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| Jon... |
 Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:04 pm |
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I've finally had the time to focus on swimming in my life and am using
my time for a quarter-mile interval as a test of progress. Today, I
tried one interval where I focussed on "grabbing" the water as solidly
as possible with each stroke. My overall tempo went down and I
assumed I'd be slower than normal, but it turned out I cut 30 seconds
off my time.
Subjectively, I felt like I was using my legs more, I felt "flatter"
in the water, and I was expending more effort (alternate side
breathing gave me barely enough air).
So, I'm wondering if this is progress or a setback? Is there
something about focussing on not letting my hand slip that required
more propulsion from my legs (or, perhaps, better syncing with my
kicks?)
Thanks in advance,
Jon |
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| MW Smith... |
| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:30 pm |
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On Jun 29, 12:04 am, Jon <jonl... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: I've finally had the time to focus on swimming in my life and am using
my time for a quarter-mile interval as a test of progress. Today, I
tried one interval where I focussed on "grabbing" the water as solidly
as possible with each stroke. My overall tempo went down and I
assumed I'd be slower than normal, but it turned out I cut 30 seconds
off my time.
Subjectively, I felt like I was using my legs more, I felt "flatter"
in the water, and I was expending more effort (alternate side
breathing gave me barely enough air).
So, I'm wondering if this is progress or a setback? Is there
something about focussing on not letting my hand slip that required
more propulsion from my legs (or, perhaps, better syncing with my
kicks?)
You went 30 seconds faster and you don't know if it was progress or a
setback? |
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| Jon... |
| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:50 pm |
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Quote:
You went 30 seconds faster and you don't know if it was progress or a
setback?
With significantly more effort.... |
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| MW Smith... |
| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:02 pm |
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On Jun 29, 12:50 am, Jon <jonl... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: You went 30 seconds faster and you don't know if it was progress or a
setback?
With significantly more effort....
Swimming consumes energy. Swimming fast consumes more energy, no
matter what the books tell you. |
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| Steve Freides... |
| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:57 pm |
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"Jon" <jonlpxc at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:41820b37-a85c-4580-969d-ed5bb0c986cb at (no spam) l12g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
Quote: I've finally had the time to focus on swimming in my life and am using
my time for a quarter-mile interval as a test of progress. Today, I
tried one interval where I focussed on "grabbing" the water as solidly
as possible with each stroke. My overall tempo went down and I
assumed I'd be slower than normal, but it turned out I cut 30 seconds
off my time.
Subjectively, I felt like I was using my legs more, I felt "flatter"
in the water, and I was expending more effort (alternate side
breathing gave me barely enough air).
So, I'm wondering if this is progress or a setback? Is there
something about focussing on not letting my hand slip that required
more propulsion from my legs (or, perhaps, better syncing with my
kicks?)
Thanks in advance,
Jon
As I seem to say often here, best would be the advice of a swimming
coach watching you do it both ways in the water. It does follow that
setting a new personal best at a particular distance would leave you
feeling tired. My guess is that repeated practice with this type of
stroke would, all other things being equal, turn out to be something
you'd adapt to and that would make you a faster, more efficient swimmer
overall.
A great way to get feedback on how much water you're actually grabbing,
at least in my opinion, is to swim with paddles and leg floats.
But it's really impossible to say over the Internet much more about what
you did. Someone needs to watch you in the water. In the end, the only
question you can ask yourself is did you just swim harder and therefore
faster or did you actually improve your stroke? Pulling harder can feel
like grabbing more water because the resistance is higher when you pull
harder.
Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it here on rec.sport.swimming.
:)
-S- |
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| MW Smith... |
| Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:12 am |
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On Jun 29, 12:50 am, Jon <jonl... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: You went 30 seconds faster and you don't know if it was progress or a
setback?
With significantly more effort....
