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Hobby Forum Index » Guns » 9mm+p+safety...
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| j c... |
 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:51 pm |
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Guest
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hi everybody.......i have a question. is it safe to shoot federal 9mm
+p+ rounds in a beretta 92F?..........thankyou....Jodie
i forgot to tell you the bullets are 124 gr JHP
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| D. Parker... |
| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:02 pm |
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On Jul 16, 8:51 pm, RJA... at (no spam) webtv.net (j c) wrote:
According to the latest 92-series owner's manual (http://tinyurl.com/
5clat5):
"We do not recommend extended use of +P, +P+ or submachine gun
ammunition because the chamber pressure may reach or exceed proof load
pressure decreasing the major service components service life
expectancy."
So....safe? I don't know. But the manufacturer doesn't sound too
confident about it.
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| Clark Magnuson... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:05 pm |
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j c wrote:
# hi everybody.......i have a question. is it safe to shoot federal 9mm
# +p+ rounds in a beretta 92F?..........thankyou....Jodie
Alliant handloading guide calls 9mm Luger 1.150" OAL 6.6 gr Power Pistol
125 gr FMJ 34,000 psi
To get +P one can approximate this 10% extra pressure with 5% extra powder.
To get +P+ one can approximate this 20% extra pressure with 10% extra powder
That would make 125 gr loads +P at 6.93 gr
That would make 125 gr loads +P+ with 7.26 gr
I have shot a few magazines of 10 gr Power Pistol 124 gr Hornady FP
1.169" OAL in a Berretta 92S.
That means I have been shooting ~ 50% extra powder = +P+++++++++ [10
pluses] in a Berretta 92S.
Quickload thinks this is 147,000 psi, but is wrong, because the primer
does not pierce.
But what is safe?
The Kel-Tec P11 9mm has been shooting 11 gr Power Pistol 158 gr 1.169"
OAL, loaded ammo resized, larger chamber throat to accommodate longer
and wider bullet.
That would be +P+++++++++++++++++++ [20 pluses]
Quickload calculates this at over 1,000,000 psi, but is wrong, because
the primer does not pierce. The primer will pierce at 8 gr in a work up
if the ammo cannot fall in and out of the chamber.
The Kel-Tec has .95" thick chamber walls. 9mm cases have webs .160"
thick. The P11 has case support at .190" leaving .030" of thin case wall
unsupported to blow a hole in the case over the feed ramp.
The 92S has .10" thick chamber walls. The 92S has case support .163"
from the breech face leaving .003" of thin unsupported case wall.
So the P11 can shoot 20 pluses ammo and the 92S is stronger, what then
is the downside of shooting +P+ ammo in your 92F?
From the above extrapolation, we can see that your pistol is not going
to split the chamber like a CZ52.
It is not going to blow out a guppy belly hole in the case and shoot gas
down the feed ramp that blows the bottom off the magazine and hits you
in the foot with your ammo and magazine spring.
What is going to go wrong with +P+ in the 92F?
The projectile and gas going forward makes the barrel, slide, frame,
hand, and arm go back.
The energy of slide movement [and a little of the barrel movement]
relative to the frame is stored in the recoil spring.
If the energy is too large or the spring too weak, then the slide
hammers the frame. That is not good for the frame and not good for your
hand.
Different ammo has different inertia and different hands have different
mass and compliance. The pistol comes with a one size fits all spring.
If that spring is too stiff, the gun jams.
If that spring is too weak, the slide slams the frame.
What does that mean?
Your slide is already slamming your frame, not good for the frame and
not good for your hand.
+P+ ammo does it worse.
What can you do?
Shoot +P+ ammo with the right spring, and get no slide slam.
