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Daniel...
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:06 pm
 
On Jul 15, 9:20 pm, YumYumPandaburger <theoriginald... at (no spam) gmail.com>
wrote:
Quote:
On 15 jul, 10:20, Greendistantstar <Greendistants... at (no spam) iinet.net.au
wrote:





YumYumPandaburger wrote:
On 9 jul, 17:15, "Mossingen" <jhanki... at (no spam) cox.net> wrote:
"YumYumPandaburger" <theoriginald... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message

news:07002257-bc05-43c5-85d8-0c419de4c12e at (no spam) z10g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

if not for the cage he would have gotten out before werdum got tlock
his legs imo
I kind of thought that, too, when I saw it live, but upon further review it
looks like Fedor was trying to punch and just ignoring the danger of the sub
as it eveloped him.  Just very poor form by Fedor; a lack of awareness that
seemed amateurish by his standards.  I think we just have to give it up to
Werdum.

Looked at the vid again, imo Fedor tries to roll out before Werdum can
lock his legs, but he rolls against the cage and ends up in the locked
triangle.

He might not have escaped by rolling out anyway (looks more likely he
could have ended up under werdum's side of full mount), but he did try
to get out

Too late....

GDS

yeah I bet he forgot he was not just fighting a bjj bb, but a judo
bb ! these cats invented the triangle choke- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As a judo bb and a japanese jj bb i'd have to venture that judo did
not invent the triangle choke...it'd been around for hundreds of years
in the various japanese jj lineages b4 judo took it on board. and
who's to say it didn't exist in fighting methods of other
civilisations as well?

Daniel
 
Appledog...
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:27 pm
 
On Aug 12, 12:11 pm, Greendistantstar <Greendistants... at (no spam) iinet.net.au>
wrote:
Quote:
Daniel wrote:
On Jul 15, 9:20 pm, YumYumPandaburger <theoriginald... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
On 15 jul, 10:20, Greendistantstar <Greendistants... at (no spam) iinet.net.au
wrote:

YumYumPandaburger wrote:
On 9 jul, 17:15, "Mossingen" <jhanki... at (no spam) cox.net> wrote:
"YumYumPandaburger" <theoriginald... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:07002257-bc05-43c5-85d8-0c419de4c12e at (no spam) z10g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
if not for the cage he would have gotten out before werdum got tlock
his legs imo
I kind of thought that, too, when I saw it live, but upon further review it
looks like Fedor was trying to punch and just ignoring the danger of the sub
as it eveloped him.  Just very poor form by Fedor; a lack of awareness that
seemed amateurish by his standards.  I think we just have to give it up to
Werdum.
Looked at the vid again, imo Fedor tries to roll out before Werdum can
lock his legs, but he rolls against the cage and ends up in the locked
triangle.
He might not have escaped by rolling out anyway (looks more likely he
could have ended up under werdum's side of full mount), but he did try
to get out
Too late....
GDS
yeah I bet he forgot he was not just fighting a bjj bb, but a judo
bb ! these cats invented the triangle choke- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As a judo bb and  a japanese jj bb i'd have to venture that judo did
not invent the triangle choke...it'd been around for hundreds of years
in the various japanese jj lineages b4 judo took it on board.

Yes, I'd agree with that. Some histories suggest the root art came from India.

Malla-yuddha, is the root art to which you refer, and it was practiced
since around 400 BC (it was first mentioned in the Mahabharata around
400 BC). Yet most martial arts historians would have that Malla-yuddha
is not really a "root art" as you suggest because it developed in
relative isolation from the East Asian martial arts. There are two
important facts to consider here. One, Jiao Li was developed as a
standardized military martial art by the Zhou dynasty almost 600 years
earlier than Malla-yuddha (The Zhou maintained control of China for
800 years, one of the longest dynasties). Secondly, Judo and other
arts Secondly, the Indian arts were not well-developed arts during
this time; even by the 16th century their art remained so primative
that when the Mongols invaded their Mongolian wrestling arts were
embraced by the locals, thereby creating modern Pehlwani.

This places the development of East Asian martial arts out of the
reach of Indians. Consider for example that by the 14th century
Chinese arts were already fully developed in forms similar to what we
know today, and had reached Japan where they began taking on their
current forms of Karate, Judo, and so forth. By this time the Mongols
hadn't even invaded India yet and given them all the East Asian's
advanced techniques. Therefore to say the Indian art was the root art
ignores two historical facts; that Malla-yuddha is relatively young,
and that Malla-yuddha was modified by East Asian arts during the
Mongol Invasion. And Mongolian wrestling, although claimed by
adherents to be over 7,000 years old, was sinified in during the Yuan
Dynasty in 1300 B.C. (a full 300 years before they invaded India).

It's a nice theory though, it is the kind of rumor that gets under
your skin. Much like how vegans avoid black olives because of the
rumor that the juice they're packed in contains octopus ink.

In the end, I'd be much more inclined to drop all the "it came from"
stuff and say it was developed independently. Stuff like the triangle
choke really isn't rocket science. Quite clearly this was all known
and done to death thousands of years ago. Saying it came from
somewhere is missing the point IMO.

