David E. Cohen wrote:
Genetic studies have shown that the Khazar component in the ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews is very
minor. Bringing it back on topic, it would have been interesting, heraldically speaking, if the
Khaganate of Khazaria had survived a few more centuries, since heraldry there would have
developed
in a Jewish milieu, rather than a Christian one.


I beg to differ, Sir. I came to believe that Khazar component, as you name it, has made Ashkenazim
a chosen people, a special lot
endowed with certain superior qualities in mental faculties. I base myself not on some jewish book
from the bronze era but on physiology
of human brain. But that is the moot point, we are here to discuss the armorials.

It so happens that I have studied at some lenght jewish armorials os spanich origin. Have become
fascinated by another puzzle, you see:
Who was the lucky owner of the set of 12 silver plates, graced with this CoA:
http://tiny.cc/NamXQ
This armorial is noted for one rare element, the Duck, symbol of industriousness and perseverance,
I believe. Besides, it is much more complicated that my own, Ogonczyk(Powala) given for reference
here: http://tiny.cc/NamXQ

So I have looked up the people who might pride themselves more in the above mentioned virtues
then blood and gore, as my lot visibly did, and have come across
those sephardic in origin jewish spanish armorials. No ducks here. Is it a forbidden food for
Jews(like pork, hare, blood etc)?

I came to believe eventually that it was a property of a Brasilian Emperor POedro II, or one of
his ilk, before it fell into my rapacious lap.
Any ideas?

fatso

....That's why Pedro the II of Brazil comes under scrutiny as a suspect....

BTW. Are you sure the charges are ducks? They could just as easily be
martlets

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_fam_fr_Beauharnais.svg

Richard L

Being of Ashkenazi descent, I will refrain from commenting on either being of a chosen people, or
their having superior mental abilities. But I wasn't referring to any ancient text, but rather
multiple recent genetic studies, as I had previously stated.

In answer to one of your other questions, ducks, if slaughtered properly, are just as kosher as
chickens.



David, look up the work of professor Skorecki of Tel-Aviv University.

BTW. Are you sure the charges are ducks? They could just as easily be
martlets

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_fam_fr_Beauharnais.svg

Richard L

Josephine de Boharnais ? You mean that washer woman of Paris, young and

David E. Cohen wrote:
Being of Ashkenazi descent, I will refrain from commenting on either being of a chosen people, or
their having superior mental abilities. But I wasn't referring to any ancient text, but rather
multiple recent genetic studies, as I had previously stated.

In answer to one of your other questions, ducks, if slaughtered properly, are just as kosher as
chickens.



David, look up the work of professor Skorecki of Tel-Aviv University.

As to the duck, thanks for the info. My searches through spanish, portugese,
belgian & french pages have led me nowhere. The plates themselves are
portugese antique silver. That's why Pedro the II of Brazil comes under scrutiny as a suspect,
especially as he was forced into exile end of the XIXth c. for daring to free the slaves.
He has been to England, lived in the straightened circumstances, might have sent his flunkey
to pawn my plates. Pedro's loss is my gain- such are the ways of the world.

fatso

Recent studies all show Jews, all over the world, are more closely related to each other than to
non-Jews, though obviously there has been population mixing,willing and otherwise. Ethiopian Jews
look different than Bukharan Jews, who look different than Ashkenazim. It is no accident that the
traditional Jewish determination of whether someone is a Jew *by birth* is whether their mother is
Jewish, the father's religion and/or ethnicity being irrelevant. I never said there was no
Khazarian ancestry in present day Jewish populations, Ashkenazic or otherwise. I would be shocked
if that were true. I just said it was minor, and the genetics, as well as the historical record,
support this.

David E. Cohen wrote:
Recent studies all show Jews, all over the world, are more closely related to each other than to
non-Jews, though obviously there has been population mixing,willing and otherwise. Ethiopian
Jews
look different than Bukharan Jews, who look different than Ashkenazim. It is no accident that
the
traditional Jewish determination of whether someone is a Jew *by birth* is whether their mother
is
Jewish, the father's religion and/or ethnicity being irrelevant. I never said there was no
Khazarian ancestry in present day Jewish populations, Ashkenazic or otherwise. I would be
shocked
if that were true. I just said it was minor, and the genetics, as well as the historical record,
support this.



