think bats. In
fact, bats may be the mammalian order closest to primates. (I think
the jury's still out on that.) Given a few dozen million years and
a succession of suitable evolutionary niches, it is theoretically
possible for human-derived primates to shrink back to lemur-size,
develop into something akin to flying lemurs and from there to
bat-like creatures. Of course they will also have the size and
general level of intelligence of bats. Men with wings they won't
be. Thinking of a suitable environment to exert the necessary
evolutionary pressue to take Homo sapiens down that road is left
as an exercise to the reader.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:46 pm |
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"Lisa Morgendunst" <lisamorgendunst@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2780a446.0401022135.1f2582b@posting.google.com...
Quote: Ever see sci-fi movies where alien critters look like giant insects?
Now, why can't insects be as big as mammals?
Or were they once but big ones all died out. If so, why?
Or is there something in the dna of insects that limits their size?
Is it because the insect brain is too small to control a larger body?
Can insects evolved into superinsects as smart as people or are they
condemned to remain stupid?
Another question. Is it at least theoretically possible for humans to
evolve into flying creatures?
If piglike creatures can turn into whales, is it outlandish to at
least theorize man with wings? Or, is there something in the human dna
that denies that kind of ability ever being possible?
If humans have wings then what happens after they die? You are going to get
angel wings and you can't have wings on wings. Well, a biplane. The better
question is why can't humans be biplanes? I think also you have to think
about God's plan for our happiness as his/her children, and here I am
talking about sanitation. You think winged people flying over the cities and
over cars eating fast food and putting on makeup is going to be right with
God? Look at the rate of descent for airplanes. A controlled descent and
landing takes quite awhile. Too long to guarantee that some dehumanized
financial services type isn't going to unzip his pants and release a big one
right on a playground or something. Is it Theortically possible for humans
to evolve into flying creatures? Not if you're are a person of faith! |
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| Duke of URL |
| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:05 pm |
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In news:030120041334294702%c6c3w10302@sneakemail.com,
Philo D <c6c3w10302@sneakemail.com> radiated into the WorldWideWait:
Quote: In article <2780a446.0401022135.1f2582b@posting.google.com>, Lisa
Morgendunst <lisamorgendunst@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ever see sci-fi movies where alien critters look like giant
insects?
Now, why can't insects be as big as mammals?
Or were they once but big ones all died out. If so, why?
Or is there something in the dna of insects that limits their size?
DNA? no. It's physics. Your college biology class should have
explained this to you. The square-cube law. Remember?
Hmm, then how do you explain the giant insects back in dinosaur-days?
I saw at a museum an actual-size model of a dragonfly-like one. Let me
tell you, if I saw something like that flying around, you would play
hell getting me to come out of my root cellar! |
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