-
 
Greendistantstar...
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:11 pm
 
Daniel wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 15, 9:20 pm, YumYumPandaburger <theoriginald... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
On 15 jul, 10:20, Greendistantstar <Greendistants... at (no spam) iinet.net.au
wrote:





YumYumPandaburger wrote:
On 9 jul, 17:15, "Mossingen" <jhanki... at (no spam) cox.net> wrote:
"YumYumPandaburger" <theoriginald... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:07002257-bc05-43c5-85d8-0c419de4c12e at (no spam) z10g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
if not for the cage he would have gotten out before werdum got tlock
his legs imo
I kind of thought that, too, when I saw it live, but upon further review it
looks like Fedor was trying to punch and just ignoring the danger of the sub
as it eveloped him. Just very poor form by Fedor; a lack of awareness that
seemed amateurish by his standards. I think we just have to give it up to
Werdum.
Looked at the vid again, imo Fedor tries to roll out before Werdum can
lock his legs, but he rolls against the cage and ends up in the locked
triangle.
He might not have escaped by rolling out anyway (looks more likely he
could have ended up under werdum's side of full mount), but he did try
to get out
Too late....
GDS
yeah I bet he forgot he was not just fighting a bjj bb, but a judo
bb ! these cats invented the triangle choke- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As a judo bb and a japanese jj bb i'd have to venture that judo did
not invent the triangle choke...it'd been around for hundreds of years
in the various japanese jj lineages b4 judo took it on board.

Yes, I'd agree with that. Some histories suggest the root art came from India.

Next time he's in town, try and hook up with John Will. He's a walking, talking encyclopedia of all
this. He's trained Vajramushti with the Jyesthimallas in Gujarat, was the first non-Indo guy to win
a world Silat title, and is one of the 'Dirty Dozen'; the first twelve non-Brazilians world-wide to
get a BJJ bb. John's now a 4/5th degree Rigan Machado bb.

Quote:
and
who's to say it didn't exist in fighting methods of other
civilisations as well?

It does, it did.

GDS

"Let's roll!"
 
Greendistantstar...
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:41 pm
 
Appledog wrote:

Quote:
Stuff like the triangle
choke really isn't rocket science.

It just feels like that if you're unfamiliar with it.

Quote:
Quite clearly this was all known
and done to death thousands of years ago.

Really? How about we just recognise its earliest recorded example and leave it at that?

It's mere speculation to suggest what you are. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, we simply don't know.

It's a bit like 'extraterrestrials'. We can speculate as to whether they exist or not and the
probabilities eg the Drake Equation/Anthropic Principle until we're blue in the face.

But unless and until definitive, incontrovertible evidence arises, we can make no positive affirmation.

Quote:
Saying it came from
somewhere is missing the point IMO.

It certainly didn't come from nowhere.

GDS

"Let's roll!"
 
Dan Winsor...
Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:34 am
 
On Aug 19, 2:12 am, GreenDistantStar <greendistants... at (no spam) gmail.com>
wrote:

With you until right here:

Quote:
But seeing as we have no definitive proof that Judo came
from Japanese JJ,

We do have proof of that, unless you misspoke/typed. Right from
Kano's own words:

http://www.judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/judo-history/125-jujutsu-becomes-judo

Aside from that statement, I'd agree with the rest of your assessment.

--
Dan Winsor

Soy un poco loco en el coco.
 
Appledog...
Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:46 am
 
On Aug 19, 2:12 pm, GreenDistantStar <greendistants... at (no spam) gmail.com>
wrote:
Quote:

I just said I wasn't stating that.

But you did, and you just quoted yourself in proof thereof!

Stop being obtuse.

Well take the opportunity to say, no, it wasn't. There, that's simple
enough, isn't it?

"I just said I wasn't stating that."

Quote:
Why? Are you incapable of reading your own posts??????

lol

I said, I concede.

Quote:
My logic is iron-clad and my facts indisputable.

Facts? You keep claiming there's no evidence.

-
 
Dan Winsor...
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:19 am
 
On Aug 24, 9:52 am, Ben Holmes <ad... at (no spam) burningknife.com> wrote:
Quote:
In article <8b282fd4-044c-41bb-9d28-93a5916e2... at (no spam) x21g2000yqa.googlegroups..com>,
Dan Winsor says...







On Aug 19, 2:12=A0am, GreenDistantStar <greendistants... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:

With you until right here:

But seeing as we have no definitive proof that Judo came
from Japanese JJ,

We do have proof of that, unless you misspoke/typed.  Right from
Kano's own words:

http://www.judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/judo-history/125-jujuts...
mes-judo

Aside from that statement, I'd agree with the rest of your assessment.

Soy un poco loco en el coco.

The historical fact that Judo developed from several styles of Japanese Jujutsu
is well attested by many people... even those who are still living. Keiko
Fukuda's grandfather taught Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Jujitsu to Jigoro Kano. You can
travel to San Francisco and talk to Keiko Fukuda if you wish...

Frisco's a fun city - you buying?

--
Dan Winsor

Soy un poco loco en el coco.
 
