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Hobby Forum Index » Music - Compose » Finale mid-measure clef sign problem...
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| Neil... |
 Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:15 am |
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[Finale 2003a r1] I’m trying to insert a Treble Clef sign on the bass
clef (lower) staff at the beginning of Measure 1, but I want the Bass
Clef sign to remain – so in this order: Bass Clef sign, Time
Signature, smaller Treble Clef sign, notes. As I move the mid-measure
Treble Clef sign closer to the beginning of the measure, to get it in
front of all the notes and just after the Time Signature, the Bass
Clef sign is replaced by a full size Treble Clef sign and the mid-
measure Treble Clef sign disappears. And before that occurs, the
opening four notes (all the notes in the measure are 1/8th notes – 8
of them – 4/4 time) get split between being Bass Clef notes and Treble
Clef notes. Thanks for any help – if you would like me to email you
the *.mus file, email me if you have that option – I have it up to the
point where the mid-measure clef is just before beat 3.
Neil Miller, author of The Piano Lessons Book
Enter in Amazon.com search: Neil Miller Piano Lessons Book |
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| Steve Latham... |
| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:49 pm |
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"Neil" <nhmiller at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:26eccca6-7855-4d94-b1e2-ce258766aeed at (no spam) w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
[Finale 2003a r1] I’m trying to insert a Treble Clef sign on the bass
clef (lower) staff at the beginning of Measure 1,
Then it's not a mid-measure clef.
but I want the Bass
Clef sign to remain – so in this order: Bass Clef sign, Time
Signature, smaller Treble Clef sign, notes.
That's not proper. That's why Finale won't do it.
However, it can be done. The easiest way is as Text - use the Text tool,
select Maestro (or Petrucci etc.) font and select the treble clef (I think
it's shift-7 - the "&" sign) and just size the font and put it where you
want.
If you want it to be attached to a measure, you can create it similarly as
an expression or articulation - expression is easier.
As I move the mid-measure
Treble Clef sign closer to the beginning of the measure, to get it in
front of all the notes and just after the Time Signature, the Bass
Clef sign is replaced by a full size Treble Clef sign and the mid-
measure Treble Clef sign disappears.
Right. That's the proper way to engrave music. You're trying to do something
that's not correct, like putting a whole note in a 2/4 measure. Finale won't
let you do it. You have to "trick" it and do it graphically instead.
And before that occurs, the
opening four notes (all the notes in the measure are 1/8th notes – 8
of them – 4/4 time) get split between being Bass Clef notes and Treble
Clef notes. Thanks for any help – if you would like me to email you
the *.mus file, email me if you have that option – I have it up to the
point where the mid-measure clef is just before beat 3.
My question is WHY you're trying to do it this way. If the first measure LH
is to begin in Treble, you just put Treble at the beginning and put a Bass
clef in when it does switch back. Finale is grouping the 8th notes in 2
groups of 4 which is traditional in 4/4. You could go in and break the beams
to make 4 groups of 2 and then the mid-measure clef could be on beat 2 for
example with everything looking correct. But again, if all 8 notes are going
to be Treble, you put Treble in at the beginning, not mid measure.
Steve |
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| Melodious Thunk... |
| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:13 pm |
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On Jun 22, 10:15 am, Neil <nhmil... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
Quote: [Finale 2003a r1] I’m trying to insert a Treble Clef sign on the bass
clef (lower) staff at the beginning of Measure 1, but I want the Bass
Clef sign to remain – so in this order: Bass Clef sign, Time
Signature, smaller Treble Clef sign, notes. As I move the mid-measure
Treble Clef sign closer to the beginning of the measure, to get it in
front of all the notes and just after the Time Signature, the Bass
Clef sign is replaced by a full size Treble Clef sign and the mid-
measure Treble Clef sign disappears. And before that occurs, the
opening four notes (all the notes in the measure are 1/8th notes – 8
of them – 4/4 time) get split between being Bass Clef notes and Treble
Clef notes. Thanks for any help – if you would like me to email you
the *.mus file, email me if you have that option – I have it up to the
point where the mid-measure clef is just before beat 3.
