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just a beginer...

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maxx4671...
Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:10 pm
Guest
In my last post Harry C. gave me a hard time about being a beginer.
Its true i am a beginer and full of a thousend questions. Its alot
diffrent than at the PGI convention where people would bend over
backwards to help a newbie. Im not going to be discouraged and bear
with me if i have a lot of questions but safety is always my top
priority.
so dont be scared Harry C
heres an example of a beginer problem that i had, first off i know
that there are alot of things not to put in a mill but no one ever
told me not to put any dextrin in a mill
so to mix in the dextrin better for prime mix i thought that i would
mill it in dry
aparently theres was enough mosture in my pot.nitrate to harden it and
im woundering if i discoverd a new way to granulate BP
i ended up with some huge chunks surounding my media
broke them off and im thinking about smashing it up in a five gallon
bucket with a four by four
and screen it like normal redgum alcohol bp
any comments?
i hate to waste the material.
Maxx 467
Proud to be a new PGI member
next week more dumb questions.
 
rbirch...
Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:13 pm
Guest
What formula did you put in the mill, 75/15/10/5 ?

Describe your mill and your media.

Where did you get your chemicals?

Describe your chemicals.

There may be some simple explanation, but without more information,
its anyone's guess.

Russ
 
boom.armstrong...
Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:29 pm
Guest
There is no such thing as a dumb question. Well most of the time at
least.

It is not uncommon for BP to clump while milling. It is generally a
factor of heat and moisture. Not your dextrin.
Make sure your chemicals are dry, if you want to avoid clumping. You
will find that when it is cool outside you will not have this
problem.

Break up the big clumps and put them back in your mill. Run it for an
hour, then stop your mill and check your product.
You can also take a rubber mallet and smack the jar a few times to
loosen things up.




On Nov 1, 9:10 pm, maxx4671 <maxx... at (no spam) excite.com> wrote:
Quote:
In my last post Harry C. gave me a hard time about being a beginer.
Its true i am a beginer and full of a thousend questions. Its alot
diffrent than at the PGI convention where people would bend over
backwards to help a newbie. Im not going to be discouraged and bear
with me if i have a lot of questions but safety is always my top
priority.
so dont be scared Harry C
heres an example of a beginer problem that i had, first off i know
that there are alot of things not to put in a mill but no one ever
told me not to put any dextrin in a mill
so to mix in the dextrin better for prime mix i thought that i would
mill it in dry
aparently theres was enough mosture in my pot.nitrate to harden it and
im woundering if i discoverd a new way to granulate BP
i ended up with some huge chunks surounding my media
broke them off and im thinking about smashing it up in a five gallon
bucket with a four by four
and screen it like normal redgum alcohol bp
any comments?
i hate to waste the material.
Maxx 467
Proud to be a new PGI member
next week more dumb questions.
 
maxx4671...
Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:29 pm
Guest
Quote:
What formula did you put in the mill, 75/15/10/5 ?
yep 75/15/10/5

all the chemicals are fine
except the pot nit was milled down Fertilizer
 
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh...
Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:37 am
Guest
maxx4671 <maxx467 at (no spam) excite.com> fired this volley in news:3b953dc8-46c7-411a-
afe2-e7abdc2af9b5 at (no spam) j4g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:

Quote:
Its alot
diffrent than at the PGI convention where people would bend over
backwards to help a newbie.

You'll get help here, too. We're pretty hard on "baby boomers" (not the
generation) who come in here wanting to make BoMz, but we love to help out
(and protect from injury) the rank beginner wishing to learn the craft.

LLoyd
 
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh...
Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:41 am
Guest
maxx4671 <maxx467 at (no spam) excite.com> fired this volley in news:3b953dc8-46c7-
411a-afe2-e7abdc2af9b5 at (no spam) j4g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:

Quote:
i ended up with some huge chunks surounding my media
broke them off and im thinking about smashing it up in a five gallon
bucket with a four by four
and screen it like normal redgum alcohol bp

This is a phenomenon that will occur in a ball mill without dextrin being
present.

