On 25 Oct, 12:41, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net> wrote:



On Oct 25, 2:17 pm, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 25, 11:48 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:>"In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Better translation:  "In Germany, the custom of bearing supporters
with family arms is limited to the titled nobility."

Joseph McMillan

Looking through the Wappen Index I might say that that custom has not
been enforced for some time.  Personally, I do not use supporters, nor
wish them.

MES

This is an example of what I'm referring to with respect to the old
traditional style of communication of rank which includes AZ over an
ermine and corronets.  What I'm hearing from you Mark, is that - some
of these things - may be assumed today?

http://www.familie-greve.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=wappenindex&f....

I'd like to know who the owner of that achievment is: Greve family?,
and who did the outstanding artwork?

On 25 Oct, 12:41, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net> wrote:





On Oct 25, 2:17 pm, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 25, 11:48 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:>"In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Better translation:  "In Germany, the custom of bearing supporters
with family arms is limited to the titled nobility."

Joseph McMillan

Looking through the Wappen Index I might say that that custom has not
been enforced for some time.  Personally, I do not use supporters, nor
wish them.

MES

This is an example of what I'm referring to with respect to the old
traditional style of communication of rank which includes AZ over an
ermine and corronets.  What I'm hearing from you Mark, is that - some
of these things - may be assumed today?

http://www.familie-greve.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=wappenindex&f....

I'd like to know who the owner of that achievment is: Greve family?,
and who did the outstanding artwork?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Oct 25, 1:02 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:





On 25 Oct, 12:41, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net> wrote:

On Oct 25, 2:17 pm, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 25, 11:48 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:>"In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Better translation:  "In Germany, the custom of bearing supporters
with family arms is limited to the titled nobility."

Joseph McMillan

Looking through the Wappen Index I might say that that custom has not
been enforced for some time.  Personally, I do not use supporters, nor
wish them.

MES

This is an example of what I'm referring to with respect to the old
traditional style of communication of rank which includes AZ over an
ermine and corronets.  What I'm hearing from you Mark, is that - some
of these things - may be assumed today?

http://www.familie-greve.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=wappenindex&f...

I'd like to know who the owner of that achievment is: Greve family?,
and who did the outstanding artwork?

The text below the link is answering all your questions!
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Oct 25, 3:02 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:





On 25 Oct, 12:41, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net> wrote:

On Oct 25, 2:17 pm, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 25, 11:48 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:>"In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Better translation:  "In Germany, the custom of bearing supporters
with family arms is limited to the titled nobility."

Joseph McMillan

Looking through the Wappen Index I might say that that custom has not
been enforced for some time.  Personally, I do not use supporters, nor
wish them.

MES

This is an example of what I'm referring to with respect to the old
traditional style of communication of rank which includes AZ over an
ermine and corronets.  What I'm hearing from you Mark, is that - some
of these things - may be assumed today?

The coronet for untitled nobility if placed directly on the shield as
in this case does indicate an actual right to it.  Otherwise, on the
helm it is almost meaningless.



http://www.familie-greve.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=wappenindex&f...

I'd like to know who the owner of that achievment is: Greve family?,
and who did the outstanding artwork?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The arms belong to Christof Bail van Hasenhorst, a jonkheer of
Netherlands.  The damned fine artwork was done by Alexander Kurov.

MES- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On 26 Oct, 06:42, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net> wrote:





On Oct 25, 3:02 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

On 25 Oct, 12:41, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net> wrote:

On Oct 25, 2:17 pm, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 25, 11:48 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:>"In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Better translation:  "In Germany, the custom of bearing supporters
with family arms is limited to the titled nobility."

Joseph McMillan

Looking through the Wappen Index I might say that that custom has not
been enforced for some time.  Personally, I do not use supporters, nor
wish them.

MES

This is an example of what I'm referring to with respect to the old
traditional style of communication of rank which includes AZ over an
ermine and corronets.  What I'm hearing from you Mark, is that - some
of these things - may be assumed today?

The coronet for untitled nobility if placed directly on the shield as
in this case does indicate an actual right to it.  Otherwise, on the
helm it is almost meaningless.

http://www.familie-greve.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=wappenindex&f...

I'd like to know who the owner of that achievment is: Greve family?,
and who did the outstanding artwork?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The arms belong to Christof Bail van Hasenhorst, a jonkheer of
Netherlands.  The damned fine artwork was done by Alexander Kurov.

MES- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are four corronets: above the shield, above the helm and above
the crest and on top of the mantle.  What of the other three? Is this
usual?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On 25 Oct, 21:50, for Nicolai <imagemakers... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:





On Oct 25, 1:02 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

On 25 Oct, 12:41, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net> wrote:

On Oct 25, 2:17 pm, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 25, 11:48 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:>"In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Better translation:  "In Germany, the custom of bearing supporters
with family arms is limited to the titled nobility."

Joseph McMillan

Looking through the Wappen Index I might say that that custom has not
been enforced for some time.  Personally, I do not use supporters, nor
wish them.

MES

This is an example of what I'm referring to with respect to the old
traditional style of communication of rank which includes AZ over an
ermine and corronets.  What I'm hearing from you Mark, is that - some
of these things - may be assumed today?

http://www.familie-greve.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=wappenindex&f...

I'd like to know who the owner of that achievment is: Greve family?,
and who did the outstanding artwork?

The text below the link is answering all your questions!
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Very funny. But only Greve, not the rest of it.  Perhaps you can
answer the rest of the questions.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Oct 26, 10:03 am, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:





On 25 Oct, 21:50, for Nicolai <imagemakers... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:

On Oct 25, 1:02 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

On 25 Oct, 12:41, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net> wrote:

On Oct 25, 2:17 pm, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 25, 11:48 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:>"In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Better translation:  "In Germany, the custom of bearing supporters
with family arms is limited to the titled nobility."

Joseph McMillan

Looking through the Wappen Index I might say that that custom has not
been enforced for some time.  Personally, I do not use supporters, nor
wish them.

MES

This is an example of what I'm referring to with respect to the old
traditional style of communication of rank which includes AZ over an
ermine and corronets.  What I'm hearing from you Mark, is that - some
of these things - may be assumed today?

http://www.familie-greve.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=wappenindex&f...

I'd like to know who the owner of that achievment is: Greve family?,
and who did the outstanding artwork?

The text below the link is answering all your questions!
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Very funny. But only Greve, not the rest of it.  Perhaps you can
answer the rest of the questions.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Familie-Greve is the name of the website.  Bail is the name for the
arms indicated.  Below the arms is a detail in german regarding the
blazon and registration.

MES- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This topic has come up before and I would like to approach it once
more:  with what could be termed a watering down of heraldic
proprieties: lack of soverign  support and oversight, relaxations in
some sovereign presentations, i.e. the English helm afronte for
aesthetic purposes, forms of pseudo-heraldry etc.  It all begs the
question of where heraldry as an institution will be in 100 or so
years and secondly is there any evidence that heraldry can be shorn-up
by monarchies and republics that have an established practice of it?