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| foggytown... |
 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:47 am |
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Greetings to the group!
I asked this question a few years ago but nobody seemed to be able to
answer it. Perhaps there are new people now in the group who may have
some thoughts..
The flag commonly referred to as the Union Jack
http://uwlib5.uwyo.edu/blogs/dustyshelves/files/2008/02/union-jack2.jpg
has one quirk I don't understand. Why is the thin red St Andrew's
cross (within the wide white St Andrew's cross) inserted and offset so
that each arm is off-center relative to the white arms? Is there some
symbolism involved? Is the asymmetry made necessary by the
intersection of the white St Andrew's and the red St George's?
Any insight would be appreciated. |
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| davidappleton... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:04 am |
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On Nov 5, 2:47 pm, foggytown <sawduster.m... at (no spam) googlemail.com> wrote:
Quote: Greetings to the group!
I asked this question a few years ago but nobody seemed to be able to
answer it. Perhaps there are new people now in the group who may have
some thoughts..
The flag commonly referred to as the Union Jack
http://uwlib5.uwyo.edu/blogs/dustyshelves/files/2008/02/union-jack2.jpg
has one quirk I don't understand. Why is the thin red St Andrew's
cross (within the wide white St Andrew's cross) inserted and offset so
that each arm is off-center relative to the white arms? Is there some
symbolism involved? Is the asymmetry made necessary by the
intersection of the white St Andrew's and the red St George's?
Any insight would be appreciated.
The "thin red St. Andrew's cross" is not a St. Andrew's cross, it is a
St. Patrick's cross, symbolic of Ireland. The original Union Jack
took the blue and white Scottish cross of St. Andrew, and overlaid the
red cross of St. George (which then was "fimbriated" with white so it
would show up better. Later, when Ireland was added to the flag (a
red saltire on a white field, so when they added the it, they also had
to fimbriate it, as well), for some reason they split it with the
cross of St. Andrew, giving the St. Andrew cross "priority" by having
it in the upper half of the combined X) on one side, and the St.
Patrick's cross priority the same way on the other side.
So the asymmetry you ask about was caused by a combination of a white
saltire (X shape) and a red saltire (X shape, fimbriated with white),
being combined into a single X shape and trying not to make it appear
visually that one of the two kingdoms is more important than the
other.
Does this help?
David
David B. Appleton
Appleton Studios
www.appletonstudios.com
Heraldry: Musings on an esoteric topic
http://blog.appletonstudios.com |
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| Greg... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:11 pm |
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On 5 Nov, 12:47, foggytown <sawduster.m... at (no spam) googlemail.com> wrote:
Quote: Greetings to the group!
I asked this question a few years ago but nobody seemed to be able to
answer it. Perhaps there are new people now in the group who may have
some thoughts..
The flag commonly referred to as the Union Jack
http://uwlib5.uwyo.edu/blogs/dustyshelves/files/2008/02/union-jack2.jpg
has one quirk I don't understand. Why is the thin red St Andrew's
cross (within the wide white St Andrew's cross) inserted and offset so
that each arm is off-center relative to the white arms? Is there some
symbolism involved? Is the asymmetry made necessary by the
intersection of the white St Andrew's and the red St George's?
Any insight would be appreciated.
In 1803, in order for Ireland to be shown as a dominion, the Eglish
literally invented St. Patrick's Cross and then of courser as David
says, it was offest for highlighting purposes and so that it would not
interfere with St. Ander's Cross. |
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| Don Aitken... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:36 pm |
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On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:47:49 -0800 (PST), foggytown
<sawduster.mike at (no spam) googlemail.com> wrote:
Quote: Greetings to the group!
I asked this question a few years ago but nobody seemed to be able to
answer it. Perhaps there are new people now in the group who may have
some thoughts..
The flag commonly referred to as the Union Jack
http://uwlib5.uwyo.edu/blogs/dustyshelves/files/2008/02/union-jack2.jpg
has one quirk I don't understand. Why is the thin red St Andrew's
cross (within the wide white St Andrew's cross) inserted and offset so
that each arm is off-center relative to the white arms? Is there some
symbolism involved? Is the asymmetry made necessary by the
intersection of the white St Andrew's and the red St George's?
Any insight would be appreciated.
The way it is designed is that each arm of the saltire is half red and
half white (the two halves changing place at the centre). *Then* a
further narrow white stripe is added outide the red, to avoid an
infringement of the heraldic tincture rule. The idea is that the
design gets as close as possible to giving equal prominence to the
Scottish and Irish emblems (the white on blue St. Andrews's cross and
the red on white St Patrick's cross).
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" |
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| foggytown... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:47 am |
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Thank you all for your replies. I have a much better idea now about
the design and its appearance. |
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| Greg... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:49 am |
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On 6 Nov, 11:00, constant... at (no spam) xsublime.demon.co.uk (Peter Constantine)
wrote:
Quote: Greg wrote:
In 1803, in order for Ireland to be shown as a dominion, the Eglish
literally invented St. Patrick's Cross
If anything, the red saltire was 'invented' in 1783 for use by the Most
Illustrious Order of Saint Patrick - some 17 years prior to the Act Of
Union (1800) and the subsequent change to the Union Flag (1801).
A red saltire was also prominent in the arms of Gerald Fitzgerald the
first(?) Lord Deputy of Ireland back in the 15th century.
x
I've never heard that before . . . I knew that it was invented, and
all my books on the new Union Jack at 1803. This - order, was for
whom and by whom? |
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| Peter Constantine... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:00 pm |
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Guest
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Greg wrote:
Quote: In 1803, in order for Ireland to be shown as a dominion, the Eglish
literally invented St. Patrick's Cross
If anything, the red saltire was 'invented' in 1783 for use by the Most
Illustrious Order of Saint Patrick - some 17 years prior to the Act Of
Union (1800) and the subsequent change to the Union Flag (1801).
A red saltire was also prominent in the arms of Gerald Fitzgerald the
first(?) Lord Deputy of Ireland back in the 15th century.
x |
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