Neil Miller, author of The Piano Lessons Book
Enter in Amazon.com search: Neil Miller Piano Lessons Book
I haven't seen a small G clef used that way; do you know of any
examples from classical piano music?
Even in a beginner's book, I don't think that starting out both staves
in treble clef will be ambiguous... you *are* teaching them how to
read, after all. When the clef switches later in the music, as I'm
sure you know, I'm accustomed to reading the clef-switch after the
last note in the preceding measure.
Heh, that being said, there might be some notation-only software that
will do what you want. I used to use Composer's Mosaic... it would let
you do anything you wanted to, notation-correctness be damned! (Very
useful for percussion writing.) But for doing it in Finale, Steve's
suggestion of doing it in a graphical-only way is probably the best,
although playback will be incorrect (if you need correct playback, a
'hidden' layer would do the trick). Good luck. |
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| David Sherman... |
| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:34 pm |
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Simply enter two treble clefs at the beginning of the piece. There's no law
that the lower clef must me a bass clef.
If you determine the the lower staff must have a bass clef here are a couple
of ideas:
Write the LH part on the upper staff with all stems down - the RH part will
have all stems up - and leave the lower staff blank (clef, key signature and
time signature, no rests or anything else.) To be absolutely safe you can
put a little "L.H." below the upper staff at the beginning of the measure.
Ledger lines. They're part of reading music too! For beginners one or two,
and intermediates, two or three ledger lines would probably be the limit.
Of the three options my personal preference would be the option of writing
the L.H. Part on the upper staff until the notes can be notated comfortably
on the lower staff in the bass clef.
On 6/22/08 7:13 PM, in article
08a8c8d6-356f-42a3-b05c-b2a6f4ba7ef2 at (no spam) w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com, "Melodious
Thunk" <thunk.melodious at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Jun 22, 10:15 am, Neil <nhmil... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
[Finale 2003a r1] I¹m trying to insert a Treble Clef sign on the bass
clef (lower) staff at the beginning of Measure 1, but I want the Bass
Clef sign to remain so in this order: Bass Clef sign, Time
Signature, smaller Treble Clef sign, notes. As I move the mid-measure
Treble Clef sign closer to the beginning of the measure, to get it in
front of all the notes and just after the Time Signature, the Bass
Clef sign is replaced by a full size Treble Clef sign and the mid-
measure Treble Clef sign disappears. And before that occurs, the
opening four notes (all the notes in the measure are 1/8th notes 8
of them 4/4 time) get split between being Bass Clef notes and Treble
Clef notes. Thanks for any help if you would like me to email you
the *.mus file, email me if you have that option I have it up to the
point where the mid-measure clef is just before beat 3.
Neil Miller, author of The Piano Lessons Book
Enter in Amazon.com search: Neil Miller Piano Lessons Book |
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| Neil... |
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:05 am |
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On Jun 22, 10:15 am, Neil <nhmil... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
Quote: [Finale 2003a r1] I’m trying to insert a Treble Clef sign on the bass
clef (lower) staff at the beginning of Measure 1, but I want the Bass
Clef sign to remain – so in this order: Bass Clef sign, Time
Signature, smaller Treble Clef sign, notes. As I move the mid-measure
Treble Clef sign closer to the beginning of the measure, to get it in
front of all the notes and just after the Time Signature, the Bass
Clef sign is replaced by a full size Treble Clef sign and the mid-
measure Treble Clef sign disappears. And before that occurs, the
opening four notes (all the notes in the measure are 1/8th notes – 8
of them – 4/4 time) get split between being Bass Clef notes and Treble
Clef notes. Thanks for any help – if you would like me to email you
the *.mus file, email me if you have that option – I have it up to the
point where the mid-measure clef is just before beat 3.
Neil Miller, author of The Piano Lessons Book
Enter in Amazon.com search: Neil Miller Piano Lessons Book
Thanks everyone for your suggestions and education. Steve's saying to
try the text tool allowed me to get the result I wanted with no effect
on the playback. Here's what I did in Finale 2003a r1 --
First check Never for Show Clef for measure 1, using Clef Tool.