David, if I understand prof.Skorecki's research well, your lot, i.e. Cohanim, descend from one,
max. two genetic fore-fathers.
Quite understandable as the clan Cohen would be employed in the Temple to guard fire and stay
close to the offerings, a well paying
sinecure, worth holding on to.
Ashkenazim do descend from max. four putative mothers, not necessarily born in the same time. It
is those mothers who endowed
the Ashkenazi Jews with special qualities of mind and did burden them with lethal genes of
uniquely jewish diseases at the same time.
There are some, like Kestler, who believe them to be of Khazarian stock. Fake Jews who accepted
jewish religious rites in early
first Millenium after Christ but stem not from Palestine but from the area of inter-sea, roughly
the present South Osetia.

It is those Khazars, admixed into the Ashkenazim race, who have endowed it with superior quality
of mind. Nothing fake here, nothing racist.
Just a question of metabolism, extra feeding charge applied to the sphygmomyelins of the brain.
Sorry- you, Cohanim, don't have it.
I- on the other hand- could. Genetically, I am a Vareg, i.e. a Viking who went eastwards and a
historical citizen of the Grand Duchy
of Lithuania. But who is that lady, I will show below? The dark haired polish noblewoman,
ferocious catholic and a virtuoso player
of grand piano, photographed > 100 yrs ago in Kharkov, capital of Ukraine at the time? Well it is
that old bitch, my very own grandmother,
the woman who would prick the eyes out of Comrade Stalin with knitting needle in a newspaper. I
believe her to be of Khazararian stock.

So, coming back to heraldry issues, the discovery that my silver canteen turns out to be stamped
with the noble Arms of Rothschild, de Worms
or Pirbright- or some combination of them- does give me great pleasure. For they must have been
Khazars, to have achieved so much.
regards

fatso

http://tiny.cc/rtjdg

Well, I don't think you do understand the research. You are certainly misrepresenting the results
of various genetic studies.

Several studies show that one particular mutation which I believe you are talking about and which
has been the subject of so much research, the Cohen Modal Haplotype, is not universal among either
Ashkenazi or Sephardi Kohanim, or outlying Kohanim or others claiming descent from ancient
Israelites (it varies by subgroup, but let's call it present in half), and is less common in other
Jews though more prevalent than in the world at large. So complete descent of Kohanim, who are a
small minority of all Jews, from one or two forefathers doesn't make sense from the point of view of
these studies. The marker is also present, in significant amounts, in a few groups which have
absolutely no historical connection to the ancient Israelites. What all this could possibly have to
do with the Khazar component of Ashkenazi Jewry escapes me.

The "four mothers study" suggests that four women, who may well have lived many centuries apart, and
could have lived in four different places (including the Middle East or other places far from
Khazaria), may have been the ancestors of somewhat less than half of modern Ashkenazi Jews. There
is no indication of one or more of these women having been Khazarian or not. Ashkenazi Jews, like
any somewhat isolated endogamous group, tend to have certain inherited diseases which are more
prevalent within the group. The presence of such diseases neither supports nor refutes your
position. Koestler's work, which I have read, has been pretty thoroughly discredited by more recent
and rigorous scholarship.

Calling those Khazars who converted (a significant number, but likely a minority--the Khaganate of
Khazaria was remarkably, almost singularly tolerant for its time in matters of religion) to Judaism
'fake Jews' is both disrespectful to them, and silly. They are converts, no more and no less, just
like converts to any other religion. By the way, most Cohens are Kohanim, but not all are, so "your
lot" and "you Cohanim" presumes. In addition, nothing prevented Kohanim from marrying the
descendants of those four mothers mentioned earlier, so if they were Khazarian women, many people
claiming to be Kohanim would certainly be among their descendants. As to your personal descent from
Khazars who intermarried with Varangians, good luck trying to prove it either way, but if it pleases
you to think so, it's not hurting anyone.

David E. Cohen wrote:
Well, I don't think you do understand the research. You are certainly misrepresenting the
results
of various genetic studies.

Several studies show that one particular mutation which I believe you are talking about and which
has been the subject of so much research, the Cohen Modal Haplotype, is not universal among
either
Ashkenazi or Sephardi Kohanim, or outlying Kohanim or others claiming descent from ancient
Israelites (it varies by subgroup, but let's call it present in half), and is less common in
other
Jews though more prevalent than in the world at large. So complete descent of Kohanim, who are a
small minority of all Jews, from one or two forefathers doesn't make sense from the point of view
of
these studies. The marker is also present, in significant amounts, in a few groups which have
absolutely no historical connection to the ancient Israelites. What all this could possibly have
to
do with the Khazar component of Ashkenazi Jewry escapes me.