It depends upon the moisture and temperature of the charge. VERY dry
materials being milled at a low temperature will tend not to clump.
Moisture and higher temperatures exacerbate the effect.

Some practicioners have "tuned" the effect such that the powder does not
clump until it has milled sufficiently. At that point, they corn the
resulting mass, and have accomplished in one step what takes two if they
press then corn. The downside is that the clumped-and-corned powder is
more fragile than that pressed to 1.7g/cc density.

No binder is necessary for ordinary pressing and corning.

LLoyd
 
Bob...
Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:14 pm
Guest
On Nov 1, 11:29 pm, maxx4671 <maxx... at (no spam) excite.com> wrote:

Quote:
What formula did you put in the mill, 75/15/10/5 ?

yep 75/15/10/5
all the chemicals are fine
except the pot nit was milled down Fertilizer

My little experience with fertilizer KNO3 says that it's likely to
have significant contamination with NaOH, which contributes both
alkalinity & sodium, or with other sodium salt. It cleans up nicely
with one or two rounds of rextalliz'n with sacrifice of a little
material (which you can easily afford, cheap as fertilizer grade is,
although if you were a nut about it you could recycle the supernatant
in a counter-current recovery procedure).

A pyro friend shared with me some fertilizer grade KNO3 he had. It
seemed pretty good for home meal, although it was very alkaline to my
test. Unfortunately he used the KNO3 to make a priming layer for some
stars, and had the entire contents of a shell go blind, even though
the UNprimed stars lit pretty easily. Apparently the sodium content
had made it hygroscopic.

So I could easily see a fertilizer grade KNO3 causing BP to harden in
the mill just from humidity in the air.

As for dextrine, it does lump easily, and may not show up as such
until dampening. It may be advantageous to first mill the dextrine
dry with a small portion of the charcoal to disperse it before milling
with other ingredients, which then may be done with slight dampening
to put down the dust. Or you may dissolve the dextrine in the water
for the final wetting of the compo.

Robert
 
Bob1001...
Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:56 pm
Guest
Max, welcome to the group! Quite frankly, I would be very happy to see
you post ten questions a day. Anything to bring this dieing group back
to life a bit. Please, when it comes to safety, never be hesitant
about asking a question, most all of the people here a very willing to
help someone truly interested in this incredible hobby.

As for your mill question, I'm guessing that the fertilizer grade KNO3
you used may have had some impurities, or been stored in a humid area,
so it may have absorbed a bit of water. You can cure this little
ailment by drying the KNO3 (by itself on a stainless pan) in an oven
at approx 230F for a few hours. Make sure there are no combustibles
anywhere near the oven or in it (ie. burnt cake mix at the bottom of
the oven) and do this outside. Best to just get a cheap wal-mart
toaster oven, break it in, and force dry the KNO3 outside in a safe
area. Once dried keep in in an airtight sealed container (since
impurites in your kno3 may be causing it to become a bit hygroscopic;
again, just a guess). Also as stated earlier, ball mills tend to get a
bit of heat to them when running for extended periods, and any
moisture content tends to cause problems.


~Bob D.
 
Bob...
Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:00 pm
Guest
Quote:
As for your mill question, I'm guessing that the fertilizer grade KNO3
you used may have had some impurities, or been stored in a humid area,
so it may have absorbed a bit of water. You can cure this little
ailment by drying the KNO3 (by itself on a stainless pan) in an oven
at approx 230F for a few hours. Make sure there are no combustibles
anywhere near the oven or in it (ie. burnt cake mix at the bottom of
the oven) and do this outside. Best to just get a cheap wal-mart
toaster oven, break it in, and force dry the KNO3 outside in a safe
area. Once dried keep in in an airtight sealed container (since
impurites in your kno3 may be causing it to become a bit hygroscopic;
again, just a guess). Also as stated earlier, ball mills tend to get a
bit of heat to them when running for extended periods, and any
moisture content tends to cause problems.

~Bob D.