Use Text Tool to place Clefs –
Maestro ?22 and &17 are closest to full Bass and Mid-Measure (default
is 75%) Treble.
Regarding why do it this way. First, I agree with you that it would be
easier for everyone just to make both clefs in Measure 1 Treble Clefs,
and after all this, that is what I may do -- I'm going to discuss this
with my students this week to see which way is easier to read -- to me
and I'm sure you three, it makes no difference. You will have no
trouble looking through your music and music your students use and
finding examples of [Bass Clef sign, Time Signature, smaller Treble
Clef sign, notes -- and it's upper clef counterpart]. Whether it's the
belief that it's better by composers, editors or publishers, it is
somewhat common. I'll be happy to attach scans of examples to an email
reply if you'll email me through Reply to author.
Neil Miller, author of The Piano Lessons Book
Enter in Amazon.com search: Neil Miller Piano Lessons Book |
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| Melodious Thunk... |
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:29 pm |
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On Jun 23, 8:05 am, Neil <nhmil... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
Quote: On Jun 22, 10:15 am, Neil <nhmil... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
[Finale 2003a r1] I’m trying to insert a Treble Clef sign on the bass
clef (lower) staff at the beginning of Measure 1, but I want the Bass
Clef sign to remain – so in this order: Bass Clef sign, Time
Signature, smaller Treble Clef sign, notes. As I move the mid-measure
Treble Clef sign closer to the beginning of the measure, to get it in
front of all the notes and just after the Time Signature, the Bass
Clef sign is replaced by a full size Treble Clef sign and the mid-
measure Treble Clef sign disappears. And before that occurs, the
opening four notes (all the notes in the measure are 1/8th notes – 8
of them – 4/4 time) get split between being Bass Clef notes and Treble
Clef notes. Thanks for any help – if you would like me to email you
the *.mus file, email me if you have that option – I have it up to the
point where the mid-measure clef is just before beat 3.
Neil Miller, author of The Piano Lessons Book
Enter in Amazon.com search: Neil Miller Piano Lessons Book
Thanks everyone for your suggestions and education. Steve's saying to
try the text tool allowed me to get the result I wanted with no effect
on the playback. Here's what I did in Finale 2003a r1 --
First check Never for Show Clef for measure 1, using Clef Tool.
Use Text Tool to place Clefs –
Maestro ?22 and &17 are closest to full Bass and Mid-Measure (default
is 75%) Treble.
Regarding why do it this way. First, I agree with you that it would be
easier for everyone just to make both clefs in Measure 1 Treble Clefs,
and after all this, that is what I may do -- I'm going to discuss this
with my students this week to see which way is easier to read -- to me
and I'm sure you three, it makes no difference. You will have no
trouble looking through your music and music your students use and
finding examples of [Bass Clef sign, Time Signature, smaller Treble
Clef sign, notes -- and it's upper clef counterpart]. Whether it's the
belief that it's better by composers, editors or publishers, it is
somewhat common. I'll be happy to attach scans of examples to an email
reply if you'll email me through Reply to author.
Neil Miller, author of The Piano Lessons Book
Enter in Amazon.com search: Neil Miller Piano Lessons Book
Neil sent me a couple of examples, and I owe him an apology for saying
that I hadn't seen that notation. His two examples were from pieces I
know very well; in fact one that I've played at least once a week for
years! Sorry Neil! Seeing your examples was a real "DOH!" moment for
me.
Don't know why it sounds (to me) so odd when described in words. It
might be an oversight in Finale that they don't make it especially
easy to notate what is obviously a long-standing traditional form
among music engravers. |
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| Melodious Thunk... |
| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:37 am |
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On Jun 24, 11:47 am, "Steve Latham" <llat... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Quote: "Melodious Thunk" <thunk.melodi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:83d7681b-bb3d-4765-9b13-
Neil sent me a couple of examples, and I owe him an apology for saying
that I hadn't seen that notation. His two examples were from pieces I
know very well; in fact one that I've played at least once a week for
years! Sorry Neil! Seeing your examples was a real "DOH!" moment for
me.