I have already done the math and posted it on rec.guns in 1999 and 2006:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_thread/thread/c66263b6116312b/1467774bb209a9e2?hl=en&lnk=st&q=#1467774bb209a9e2
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| ... |
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:52 am |
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On Jul 16, 9:51 pm, RJA... at (no spam) webtv.net (j c) wrote:
Shooting large quantities of hot loads, plus p or hot hand loads, is
always a very bad idea. Pictures abound on the net of damage done to
practically brand new guns such as galling of the slide and other
internal parts. One picture I saw of a Walther p99 in cal. 40 was
particularly shocking as the gun was brand new and the wear on the
interal parts was very severe from the hot loads.
Berretta had problems with the slides blowing up with full power
military loads and came up with a band-aid solution by putting bit
more metal in the slide. If you look close you will see a slight rise
in the metal on the slide rails. Its not much metal and is not very
comforting even to look at. As mentioned in the above post they also
put in a larger hammer pin to help deflect the flying razor edge
shrapnel that will be propelled backward into the shooters face when
the slide come apart.
I read some years ago on the net about a court case Beretta lost when
a civilian bought a commercial Berretta the blew up in his face from
a failed slide.
Certain guns like the Glock although the slide will take the plus p
loads the chamber will not as the generous throating often lets the
case blow out because the rear end of the case has little support. It
has happened far more regularly on the .40 calibers than the 9mm
calibers. I personally would not shoot a .40 Glock or stand next to a
person that is shooting one.
Even the legendary Browning High Power that was built to take high
pressure loads will over time also suffer from cracked slides when
many thousands of full power military loads are used.
One of the few 9x19 guns that was darn near indestructible was the
Star Model 28/30 guns that were built like tanks from solid steel
forgings (no plastic, no castings and no stamped sheet metal
parts). They were known to go as much as 180,000 rounds of full power
loads. Because the gun was expensive to make it is now no longer made
and the Spanish government shut the plant down a number of years ago
despite the fact the Spanish army was armed with this excellent gun.
If you are lucking enough to own a Star 28 or Star 30, treasure it
always and never ever even think of selling it.
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| Wayne... |
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:53 am |
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"Clark Magnuson" <c.magnuson at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote in message
news:g6lnqa$oj6$1 at (no spam) grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Sean Elkins wrote:
#
# #
# # Does the fact that the earliest model 92's adopted by the military
# # suffered from slide fractures play into this decision somehow?
# #
# # I don't doubt your math, but maybe splitting the barrel isn't the only
# # failure mode the Beretta shooter needs to worry about. I seem to recall
# # that they began retrofitting the guns with a device to capture the rear
# # of the slide if it separated. In fact, wasn't it pretty widely reported
# # that a couple of Navy Seals suffered severe facial injuries whey the
# # rear of the slide struck them?
# #
# # Maybe the OP needs to find out if his pistol has this safety feature
# # installed----or trade it on a Glock, Sig or HK if he wants to feed it a
# # heavy diet of stout loads.
# #
# # Your thoughts?
#
# I don't know much about the military's problems, but I do have some
# thoughts:
#
# a) Having the right spring would get rid of most of the slide peak stress.
#
# b) I heard that the early 92 slide would pull off toward the target. If
# you pointed the pistol at a prisoner, he could grab the slide and pull
# it off. I heard they fixed that.
#
You mean like that Jet Li/Mel Gibson fight scene?
My 92FS is about 3 years old and the slide comes off very easily in the
target direction. I consider that to be a major plus of the pistol. It
can be completely dissasembled for cleaning in about 3-4 seconds. Changing
from 9mm to 22LR takes only about 10 seconds.
# c) There is another failure I have seen called "major face". It was
# named for the blood on the faces of those who tried hot rod hand load to
# make major power factor with 9mm. If the case head blows off, bits of
# powder and brass can come back through the ejector slot in the slide.
# When this debris blows out the back of the pistol it can hit the shooter
# in the face. This would be very hard to do with just hot ammo with a 92
# type, but if the barrel were full of water, it could be done.
#
# d) The Glock 9mm pistols are not as good at the 92 type pistols for hot
# loads, but are good enough. They have case support at .190" from the
# breech face under the feed ramp.[Kel-Tec P11 level of support]. I don't
# have a Sig or HK.
#
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