But if the KNO3 is particularly hygroscopic due to impurities, drying
it won't help in the making of BP, because it will attract moisture
later. It must be purified.
 
boom.armstrong...
Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:09 pm
Guest
Unless the fertilizer grade KNO3 you are using is total crap,
purification should not be necessary. I have used several hundred
pounds of GG type and have had no problems. Albeit only when the temp
is up as well as the humidity. Then you must deal with it
accordingly.

Although not very scientific, take some of your fertilizer and make a
saturated solution, if it is clear or has a slight yellowish tint it
should not be contaminated. If you get a brown liquor with a bunch of
insoluble material, then I would look for another source. Although
this would not disqualify Na contamination, if you have are using
Haifa it should be quite pure.




On Nov 2, 10:00 pm, Bob <robg... at (no spam) bestweb.net> wrote:
Quote:
As for your mill question, I'm guessing that the fertilizer grade KNO3
you used may have had some impurities, or been stored in a humid area,
so it may have absorbed a bit of water. You can cure this little
ailment by drying the KNO3 (by itself on a stainless pan) in an oven
at approx 230F for a few hours. Make sure there are no combustibles
anywhere near the oven or in it (ie. burnt cake mix at the bottom of
the oven) and do this outside. Best to just get a cheap wal-mart
toaster oven, break it in, and force dry the KNO3 outside in a safe
area. Once dried keep in in an airtight sealed container (since
impurites in your kno3 may be causing it to become a bit hygroscopic;
again, just a guess). Also as stated earlier, ball mills tend to get a
bit of heat to them when running for extended periods, and any
moisture content tends to cause problems.

~Bob D.

But if the KNO3 is particularly hygroscopic due to impurities, drying
it won't help in the making of BP, because it will attract moisture
later.  It must be purified.
 
maxx4671...
Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:35 pm
Guest
Quote:
Haifa it should be quite pure.

On Nov 2, 10:00 pm, Bob <robg... at (no spam) bestweb.net> wrote:



As for your mill question, I'm guessing that the fertilizer grade KNO3
you used may have had some impurities, or been stored in a humid area,
so it may have absorbed a bit of water. You can cure this little
ailment by drying the KNO3 (by itself on a stainless pan) in an oven
at approx 230F for a few hours. Make sure there are no combustibles
anywhere near the oven or in it (ie. burnt cake mix at the bottom of
the oven) and do this outside. Best to just get a cheap wal-mart
toaster oven, break it in, and force dry the KNO3 outside in a safe
area. Once dried keep in in an airtight sealed container


yes it was Haifa after checking the fertalizer it was quite damp
im sure my problem was from moisture
as far as my product that i had the chuncks were quite hard and needed
to be beaten off with a hammer. now if the moisture activated the
dextren and i was to remill it to a fine dust
im woundering if it will reactivate agian and be useble as a prime mix
Maxx 467
Proud to be a new PGI member
 
jasper...
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:12 am
Guest
Quote:
im woundering if it will reactivate agian and be useble as a prime mix
Maxx 467
Proud to be a new PGI member

There should be no problem reactivating the dextrin.
 
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh...
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:26 am
Guest
"boom.armstrong" <boom.armstrong at (no spam) yahoo.com> fired this volley in
news:b378a6aa-ae10-4d7a-867e-f736fbefc8d1 at (no spam) v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:

Quote:
Although not very scientific, take some of your fertilizer and make a
saturated solution, if it is clear or has a slight yellowish tint it
should not be contaminated. If you get a brown liquor with a bunch of
insoluble material, then I would look for another source. Although
this would not disqualify Na contamination, if you have are using
Haifa it should be quite pure.


To take that thought a little further, if you buy "hydroponic grade
crystals", you're guaranteed by analysis that there will be a minimum of
contaminants. Hydroponic chemicals are purified specifically for the
purpose of delivery through drip irrigation piping systems, where even
small amounts of insolubles will plug up the works.

Champion and Haifa both market "hydroponic crystal" forms of GG KNO3.

I've use hundreds of pounds of it and sold a couple of thousand with nary
a fault due to discoloration of the flame or hygroscopicity.

