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Rich Hutnik...
Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:20 pm
Guest
http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=InternetVsGary

Check this thread out on the Chess Variant site.

The basic idea is to have a game of chess (or any abstract strategy
game) and at least one side (if not both sides) collectively votes on
what the move should be. In event of a tie for votes, the first
proposed tied move would be the move the side would make. During a
given time period, people are allowed to change their votes.

In a single player vs mode (Kasparov vs the World) you have a top
player take on the world, or a group, or like the Internet. In the
case of the Internet, people could use computers to come up with
moves.

Another approach is to have people join into a game as one side or
another and they would then have a rooting and voting interest in
their side winning. Both sides end up being voted upon.

Any comments here? We may have something that is doable.

- Rich
David Goldfarb...
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:12 am
Guest
In article <217f16cf-a509-48b5-b529-54e98d0d0913 at (no spam) r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Rich Hutnik <richardhutnik at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
The basic idea is to have a game of chess (or any abstract strategy
game) and at least one side (if not both sides) collectively votes on
what the move should be. In event of a tie for votes, the first
proposed tied move would be the move the side would make. During a
given time period, people are allowed to change their votes.

In a single player vs mode (Kasparov vs the World) you have a top
player take on the world, or a group, or like the Internet. In the
case of the Internet, people could use computers to come up with
moves.

The site chessgames.com already does this. Their "World" team has
already taken on and beaten correspondence GM Arno Nickel, and
current US Champion Yury Shulman; a game with correspondence World
Champion Geurt Jan Timmerman is in its final stages, and expected
to be yet another win. (A rematch with Nickel is upcoming.)

--
David Goldfarb |"Thanks for the Dadaist pep talk. I feel
goldfarb at (no spam) ocf.berkeley.edu | much more abstract now."
goldfarb at (no spam) csua.berkeley.edu | -- Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Peter Clinch...
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:10 am
Guest
Rich Hutnik wrote:

Quote:
The basic idea is to have a game of chess (or any abstract strategy
game) and at least one side (if not both sides) collectively votes on
what the move should be. In event of a tie for votes, the first
proposed tied move would be the move the side would make. During a
given time period, people are allowed to change their votes.

Or there's Nomic, where you're voting on the rules you play by...

Quote:
Any comments here? We may have something that is doable.

Existing collaborative games tend to force democracy on people that like
to win them: Scotland Yard will be a free run for any half smart Mr. X
if the (notionally separate) police players don't pool their thoughts
and act together.

Perhaps a more interesting scenario is in a multi-player game.
Something like 18xx but with railways run not by majority shareholding
director but by votes of share holders. That could get interesting as
shareholders will have stakes in more than one company, so they don't
necessarily have an interest in the best possible performance of every
company they get a vote with.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch at (no spam) dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Rich Hutnik...
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:53 am
Guest
On Jul 4, 6:12 am, goldf... at (no spam) OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) wrote:
Quote:
In article <217f16cf-a509-48b5-b529-54e98d0d0... at (no spam) r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Rich Hutnik <richardhut... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

The basic idea is to have a game of chess (or any abstract strategy
game) and at least one side (if not both sides) collectively votes on
what the move should be. In event of a tie for votes, the first
proposed tied move would be the move the side would make. During a
given time period, people are allowed to change their votes.

In a single player vs mode (Kasparov vs the World) you have a top
player take on the world, or a group, or like the Internet. In the
case of the Internet, people could use computers to come up with
moves.

The site chessgames.com already does this. Their "World" team has
already taken on and beaten correspondence GM Arno Nickel, and
current US Champion Yury Shulman; a game with correspondence World
Champion Geurt Jan Timmerman is in its final stages, and expected
to be yet another win. (A rematch with Nickel is upcoming.)

How about one with two "world" teams battling one another?