What are the pieces?
Steve
2nd movement from Beethoven's Pathetique Op. 13 (which I play
constantly); and 3rd movement from Mozart's last sonata K. 576. |
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| Steve Latham... |
| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:47 pm |
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"Melodious Thunk" <thunk.melodious at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:83d7681b-bb3d-4765-9b13-
Neil sent me a couple of examples, and I owe him an apology for saying
that I hadn't seen that notation. His two examples were from pieces I
know very well; in fact one that I've played at least once a week for
years! Sorry Neil! Seeing your examples was a real "DOH!" moment for
me.
What are the pieces?
Steve |
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| David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*... |
| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:51 am |
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Melodious Thunk <thunk.melodious at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Jun 24, 11:47 am, "Steve Latham" <llat... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
"Melodious Thunk" <thunk.melodi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:83d7681b-bb3d-4765-9b13-
Neil sent me a couple of examples, and I owe him an apology for saying
that I hadn't seen that notation. His two examples were from pieces I
know very well; in fact one that I've played at least once a week for
years! Sorry Neil! Seeing your examples was a real "DOH!" moment for
me.
What are the pieces?
Steve
2nd movement from Beethoven's Pathetique Op. 13 (which I play
constantly);
The urtext edition I have (UE) doesn't do this. However, I have
certainly noticed the practise in various editions....
--
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about.
Otherwise they should just shut up about it." -Richard Dawkins |
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| Steve Latham... |
| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:26 am |
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"Melodious Thunk" <thunk.melodious at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:36b81f58-15a3-427c-ae30-07ceb72bc0b3 at (no spam) r37g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 24, 11:47 am, "Steve Latham" <llat... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Quote: "Melodious Thunk" <thunk.melodi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:83d7681b-bb3d-4765-9b13-
Neil sent me a couple of examples, and I owe him an apology for saying
that I hadn't seen that notation. His two examples were from pieces I
know very well; in fact one that I've played at least once a week for
years! Sorry Neil! Seeing your examples was a real "DOH!" moment for
me.
What are the pieces?
Steve
2nd movement from Beethoven's Pathetique Op. 13 (which I play
constantly); and 3rd movement from Mozart's last sonata K. 576.
And yours begin with a Bass clef in the LH staff and then after the meter
signature have a treble clef?
Schirmer editions (that's what I have so I can compare once I get of my lazy
butt).
Steve |
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| Melodious Thunk... |
| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:51 pm |
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On Jun 25, 7:26 am, "Steve Latham" <llat... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Quote: "Melodious Thunk" <thunk.melodi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:36b81f58-15a3-427c-ae30-07ceb72bc0b3 at (no spam) r37g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 24, 11:47 am, "Steve Latham" <llat... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
"Melodious Thunk" <thunk.melodi... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:83d7681b-bb3d-4765-9b13-
Neil sent me a couple of examples, and I owe him an apology for saying
that I hadn't seen that notation. His two examples were from pieces I
know very well; in fact one that I've played at least once a week for
years! Sorry Neil! Seeing your examples was a real "DOH!" moment for
me.
What are the pieces?
Steve
2nd movement from Beethoven's Pathetique Op. 13 (which I play
constantly); and 3rd movement from Mozart's last sonata K. 576.
And yours begin with a Bass clef in the LH staff and then after the meter
signature have a treble clef?
Schirmer editions (that's what I have so I can compare once I get of my lazy
butt).
Steve
I no longer have my Schirmer books (dutifully passed 'em to my little
brother when he started getting serious), so mine are photocopies from
German editions that I found in the university's collection (UH). I
don't have the publisher/engraver info., although they're nicely
engraved.
I do know that some of the fingerings, i.e. the Rondo from the
Pathetique, are different than the Schirmer. My muscle memory was
built on the Schirmer fingerings, so I stumbled the 1st time I tried
the Rondo from this German version. I subsequently remembered the old
fingerings & have since lived a charmed life.  |
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