LLoyd
 
maxx4671...
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:15 pm
Guest
On Nov 3, 9:12 am, jasper <fl_... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
im woundering if it will reactivate agian and be useble as a prime mix
Maxx 467
Proud to be a new PGI member

There should be no problem reactivating the dextrin.

after thinking about it I thought
1 my fertalizer grade pot. nit.absorbed to much moisture
2 when I weighed up a 3 # batch the moisture lowered the amount of dry
pot nit and raised the fuel
3 excatly what I wanted for bp rockets???
a toned down bp mix
I think I might bang out a couple bp rockets (experiments)
with this stuff and see what happens (from a hundred feet away) :)

proud to be a PGI member
maxx
 
hhc314 at (no spam) yahoo.com...
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:24 am
Guest
On Nov 1, 7:10 pm, maxx4671 <maxx... at (no spam) excite.com> wrote:
Quote:
In my last post Harry C. gave me a hard time about being a beginer.
Its true i am a beginer and full of a thousend questions. Its alot
diffrent than at the PGI convention where people would bend over
backwards to help a newbie. Im not going to be discouraged and bear
with me if i have a lot of questions but safety is always my top
priority.
so dont be scared Harry C
heres an example of a beginer problem that i had, first off i know
that there are alot of things not to put in a mill but no one ever
told me not to put any dextrin in a mill
so to mix in the dextrin better for prime mix i thought that i would
mill it in dry
aparently theres was enough mosture in my pot.nitrate to harden it and
im woundering if i discoverd a new way to granulate BP
i ended up with some huge chunks surounding my media
broke them off and im thinking about smashing it up in a five gallon
bucket with a four by four
and screen it like normal redgum alcohol bp
any comments?
i hate to waste the material.
Maxx 467
Proud to be a new PGI member
next week more dumb questions.

Sorry if you were offended by Harry C's comments. I was merely trying
to save you from having your ass blown off by doing something
incredibly stupid.

Just so you know where I am coming from, I've worked with fireworks
for over 55 years, and other than some burned skin, I've never had a
serious injury nor has any member of my display crew. Over the same
number of years, I've lost 5 close friends to fireworks, and all of
these deaths were the result, not of stupidity because these guys knew
better, but because of carelesness and not paying attention or not
following the rules.

Novices are particularly at risk of injury or loss of life, because
they don't yet know or comprehend the rules of safety. (Should I put
that in all upper case letters?)

My hat is off to the PGI, but being composed of amateurs, few of their
members have ever experienced someone being killed by a stupid
mistake. Unfortunately I have, as well as have many of the guys
involved in fireworks over 20-40 years.

I am not dising the entire hobby, because that is where I started
out, That said, it is not a good hobby for someone with a family that
depends on them for income. By contrast, it's a great hobby for a
single guy who enjoys living on the edge. Fireworks can kill you,
often in a rather horrible and painful way. I see the new kids worried
about being burned by the sparks, that goes with the turf. What you
should really be worried about is a "muzzle break" or a "hang fire"
that ends up bursting in the mortar. Things that can kill you. If you
shoot fireworks long enough, you will encounter one or both of these.
If you continue after this experience, you are one of the true
fireworks junkies like me. This is preciely why safety precautions
need to be taken. Unfortunately the PGI does not focus on these safety
precautions (Mike S, we need to discuss this.)

As hazardous is the actual shooting of the fireworks, half of the
deaths that I know about happend while the fireworks were being
manufactured. Usually this was in the chemical mixing, not in the
shell production. Usually, the risk is associated with flash powder
production, and a few ounces of this stullf can be as lethal as a few
pounds. Sorry, no gorey details.

I don't own a mill, and neither did any of the fireworks factories
that I had dealings with. We simply puchase our black powder needs
from the unual suppliers like DuPont et all. I now know that amateurs
mill their own black powder. Wonderful, this will keep our nation
free from the soon to be appointed "black powder czar", Self
sufficincy is great. I really like that.

My only issue here is that ball mills can present and unpredicable
explosion risk. So, simple prudence requires that they be placed well
away from you home, powered by a 250' or so extension cord, and
constantly monitored during operation. The monitoring is to assure
that if they explose, no wildlife or local residents are in harms way.

Harry C.











.
 
 
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