- Rich
Bruno Wolff III...
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:45 am
Guest
On 2008-07-04, Rich Hutnik <richardhutnik at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:

The basic idea is to have a game of chess (or any abstract strategy
game) and at least one side (if not both sides) collectively votes on
what the move should be. In event of a tie for votes, the first
proposed tied move would be the move the side would make. During a
given time period, people are allowed to change their votes.

Strategy and Tactics did this about 30 years ago for an SPI game. (I don't
remember which one.) It was one of the regular contributors against everyone
willing to mail in a move. The masses got crunched.
Rich Hutnik...
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:58 am
Guest
On Jul 4, 2:20 am, Rich Hutnik <richardhut... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=Interne...

Check this thread out on the Chess Variant site.

By the way, I have kicked the idea of chess moves determined by voting
around further, where a crowd plays a game of chess collectively. I
am looking at "Vox Populi Chess":
http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=VoxPopuliChess

The idea here is divide the crowd up into 2 teams, and each team votes
on a move. After both sides have made a move, members of the crowd
can end up switching sides. Points are scored for staying with one
side or another. It needs work, but that is the idea. Please
comment.

Comments?
- Rich
Christopher Dearlove...
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:16 pm
Guest
In message
<217f16cf-a509-48b5-b529-54e98d0d0913 at (no spam) r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Rich Hutnik <richardhutnik at (no spam) gmail.com> writes
Quote:
The basic idea is to have a game of chess (or any abstract strategy
game) and at least one side (if not both sides) collectively votes on
what the move should be.

Not chess, not an abstract strategy game, and not a simple voting
mechanism, but Stephensons Rocket has a sort of voting mechanism
where track goes.

--
Christopher Dearlove
Ed Murphy...
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:58 pm
Guest
Peter Clinch wrote:

Quote:
Rich Hutnik wrote:

The basic idea is to have a game of chess (or any abstract strategy
game) and at least one side (if not both sides) collectively votes on
what the move should be. In event of a tie for votes, the first
proposed tied move would be the move the side would make. During a
given time period, people are allowed to change their votes.

Or there's Nomic, where you're voting on the rules you play by...

Blatant plug: http://www.agoranomic.org/
and http://www.nomic.net/ for many others
Nick Wedd...
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:26 am
Guest
In message
<5a63ed6a-741f-4c5e-bcc7-3f78a7664784 at (no spam) k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Rich Hutnik <richardhutnik at (no spam) gmail.com> writes
Quote:
On Jul 4, 2:20 am, Rich Hutnik <richardhut... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=Interne...

Check this thread out on the Chess Variant site.

By the way, I have kicked the idea of chess moves determined by voting
around further, where a crowd plays a game of chess collectively. I
am looking at "Vox Populi Chess":
http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=VoxPopuliChess

The idea here is divide the crowd up into 2 teams, and each team votes
on a move. After both sides have made a move, members of the crowd
can end up switching sides. Points are scored for staying with one
side or another. It needs work, but that is the idea. Please
comment.

Comments?

Normally I will want the side I am on to win the game. If I believe my
understanding of the position is greater than that of my team-mates, I
will of course vote for what I think is the best move. But generally I
won't believe this, and should then abstain.

Things are more interesting if I plan on switching sides after this
move. So I want the side I am voting with to pick a bad move. How
should I go about this? If I just vote for a very bad move, it won't
get it selected. I have to look for a bad move which might plausibly be
selected.

Nick
--
Nick Wedd nick at (no spam) maproom.co.uk
Rich Hutnik...
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:32 am
Guest
On Jul 6, 4:26 am, Nick Wedd <n... at (no spam) maproom.co.uk> wrote:
Quote:
Normally I will want the side I am on to win the game. If I believe my
understanding of the position is greater than that of my team-mates, I
will of course vote for what I think is the best move. But generally I
won't believe this, and should then abstain.

Things are more interesting if I plan on switching sides after this
move. So I want the side I am voting with to pick a bad move. How
should I go about this? If I just vote for a very bad move, it won't
get it selected. I have to look for a bad move which might plausibly be
selected.