I see what you are getting at. Are you kicking harder? If so, that
explains your feeling. If not, then simply catching more water with
your hands while maintaining the same stroke rate will obviously
consume more energy. And, since your legs burn a lot of energy if you
are doing a six-beat kick, it is likely that you will feel the effect
of the oxygen debt there.
But this might be cause for concern: "Subjectively, I felt like I was
using my legs more, I felt "flatter"
in the water..."
If you felt flatter in the water, and what you are trying to do is
catch more water with your hands, you might be doing just that but you
might be doing it incorrectly. You're doing it incorrectly if you are
pushing down with your hands, which is a common error for swimmers
trying to increase their catch without supervision. Pushing down
certainly feels like you are catching more water, because you are, but
pushing down, while it will give you that flatter feeling, is wasted
energy, and it will put unwanted stress on your shoulders that will
end in repetitive stress injury.
On the other hand, pulling straight back isn't optimal either. You
want to shape the stroke so you get the advantage of what is called
the "reach" in sailing. Basically, a sailboat moves fastest, not with
the wind at its back but sailing across the wind. In crawlstroke, this
is achieved by shaping each stroke as a minor bulge to the outside at
first and then back in near the bottom and past the suit.
But I agree Steve's recommendation that to optimize this requires
being observed by someone who knows what to look for and how to get
you to do it. |
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| Jon... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:41 pm |
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You're doing it incorrectly if you are
Quote: pushing down with your hands, which is a common error for swimmers
trying to increase their catch without supervision. Pushing down
certainly feels like you are catching more water, because you are, but
pushing down, while it will give you that flatter feeling, is wasted
energy, and it will put unwanted stress on your shoulders that will
end in repetitive stress injury.
Great point, as I think this is part of what felt wrong to me. And
shoulders did hurt afterwards.
Quote:
want to shape the stroke so you get the advantage of what is called
the "reach" in sailing. Basically, a sailboat moves fastest, not with
the wind at its back but sailing across the wind.
An interesting point that I have never heard applied to swimming
before. It's the same as in cross country skiing using skating
technique, where you push outwards against the ski, but the ski
translates this force into forward motion. I played with that a bit
today, and if nothing else, it was much easier on my shoulder.
I get the message that having a knowledgeable pair of eyes is really
necessary to make progress. I've got to find out who that might be in
my area....
Thanks again,
Jon |
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| andresmuro at (no spam) aol.com... |
| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:41 am |
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On Jul 5, 8:41 pm, Jon <jonl... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: You're doing it incorrectly if you are
pushing down with your hands, which is a common error for swimmers
trying to increase their catch without supervision. Pushing down
certainly feels like you are catching more water, because you are, but
pushing down, while it will give you that flatter feeling, is wasted
energy, and it will put unwanted stress on your shoulders that will
end in repetitive stress injury.
Great point, as I think this is part of what felt wrong to me. And
shoulders did hurt afterwards.
want to shape the stroke so you get the advantage of what is called
the "reach" in sailing. Basically, a sailboat moves fastest, not with
the wind at its back but sailing across the wind.
An interesting point that I have never heard applied to swimming
before. It's the same as in cross country skiing using skating
technique, where you push outwards against the ski, but the ski
translates this force into forward motion. I played with that a bit
today, and if nothing else, it was much easier on my shoulder.
I get the message that having a knowledgeable pair of eyes is really
necessary to make progress. I've got to find out who that might be in
my area....
Thanks again,
Jon
If you want to see a proper catch, go to you tube and type swimming
and catch and freestyle, etc, etc. There are some excelent videos. The
catch, as Martin suggests, is tricky. As you finish gliding, you keep
your elbow high and begin to drop the forearm with the hand pointing
sligthtly out. During this part of the motion the arm should be
relaxed. When the forearm makes a 45 degree angle is when you start
pulling back while bringing your hand inwards and under your torso,
keeping your elbow bent. You need to see it on video and there are
some excellent ones in slow motion of Grant Hacket's underwater catch
and pull. Dave Scott also has some instructional videos. |
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