Daniel...
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:05 am
 
On Aug 25, 12:19 am, Dan Winsor <dan.win... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 24, 9:52 am, Ben Holmes <ad... at (no spam) burningknife.com> wrote:





In article <8b282fd4-044c-41bb-9d28-93a5916e2... at (no spam) x21g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
Dan Winsor says...

On Aug 19, 2:12=A0am, GreenDistantStar <greendistants... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:

With you until right here:

But seeing as we have no definitive proof that Judo came
from Japanese JJ,

We do have proof of that, unless you misspoke/typed.  Right from
Kano's own words:

http://www.judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/judo-history/125-jujuts....
mes-judo

Aside from that statement, I'd agree with the rest of your assessment.

Soy un poco loco en el coco.

The historical fact that Judo developed from several styles of Japanese Jujutsu
is well attested by many people... even those who are still living. Keiko
Fukuda's grandfather taught Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Jujitsu to Jigoro Kano. You can
travel to San Francisco and talk to Keiko Fukuda if you wish...

Frisco's a fun city - you buying?

--
Dan Winsor

Soy un poco loco en el coco.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry i made that earlier comment about how sangaku was (in all
probability) invented a long time b4 Kano. the thread turned into a
monster. my apologies...
 
Ben Holmes...
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:52 am
 
In article <8b282fd4-044c-41bb-9d28-93a5916e2bf3 at (no spam) x21g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
Dan Winsor says...
Quote:

On Aug 19, 2:12=A0am, GreenDistantStar <greendistants... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:

With you until right here:

But seeing as we have no definitive proof that Judo came
from Japanese JJ,

We do have proof of that, unless you misspoke/typed. Right from
Kano's own words:

http://www.judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/judo-history/125-jujutsu-beco=
mes-judo

Aside from that statement, I'd agree with the rest of your assessment.

Soy un poco loco en el coco.

The historical fact that Judo developed from several styles of Japanese Jujutsu
is well attested by many people... even those who are still living. Keiko
Fukuda's grandfather taught Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Jujitsu to Jigoro Kano. You can
travel to San Francisco and talk to Keiko Fukuda if you wish...


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Holmes
Learn to Make Money with a Website - http://www.burningknife.com
 
Dan Winsor...
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:58 am
 
On Aug 24, 1:05 pm, Daniel <nidan.da... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 25, 12:19 am, Dan Winsor <dan.win... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry i made that earlier comment about how sangaku was (in all
probability) invented a long time b4 Kano. the thread turned into a
monster. my apologies...

Yeah, it's *his* fault! Get him!

--
Dan Winsor

Soy un poco loco en el coco.
 
Ben Holmes...
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:36 pm
 
In article <5381edf7-70c3-42d3-9e64-ca1457be8314 at (no spam) d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
Dan Winsor says...
Quote:

On Aug 24, 9:52=A0am, Ben Holmes <ad... at (no spam) burningknife.com> wrote:
In article <8b282fd4-044c-41bb-9d28-93a5916e2... at (no spam) x21g2000yqa.googlegroups=
.com>,
Dan Winsor says...

On Aug 19, 2:12=3DA0am, GreenDistantStar <greendistants... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:

With you until right here:

But seeing as we have no definitive proof that Judo came
from Japanese JJ,

We do have proof of that, unless you misspoke/typed. =A0Right from
Kano's own words:

http://www.judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/judo-history/125-jujuts...
mes-judo

Aside from that statement, I'd agree with the rest of your assessment.

Soy un poco loco en el coco.

The historical fact that Judo developed from several styles of Japanese J=
ujutsu
is well attested by many people... even those who are still living. Keiko
Fukuda's grandfather taught Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Jujitsu to Jigoro Kano. Yo=
u can
travel to San Francisco and talk to Keiko Fukuda if you wish...

Frisco's a fun city - you buying?


Nah... but I'll give you a free night on the mat at the Encino Judo Club!



Quote:
Soy un poco loco en el coco.


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Holmes
Learn to Make Money with a Website - http://www.burningknife.com
 
Fraser Johnston...
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:54 pm
 
"Ben Holmes" <admin at (no spam) burningknife.com> wrote in message
news:i50irn019hl at (no spam) drn.newsguy.com...
Quote:
In article
8b282fd4-044c-41bb-9d28-93a5916e2bf3 at (no spam) x21g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
Dan Winsor says...

On Aug 19, 2:12=A0am, GreenDistantStar <greendistants... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:

With you until right here:

But seeing as we have no definitive proof that Judo came
from Japanese JJ,

We do have proof of that, unless you misspoke/typed. Right from
Kano's own words:

http://www.judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/judo-history/125-jujutsu-beco=
mes-judo

Aside from that statement, I'd agree with the rest of your assessment.

Soy un poco loco en el coco.

The historical fact that Judo developed from several styles of Japanese
Jujutsu
is well attested by many people... even those who are still living. Keiko
Fukuda's grandfather taught Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Jujitsu to Jigoro Kano. You
can
travel to San Francisco and talk to Keiko Fukuda if you wish...

You're going to be tough with a last name like Fukuda.

Fraser
 
 
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