Nick

The top voted on move should be for a side. If the top move sucks, it
means most people are set to defect. The idea is supposed to be you
decide to switch after both sides made their moves. If the teams
consist of small numbers, where you get to politic for a certain move
to take place, I do see looking for a plausible bad move would be a
possibility. However, if there are large numbers in it, I am not sure
how effective that is. Also, what I am proposing is the top vote
getter (or top 3 or 4 with the most popular one on top) is shown at
all times. People may just gravitate around the first one, if it
seems sound.

I do believe more work is needed here though, which is the reason for
discussing things.

- Rich
Harald Korneliussen...
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:37 am
Guest
If the goal is finding the person in the audience with the most skill,
I think you need to take into account how many people are on the side
switched to. If everyone has defected to white except one, and that
one wins, he should win the meta-game as well.

I suggest this as a measure of an audience member's score, added for
each move: The total number of people you managed to tempt over to
your side, divided by the the number of people already on your side.
The switching player also loses one point. This keeps the game zero-
sum, which is a very good idea.

If all players end up on one side, the game is obviously over and you
just calculate the winner among the audience. If the game ends in
checkmate (pretty unlikely, I'd think), consider all members on the
losing team as having switched to the winning.
Peter Clinch...
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:48 am
Guest
Nick Wedd wrote:

Quote:
Things are more interesting if I plan on switching sides after this
move. So I want the side I am voting with to pick a bad move. How
should I go about this? If I just vote for a very bad move, it won't
get it selected. I have to look for a bad move which might plausibly be
selected.

Quite often play three-handed go, with alternate moves for black and
white going around the three players, so you change sides every move...
makes matters /interesting/ and takes out all of those long range "I go
there, he goes there, I go there...) plots.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch at (no spam) dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Harald Korneliussen...
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:54 am
Guest
Oh, and by the way, Rich, this is one of your better ideas Smile It
sounds like it would be a great deal of fun.
Rich Hutnik...
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:48 am
Guest
On Jul 7, 8:37 am, Harald Korneliussen <vinterm... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
If the goal is finding the person in the audience with the most skill,
I think you need to take into account how many people are on the side
switched to. If everyone has defected to white except one, and that
one wins, he should win the meta-game as well.

As I see it, if one person is left and he wins, then he should be the
winner, if he didn't defect. I am not sure the skill will be best
chess player, but competent chess player who can best assess the teams
and the positions on the board. My goal for this is not necessarily
to find the member of the crowd that is the best player, but have an
intriguing form of chess (or other game) that will draw people in to
want to play. No guarantee of optimal play either developing. You
just want INTERESTING play.

Quote:
I suggest this as a measure of an audience member's score, added for
each move: The total number of people you managed to tempt over to
your side, divided by the the number of people already on your side.
The switching player also loses one point. This keeps the game zero-
sum, which is a very good idea.

For the sake of balancing purpose, I am considering having an added
costs to switching to a side with more players on it. This could also
happen in the beginning regarding the seating of players. I believe
what you ideally want it the teams to be balanced for as long as
possible, until there is a "crash" that happens where one side's
position is royally messed up, then a mass defect where the game ends.

Quote:
If all players end up on one side, the game is obviously over and you
just calculate the winner among the audience. If the game ends in
checkmate (pretty unlikely, I'd think), consider all members on the
losing team as having switched to the winning.

There is an issue regarding if the position would likely be a draw
that needs to be dealt with. Dealing with it properly is the best way
and strongest solution. Of course, games without draws don't need to
worry. By the way, thanks for the complement in the other post.

- Rich
Christopher Dearlove...
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:03 pm
Guest
In message
<99382164-6cf4-49c6-915e-2d4532626376 at (no spam) 34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Rich
Hutnik <richardhutnik at (no spam) gmail.com> writes
Quote:
I do believe more work is needed here though, which is the reason for
discussing things.

The logical approach is that the candidates to switch sides are the
outvoted players.

--
Christopher Dearlove
 
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