The "four mothers study" suggests that four women, who may well have lived many centuries apart,
and
could have lived in four different places (including the Middle East or other places far from
Khazaria), may have been the ancestors of somewhat less than half of modern Ashkenazi Jews.
There
is no indication of one or more of these women having been Khazarian or not. Ashkenazi Jews,
like
any somewhat isolated endogamous group, tend to have certain inherited diseases which are more
prevalent within the group. The presence of such diseases neither supports nor refutes your
position. Koestler's work, which I have read, has been pretty thoroughly discredited by more
recent
and rigorous scholarship.

Calling those Khazars who converted (a significant number, but likely a minority--the Khaganate
of
Khazaria was remarkably, almost singularly tolerant for its time in matters of religion) to
Judaism
'fake Jews' is both disrespectful to them, and silly. They are converts, no more and no less,
just
like converts to any other religion. By the way, most Cohens are Kohanim, but not all are, so
"your
lot" and "you Cohanim" presumes. In addition, nothing prevented Kohanim from marrying the
descendants of those four mothers mentioned earlier, so if they were Khazarian women, many people
claiming to be Kohanim would certainly be among their descendants. As to your personal descent
from
Khazars who intermarried with Varangians, good luck trying to prove it either way, but if it
pleases
you to think so, it's not hurting anyone.




Thank you for your thoughts but we fish in murky waters. Still, we know so much more then only 5
yrs ago.
You will not deny, I hope, that both Stalin and Hitler were, in a way, men of genius? Both
dilletantes, leading the
huge armies, both evil and cunning. It transpires that Stalin's genotype as tested by his
grandson is of a south ossetian
or khazarian type.
Hitler's we do not know unless the Kremlin does release the remnats of his skull for testing. Pity
his Mum,
Miss Hicklegruber, did not leave the testimony as to who was her happy impregnator. As a Jew you
should know the ugly
rumours, around since before the II W.W.. Suffice to say that she did her servitude in the house
of austrian Rothschilds.
Somebody did pay young Adolf's alimonies and it was not that ugly old and pompous Mr Hitler, late
husband of his Mum.
You get my drift? Look at that conjoint coat of arms carefully, again. If it is what I think it is
then I think I am a rich man.

Little clue: when the polish country landowner would "spoil" the kitchen girl and it was obvious
to all and sundry, he would
send her back to her hovel, with cow on a string in tow. Why not to give the girl in Salzburg or
Lintz or wherever, a set of
spoons and forks in solid silver, hanging about the house, sort of silver farewell handshake or a
token of a bugger off?
Being a son of such a woman I would be cross for the rest of my life.

fatso

Recent studies all show Jews, all over the world, are more closely related to each other than to
non-Jews, though obviously there has been population mixing,willing and otherwise.  Ethiopian Jews
look different than Bukharan Jews, who look different than Ashkenazim.  It is no accident that the
traditional Jewish determination of whether someone is a Jew *by birth* is whether their mother is
Jewish, the father's religion and/or ethnicity being irrelevant.  I never said there was no
Khazarian ancestry in present day Jewish populations, Ashkenazic or otherwise.  I would be shocked
if that were true.  I just said it was minor, and the genetics, as well as the historical record,
support this.



"fatso" <fatso60... at (no spam) ntlworld.com> wrote in messagenews:zczIm.60327$y%.49115 at (no spam) newsfe29.ams2...
David E. Cohen wrote:
Being of Ashkenazi descent, I will refrain from commenting on either being of a chosen people, or
their having superior mental abilities.  But I wasn't referring to any ancient text, but rather
multiple recent genetic studies, as I had previously stated.

In answer to one of your other questions, ducks, if slaughtered properly, are just as kosher as
chickens.

David, look up the work of professor Skorecki of Tel-Aviv University.

As to the duck, thanks for the info. My searches through spanish, portugese,
belgian & french pages have  led me nowhere. The plates themselves are
portugese antique silver. That's why Pedro the II of Brazil comes under scrutiny as a suspect,
especially as he was forced into exile end of the XIXth c. for daring to free the slaves.
He has been to England, lived in the straightened circumstances, might have sent his flunkey
to pawn my plates. Pedro's loss is my gain- such are  the ways of the world.

fatso- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As for Hitler, there are several thoughts, all mashed together. I don't have a clear idea of what
you are trying to say, and I am not interested enough to put in the effort to decipher it.